Driver vs Iron Swing

[PBC]

Given all the new trends and technology, is it still 'recommended' to have the same swing with your driver as with your irons?
Granted that the differences are minimal, but I used to mentally try to be less aggressive with my weight shift to the left foot (right handed golfer) with my driver. As opposed to iron shots where I try to have 90% of my weight on the left side when striking the ball?

Recent practice session have shown me that an aggressive (or should I say "solid") weight shift to the left provide a more powerful strike with the driver while avoiding the insanely high ball trajectory.

As an aside, it looks to me that most PGA pros use the exact same swing for both driver and irons.

Thanks in advance,

-PBC

[Goshawk]

For the most part, the full swing should be the same regardless of which club you're using. The only part of the swing that will be different is the angle of attack. Woods, long irons and hybrids will have a shallower angle (sweeping angle) than mid-irons, and the short irons/wedges have an even more steep angle of attack. This is based on the length of the shafts and the type of contact you're trying to make; i.e. you're trying to take a divot with a pitching wedge - you wouldn't use the same technique with a 3-wood on a tee.

[Eldred]

Very true..this year I've been working a lot more with my driver with better results.
I'm so attached to that swing now that my short games are going haywire.. Video shows that I might address the wedge shot correctly (arms close to the body), I have the tendency to reach out on the downswing which would be more similar to my driver swing... and voila, the hosel contact. Some rounds, I wish there are more par 5s, because I'd rather be hitting Driver, 5 wood into the green than some wedge shots around the 100 yards..

[bobblehead]

Very true..this year I've been working a lot more with my driver with better results.
I'm so attached to that swing now that my short games are going haywire..

Now you tell me...I almost got killed by your wedge shank at Pineview

[buykrux]

i have always played my driver AT my front foot
ball parallel with my outside of my front foot
not sure why, always felt more comfortable with it
irons are mid
wedges all depend son what i want to hit
whatever works for you and make u feel confident

[sharon.gmc]

I'm learning a lot from you guys. . . Thank you!!! This is a wonderful site!!

[Crackberry]

The only part of the swing that will be different is the angle of attack. Woods, long irons and hybrids will have a shallower angle (sweeping angle) than mid-irons, and the short irons/wedges have an even more steep angle of attack. This is based on the length of the shafts and the type of contact you're trying to make; i.e. you're trying to take a divot with a pitching wedge - you wouldn't use the same technique with a 3-wood on a tee.

Do you feel that the angle of attack is changed by the player or simply because the longer shaft creates more energy moving away from the player and therefore CREATES this more shallow path?

I read a great article recently about Bubba Watson VS. Charles Howell as it relates to driver loft. BW's PING dirver is around 7 degrees while CH has 12 degrees on his Callaway. They showed BW hitting it on the upswing and CH hitting "down on it".

[BC MIST]

I read a great article recently about Bubba Watson VS. Charles Howell as it relates to driver loft. BW's PING dirver is around 7 degrees while CH has 12 degrees on his Callaway. They showed BW hitting it on the upswing and CH hitting "down on it".

If it is true that a higher launch/low spin shot is more effective then it seems this can be achieved with what BW does. The problem with this, however, is that to hit the ball on the upswing, as BW does, we mortals, have to deliberately hang back, reducing the weight shift, AND, likely release the leverage angles of the trail elbow and hand, earlier than is ideal, to hit the ball higher. Both distance and accuracy if consequently reduced.

Are we then not better off to have a steeper angle of attack to maintain the leverage angles, where keeping the lead wrist flat and the trail wrist bent is so much easier to attain?

[Sparkplug]

Just a note here.

You may have seen my post on my struggles with the short game.

But I have always been a very consitent and long driver of the ball. OK not 300yds long but my average is 262 which is better than most and iI easily hit 75%+ of all fairways. And I can work it baby, left to right and right to left. Just wait until I get my hip operation and i will be banging it out an extra 10 yeards. Prior to hip problems my driving average was 272 and that was with those old stainless steel drivers.

I believe it is all in the set up. The set up prepares you to achieve contact either either at the bottom of the swing or on a slightly upward angle. This depends upon final ball placement relative to the body.

It also provides remarkable consistency.

For BC Mist. BTW all golf shots should have the hands ahead of the club at impact which results in a flat left wrist.

So here is my very simple method that I employ. Incorporate this set up, then just swing baby and you will be accurate and consitent. Length comes with this method as confidence grows.

Pick your target line using your ball and a point of reference about 3 feet ahead of the ball. Stand behind your ball to do this. So many golfers set up right its not funny.

Stand square to this target line with your feet together with the ball off of your left toe.

Let you driver rest on the ground with the shaft exactly perpendicular to the target line and exactly bisecting your body (for the less PC it should be pointing directly at your groin area). In other words half your body is in front of the shaft and half behind.

The driver, when resting on the ground should look closed to the target.

Then and only then grip your club and make sure your shoulders are square to the target. DO NOT MANIPULIATE THE CLUB IN YOUR HANDS. The driver will still look closed.

For BC Mist;this will set up so when a flat left wrist/hands ahead of target impact potition is reached the driver will be square to target.

Now.

For contact on an up swing widen your stance only moving your right foot back. make sure the foot goes straight back and not to an open or closed position. The result is High Ball Flight.

For contact at the botom of the swing move your left foot a few (only two to three) inches toward the target and your right foot back to your normal width of stance. You have it right when the ball is directly under your left shoulder socket. This promotes a lower ball flight.

For old fogeys like me I open up my left foot and bring it back one inch open to help me get around.

OK so what does this look like. Everything is behind the ball. The club head, obviously, THE DRIVER CLUB HEAD WILL LOOK CLOSED OR POINTING LEFT OF TARGET. The shaft will either look like it is straight up and down or pointing away from the target with your hands on top or behind the club head. Your head is behind all of this.

Now rotate your head slightly to the right and keep it there a la Nicklaus.

Then swing away baby and you will be down the middle, and likely longer.

Want to draw it make sure the ball is under the left shoulder socket and move your right foot behind one inch rather than square. Want to fade it move it ahead of the shoulder socket.

In essence once you are set up even a mediocre swing will achieve better results.

PS got this lesson from a gold pro when we hit real wood woods. I was at a tourny and Furyk does the exact same thing.

For Lefty's reverse everything or give up the game because you are all the devil's children .

Happy New Year

[BC MIST]

Just a note here.....s the exact same thing.

In other words, for a normal shot, set up parallel to your target line and play the ball forward for a higher shot.

While the choice of words may not be important, it must be understood that a pure draw ball flight comes from a SQUARE setup, an INSIDE club head path and a slightly OPEN club face at SEPARATION. This causes the ball to start right of target line and gently curve back to the target line. Reverse this for a pure fade. To hit a pure draw, there will be a distinct plane shift of the arms at the start of the downswing so that the hands and the club shaft are on or under the shaft axis plane established at address. While this motion may not be fully understood, it is one that 95+% golfers do NOT do.

Your "draw" setup, i.e., a 1" closed stance will produce a normal shot as it's the alignment of the club face and the shoulders that will encourage a right to left or a left to right flight. A 1" change in your foot alignment will have no affect on the shoulder or club face alignment and so you have to consciously change both of these as well, which is my guess as to what you actually do.

To maneuver the ball right to left, close the club face at address and then position your body so that the face is pointing at the target or just right of it. This will result in your body being aligned to the right, the ball will start on your body line and curve back to the target line. This is a hook, not a draw. Doing the opposite, of course will get the left to right flight. Regardless of all of this, you obviously have good control over your driver ball flight and that's the ultimate goal.

Each golfer must determine his own individual ball position as, in part, this is influenced greatly by how strong or weak his grip is. A golfer showing "3 or 4 knuckles" in the top hand will have to play the ball farther back to have a square face at separation and "1 knuckler" will have to play the ball up.

But the real question raised in the last couple of posts deals with angle of attack and loft. For my game, a very low lofted driver, 7.5*, is preferred because with it I can hit the ball both low and very high as needed, by consciously altering the A of A, but with a higher lofted driver, I can only hit it high or higher.

[Powerdraw]

To hit a pure draw, there will be a distinct plane shift of the arms at the start of the downswing so that the hands and the club shaft are on or under the shaft axis plane established at address. While this motion may not be fully understood, it is one that 95+% golfers do NOT do.

.

BC, i am very interested in your above quote about the plane shift described...i am not sure about what you are describing, but it is very difficult to do unless you zero out the left armshaft relationship imo. most golfers setup with low hands but to swing on plane one must get that right forearm back in line with the shaft at impact, either there is a big contortionnist move or an offplane move.

Could you describe how to or what you are describing as to hit a pure draw move?

thanks!

[Crackberry]

The club can come into the ball under the original shaft plane as set by address by having the club moving into the ball from a path inside to the target line and moving towards the original shaft plane - or in a sense, moving out towards the ball. For this to happen, the golfer's swing center must be in front of the ball.

I assume that the only way to get this shaft plane shift is to have the center of mass or pressure (sometimes describes as weight) in front of the ball prior to impact. I can see this in my mind better than I can describe... maybe someone can help with this idea.

[BC MIST]

Could you describe how to or what you are describing as to hit a pure draw move?

NOTE: I tried to upload a file with pictures to accompany my notes below but it would not work as the file is supposedly invalid (Word document). If you could send me a private message and include an email address, I will send the file to you. LA

From the pictures below, he top or more vertical line represents the “turned shoulder plane” (TSP), that is, the line drawn from the ball through the right shoulder at the top of the backswing, while the other line is the “shaft axis plane,” (SAP) the line from the ball up the shaft as it sits in the address position.

When the golfer’s hands, (John Dunnigan, )are hip high in the backswing, they are ON the SAP, AND the club shaft coincides with the SAP. (Picture not shown) At this point the hands rise and at the top of the backswing (top picture) they are ON the TSP, and notice, as well, that his right elbow touches the SAP. Here then, he is perfectly “ON PLANE.” This BTW, is the first plane shift.

The next motion is the most crucial and is one that is seldom seen in the swings of we mortals. Most golfers bring their hands down either along the TSP or slightly under it and this is NOT desirable. Instead, the idea is to now have the hands move immediately BACK towards the camera and then DOWN towards the SAP, and once reached, follow this path to the ball. (Second plane shift) Look closely at the second pic. You can see John’s hands are to the left of his right shoulder showing that they have moved back first before they go down pr even out. When the hands are just below hip high, the club shaft will either coincide with the SAP or be a little under it. This is evident in the pic at the bottom and guarantees an inside path to the ball. You can also see how “flat” the shaft is at this point.

In the bottom pic, you can see that there is NOT a lot of body movement compared to what is often taught. The body moves in anticipation of the arms dropping and continues moving in response to them, rather than the golfer consciously moving the body forward first, which some believe causes the arms to drop. In John’s literature he writes that a horizontal movement of the hips will NOT cause a vertical motion of the arms and so those who drive the hips will not be able to have the hands and club shaft return to the shaft axis plane and will be “over the top.” I would anticipate disagreement from Crackberry on this point.

The other aspect of the “pure draw” is a slightly open club face at separation. This is something that is not consciously created during the swing but is achieved by the golfer first swinging back and down on plane, followed by adjusting his grip until the right to centre ball flight occurs.

This kind of swing technique eliminates the need for compensation motions that are necessary if the hands and the club shaft come down on a more vertical plane. Good golf can be played that way but it requires a lot of ability to repeat these compensations. Learning to flatten the downswing by moving BACK, DOWN and then OUT in that order, will provide all of us with the consistency that so many desire. The feeling is perhaps best described by Moe Norman who once said that he and Ben Hogan were trying to put their hands in their back right pocket, at the start of the downswing.

Further explanations can be found at http://www.golfbetterproductions.com.

[Powerdraw]

BC,

thank you for your post and pics. I thought as long as someone swings on the TSP and not over that, they were good to go. what you describe is for a draw or any type of shot? As for being on plane, i think one only needs the butt of club pointing at the plane-targetline to be considered on plane, no?

Meself i have a very flattish swing, butt of club points a few feet outside of targetline, i get it back on the SAP from release point too impact but oh the struggle. Ive done laser work and the like but, without much good results. I tend to push the ball alot, draw the ball a whole lot or hit hooks. The push is what hurts the most. But on the days the ball draws back, i score real good. But when it doesnt...scramble city.

Back to the subject at hand, what you are describing as the draw swing, would you use it for irons as well? any shot? or just a go to?

thanks!

[Crackberry]

a horizontal movement of the hips will NOT cause a vertical motion of the arms and so those who drive the hips will not be able to have the hands and club shaft return to the shaft axis plane and will be “over the top.”

I don't disagree with this statement. If a player has a long backswing and allows the trailing elbow to seperate alot from the body, there has to be a vertical motion of the arms, and you're right.. the horizontal movement of the hips will not make this happen.

For those players with a tighter, shorter, and more compact swing, there may not be room for a vertical drop and the hip's horizontal and rotational movement should be enough.

Dunigan's info is solid. great link.

[BC MIST]

I thought as long as someone swings on the TSP and not over that, they were good to go. what you describe is for a draw or any type of shot? As for being on plane, i think one only needs the butt of club pointing at the plane-targetline to be considered on plane, no? Back to the subject at hand, what you are describing as the draw swing, would you use it for irons as well? any shot? or just a go to?

Frankly, I don't understand everything, yet, but I am working on it.

Mark Evershed states that as long as the butt end of the club is pointing to the target line, one is on plane. Therefore, it would seem that if the shaft returns to the ball along the turned shoulder plane AND is pointing at the target line, all should be OK. However, having videoed swings of a number of golfers, whether in person or on TV, those who have the right forearm and club shaft aligned when the hands are just below hip high in the downswing hit the ball consistently straight or with a slight draw. Those with a more vertical shaft than this, tend to be less consistent as it seems that they more frequently block the ball to the right or flip the hands over coming through and hook the ball.

While I see the shaft and forearm being aligned as important, IMO, it is OK to for the downswing plane to be a little above the actual shaft axis plane, but that plane is variable depending on how "high" or how "low" the hands are held in the address position. As most golfers address the ball with the toe of the club in a slightly toe up position, and if the shaft were to come through impact in the exact position, the ball would curve slightly left because of the slightly upright lie angle of the head. This is why, regardless of how we swing, having one's lie angles dynamically checked is so important.

IMO, the more ideal swing motion is that of a single AXIS swing (not to be confused with the one or two planed swings) because the turned shoulder plane AND the shaft axis plane almost coincide, or as in the case of Moe Norman, do coincide. The less the amount of plane shift from backswing to downswing, the easier it should be to return the club to the ball consistently square.

If one doubts the validity of a flat downswing plane angle, one should ask what many of the great golfers did to their swings over time, to become even more consistent ball strikers, and the simple answer is, "They flattened their swings." Hogan, Nicklaus, Norman (Greg), Price, Faldo, AND Tiger Woods, and many more, ALL flattened their swings and became better ball strikers.

Personally, when I feel or consciously make a plane shaft at the transition, I now draw the ball. This allows me to hit the ball a little lower and from that flight, I am able to pick up a few extra yards of roll, which I certainly need. Without the feel of the plane shift, I normally hit the ball straight, which sounds more ideal, but reduces my margin for error. Knowing which way the ball is going to curve is advantageous over not knowing which way it is going to go.

[Powerdraw]

ok, so what i understand here is that you deliberately shift back down to say an elbow plane (double shift). And that this has better desired ballflight than your standard maybe zero shift? In either case, what type of shoulder turn do you use? would it be flat or rotated?

[BC MIST]

ok, so what i understand here is that you deliberately shift back down to say an elbow plane (double shift). And that this has better desired ballflight than your standard maybe zero shift? In either case, what type of shoulder turn do you use? would it be flat or rotated?

Not sure what you mean by flat or rotated. I believe that my shoulder turn angle at the top is perpendicular to my spine.