Casual Water - Playing Two Balls

[BC MIST]

At the recent OCAA golf championship, the players were informed that if there was any doubt as to how to proceed during play, that they were to play two balls and get a ruling from either Gerry or myself later. This scenario is hypothetical but based on a similar incident.

On a hole a player hit his ball into an area of casual water and was lost. As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the casual water, he dropped a ball approximately 5 yards back, along a line connecting the point where he felt the ball crossed the margin of the casual water and the hole, and played it. (added later for clarification)

Upon walking by the area of casual water he spotted his original ball in it and decided to invoke rule 3-3 as instructed, and play two balls. He dropped the original ball within 1 club length of the nearest point of relief. He then played out the hole with both the dropped ball ball and the original ball, scoring a 6 with the dropped ball and a 5 with the original ball.

What is the ruling and what score would he have for the hole?

[jvincent]

Did he make a stroke at the first ball he dropped?

[Kiwi battler]

He cant use 3-3 in this situation ....but no penalty for putting the 2nd ball into play



His score is 6 ... assuming the ball was dropped withen the allowable area ....and not some 5 yards behind that area ...

[BC MIST]

Did he make a stroke at the first ball he dropped?

Yes, scoring a 6.

[BC MIST]

His score is 6 ... assuming the ball was dropped withen the allowable area ....and not some 5 yards behind that area ...

"he dropped a ball approximately 5 yards back,"

"He then played out the hole with both the dropped ball ball... scoring a 6 with the dropped ball..."

[rezadue]

Totally uneducated guess:

But I think that since he deemed his ball lost in casual water, and that he made a stroke at the dropped ball, the second ball (dropped ball) is in play and the first is now dead.

No harm or penalties in playing the original, as it was instructed by the officials to do so in case of uncertainty.


The only thing I am not sure of, is if his drop was legal or not and whether he incurs a penalty. It occurs to me that he must find the margin of the casual water and drop a ball within one club length of that margin. The fact that he dropped some 5 yards behind the causal water margin seems in appropriate.

So I think the players gets 6+ 2 for playing the ball from an incorrect spot=8

[LobWedge]

Did he make a stroke at the first ball he dropped?

Yes, scoring a 6.

To expand on jvincent's question, did he play a stroke at the dropped ball before finding his original ball in the AGC?

Which ball did he declare to his FC's that he was going to count, before playing from the next teeing ground?

As well, you say that he invoked 3-3 "as instructed". By whom?

[BC MIST]

To expand on jvincent's question, did he play a stroke at the dropped ball before finding his original ball in the AGC?

Which ball did he declare to his FC's that he was going to count, before playing from the next teeing ground?

As well, you say that he invoked 3-3 "as instructed". By whom?

Yes.

I did not ask. Getting the player's to play two balls or to play a provisional when needed, is a significant accomplishment.

The coaches instructed their respective teams that, when in doubt, to play two balls.

What really happened is not exactly as described above. I changed a couple of details to increase the challenge a little.

[LobWedge]

Yes.

I did not ask. Getting the player's to play two balls or to play a provisional when needed, is a significant accomplishment.

The coaches instructed their respective teams that, when in doubt, to play two balls.

What really happened is not exactly as described above. I changed a couple of details to increase the challenge a little.

No worries. Just clarificatin' (as 'Dubyuh' would say).

[Kiwi battler]

This is a mess ........we need more info

Was the original ball lost by definition ?
Was the subsituted ball dropped withen a clublength of the nearest point of relief from where it last crossed the margin of the casual water ?

[justsomeguy]

This is a mess ........we need more info

Was the original ball lost by definition ?

It was lost in casual water. That should be all the info you need.

Was the subsituted ball dropped withen a clublength of the nearest point of relief from where it last crossed the margin of the casual water ?

I would think the answer is "no", since a club that is "approximately 5 yards" in length would be illegal.

[justsomeguy]

BTW, I would rule that there is no penalty and he scores a 5.

[Kiwi battler]

re-reading the OP ....yes it appears he dropped in the wrong place ... so faces 2 penalty shots

If the original ball was lost by difinition ...he cannot play it , nor take relief with it
In doing so , this ball cannot count , but 3-3 appears to let him off any possible penalties

So the ball dropped 5 yards back becomes the original as far as 3-3 goes , and the now substituted "lost" ball becomes void

He scores a 6 with the new ball , + 2 penalty shots for playing from a wrong place ....making 8

[justsomeguy]

...and here is why I would rule no penalty and his score is a 5 (from Rule 3-3):

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

[LobWedge]

...and here is why I would rule no penalty and his score is a 5 (from Rule 3-3):

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

Ah, but he did take further action. He played a stroke at the ball with which he took incorrect relief (dropping the ball 5 yards behind the casual water, instead of finding his NPR and one club length as required by Rule 25-1b(i)), prior to invoking 3-3. If he had invoked 3-3 before making a stroke at the ball, he would have been covered and allowed to declare which ball he would score with prior to laying from the next teeing ground. Because he played the ball prior to invoking 3-3, it is moot, and he is penalized 2 strokes under Rule 25 for taking incorrect relief from the condition.

[BC MIST]

Jeepers!! Is my writing so bad that it causes mass confusion or is it that some just don't read?

-On a hole a player hit his ball into an area of casual water and was lost. Do I have to use the expression "HAS NOT BEEN FOUND" to convey the fact that the ball was lost in CW?
-he dropped a ball approximately 5 yards back,Does this mean that it appears to have been dropped 5 yards back...?
-He then played out the hole with both the dropped ball ball and the original ball, Maybe I should have stated that he played a ball, "incorrectly substituted under an inapplicable rule?"
-scoring a 6 with the dropped ball and a 5 with the original ball.Sorry, substituted ball.

Time to move on.

[LobWedge]

Jeepers!! Is my writing so bad that it causes mass confusion or is it that some just don't read?

-On a hole a player hit his ball into an area of casual water and was lost. Do I have to use the expression "HAS NOT BEEN FOUND" to convey the fact that the ball was lost in CW?
-he dropped a ball approximately 5 yards back,Does this mean that it appears to have been dropped 5 yards back...?
-He then played out the hole with both the dropped ball ball and the original ball, Maybe I should have stated that he played a ball, "incorrectly substituted under an inapplicable rule?"
-scoring a 6 with the dropped ball and a 5 with the original ball.Sorry, substituted ball.

Time to move on.

I'm fairly sure I read it right, didn't I?

[BC MIST]

I'm fairly sure I read it right, didn't I?

100% correct. And resadue, too. Did I miss anyone?

[justsomeguy]

Ah, but he did take further action. He played a stroke at the ball with which he took incorrect relief (dropping the ball 5 yards behind the casual water, instead of finding his NPR and one club length as required by Rule 25-1b(i)), prior to invoking 3-3.

Correct - and that was my point. Because he took further action, then as stated Rule 3-3 is not applicable. As I understand the Note, the score with the original ball MUST count and nothing that happens with the second ball is relevant. The player basically has NO CHOICE which ball counts - it MUST be the original ball.

In this situation, it just happened to be that the original ball was the one that he played correctly and scored lower.

[Kiwi battler]

You better go take another look at where to drop a ball when a ball is K/VC to be lost in an abnormal ground condition

[AAA]

His first ball (A) has been deemed lost when he put ball B into play. (edited to correct to no penalty) As he hadn't yet invoked 3-3 when he dropped and played a ball 5 yards back, that ball has has now been substituted for the original ball. But from a wrong place (2 penalties). But no serious breach so no requirement to correct the situation.
When he tries to invoke 3-3 that ball (B) is now the 'original' ball referred to in the rule. The ball he found in the casual water (A) was and is lost and 'out of it'. Any subsequent strokes made with A do not count in his score.

[Kiwi battler]

where does "1 penalty" come from ??

[AAA]

Doh !!!
The thread had been going on for so long I had forgotten it was lost in casual water.

Just making sure you were awake

[Kiwi battler]

So we are almost all agreed the player took an 8 on that hole

[justsomeguy]

His first ball (A) has been deemed lost when he put ball B into play. (edited to correct to no penalty) As he hadn't yet invoked 3-3 when he dropped and played a ball 5 yards back, that ball has has now been substituted for the original ball. But from a wrong place (2 penalties). But no serious breach so no requirement to correct the situation.
When he tries to invoke 3-3 that ball (B) is now the 'original' ball referred to in the rule. The ball he found in the casual water (A) was and is lost and 'out of it'. Any subsequent strokes made with A do not count in his score.

It seems odd to me that the original ball played from the tee is not in fact the "original" ball in this situation, but even if that is the case then wouldn't this part of the Note to 3-3 let him off the hook for extra penalty strokes:

...the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball.

BTW, it seems to me that the player originally believed that the casual water was a water hazard, and dropped accordingly (and correctly for that situation). Of course I'm assuming that his score of 6 included a penalty stroke under Rule 26 which, with our 20/20 hindsight, it turns out that he did not have to take.

[Kiwi battler]

"...the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball."

The above statement simply tells us which score must count .....it doesnt let him off the 2 shot penalty for dropping in the wrong place

The LOST ball ceased to be the original ball as soon as it was deemed lost
The dropped ball became the ball in play , it took on status of original ball as soon as another ball was played under 3-3 ...once a ball is lost , it becomes "a ball" if found again

[AAA]

BTW, it seems to me that the player originally believed that the casual water was a water hazard, and dropped accordingly (and correctly for that situation). Of course I'm assuming that his score of 6 included a penalty stroke under Rule 26 which, with our 20/20 hindsight, it turns out that he did not have to take.

That crossed my mind for a moment but there is no suggestion that the water was overspill. I believe he simply didn't know the correct relief procedure.

[BC MIST]

[/I]BTW, it seems to me that the player originally believed that the casual water was a water hazard,

On a hole a player hit his ball into an area of casual water

FWIW, the only fact that I changed from what really happened was the location of the drop of the substituted ball, which was done in the correct place. All hazards were correctly marked and because it had rained heavily the previous evening and all day during the second round, there were large areas of casual water everywhere. Of course, the original ball became out of play once the substituted ball was dropped and his score was determined through the SB. In the hypothetical above, the score would be 8.

[Kiwi battler]

SB dropped in the correct place? either a typo ? or the casual water was quite a large area and the 5 yards took him to the correct spot to drop ?
Which is why I questioned it way way back

[LobWedge]

SB dropped in the correct place? either a typo ? or the casual water was quite a large area and the 5 yards took him to the correct spot to drop ?
Which is why I questioned it way way back

He meant the ball was dropped correctly in the actual situation, not the hypothetical one.