Rants and Raves

[JimmyW]

All quiet on the Eastern front here apparently, so I thought I'd either regail you all with my poetry readings -- or start a new R&R thread about things that are good or bad in the world of golf.

Rave- I was in Halifax last month and I saw what could only be described as the best practice (driving) range I have ever seen. On all of the mats (approx 40) there was a little plexi-glass legand mounted in front of each mat with the EXACT yardage to the half-dozen flagsticks (w/ greens) placed all over the range.

It had it all; 127 to the checkered, 167 to the red, 218, 245, etc. etc...

The best part...to one side (30% total) of the range there was a monster (15-20 thousand sq.ft.) "green" placed 90-120 yds out that was real grass w/ the fertilizer pumped right to it. The nitrogen made it a perfect looking "green" that had three flags w/ yardages on it and gave you something definite to aim for. A joy to be at for hours.

Rant- Your relaxing round is the guy behind you's cursing at the slow idiot ahead of him (you).
True story. Best round of my life. On the 15th green and still in the 60's (68 and putting). The foursome ahead had just teed of on the 16th and were walking down the fairway. I'm getting ready to putt and from behind I hear "For f*** sakes just GO". I look back and see a guy on the other side of the lake (150 back) making hurry-up motions. I still honestly don't know why I didn't go back and drill a ball at him.

What would you have done? Please answer truthfully

JW

PS Shot 87

[NoBack]

Although I dont like slow play, I dont think you were out of turn if the group ahead just left the tee box in front of you. Thats why they tee us up 8 minutes appart (more at the Creek!!). If I had heard that guy I can only asume I would have turned to him and said : "For F*** sakes, now YOU broke my concentration and I'll have to start my routine all over". Then proceed to do so.

Just a thought!

[HÄnd|cÄp]

flame flame flame see below!

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by JimmyW
The foursome ahead had just teed of on the 16th and were walking down the fairway.

Originally posted by HÄnd|cÄp
you are obviously a slow golfer and were doing things that annoyed that group repeatedly. I think you should think about taking up another sport, one that is more slow paced...like walking.
Slow play is annoying. I bet you take 5 practice swings over every shot and plumb bob every angle of a 2 foot putt. Moral of the story...hurry the $#%* up!
geez...

HÄnd|cÄp:
From the description given, Jimmy was not out of position and the person behind him was just impatient. This is just as annoying as slow play.

It is one thing to politely stir the pot, but these comments are offensive. This board is held to a high standard and "Flames" directed at any participant will not be tolerated.

Please consider this your only warning.
If you wish to discuss this, email me at dkilbank@ottawagolf.com DO NOT post a rebuttal here.
Feel free to aplologise to Jimmy if you are so inclined.

[JimmyW]

This is apparently difficult for you to understand, so I'll try to use smaller words.

You obviously are one of those golfers who think that it's a major accomplishment to golf a round in 3hrs or less. There is something to be said for people who lack the patience or comprehension to fully appreciate a game that requires skill, courtesy, and the ability to interact with others.

Oops, big words again. Let me see if I can simplify this a little for those who missed the point.

Golf course time policy 4:15

Time to 15th green 3:20

Tee since (occasionally)
waiting for group ahead 11th

Time between tee-offs 8 min

Time to walk from 15th
green to 16th tee 1 min

Time that group behind
you should be 8 min

Notice that none of the numbers are more than 11, so you should be able to understand the above without resorting to removing any footware

If you are content to "play" at golf, fine. If by chance or luck you happen to be half-decently good at it, all the better for you. However I have at least one rule that I strongly adhere to; if someones ball from behind me lands ahead of me without good reason, it's mine. I've picked them up, kept them, and talked to the wannabees that wanted them back. It's surprising how meek and uncertain people become once they're confronted directly without the cushion of distance or anonymity to shield them.

JW-1 H-0

You opened your mouth....errrrr

[statsfreak]

Since the original question was...

What would you have done? Please answer truthfully

JW


If you know you were not playing slow and holding up the course, then it seems to me that the correct answer is to ignore the loud coot, carry on with your play as best as possible, and speak with the course management following the round and have them take action against the person. Turning around and drilling a ball back at them, or any other form of aggression will likely only make matters worse.

I hope you weren't looking for support for taking matters into your own hands by your original posting.

[JimmyW]

Originally posted by statsfreak
Since the original question was...

What would you have done? Please answer truthfully

JW

I hope you weren't looking for support for taking matters into your own hands by your original posting.

I was unaware that I had taken matters into my own hand by doing anything. I told what I felt like doing, not what I did (or didn't do).I was not looking for support, only opinions. I was also wondering if you could clarify your last line for me if you don't mind.

[HÄnd|cÄp]

I apologize for flaming you but....


Obviously we are hearing one side of the story here, and if this guy was mad enough to be yelling this to you there was obviously a reason for it. People who are guilty of slow play and not keeping the pace of play rarely realize they are doing it.
It is very frustrating to players like myself who enjoy fast play...and yes a 3 hour and 20 round is the best way to play golf IMHO.
If the pace of play is a 4.5 hour round you should keep that pace, if the pace of play is a 3.5 hour round...then keep it up....it's good for golf. Nothing worse than seeing open holes in front of groups and seeing amateurs take time over a shot like they were on the final 3 of the US Open.
And it is far more frustrating to be waiting over every shot and losing your rythme than to be yelled at for taking too long over the ball (not that I would know )
If this is meant to be a gripe thread than that is my gripe, nothing ruins the golf "experience" more than slow play or annoying pre-shot routines - which drain your energy to watch.
I'm simply playing devil's advocate for the guy that yelled who is not here to defend himself. Now if he had hit his ball into the green before you got off of it than you would have rights to fire it back at him...which I have done on a few occasions as well.

But I still believe if this guy was mad enough to yell at you, there was a reason for it and perhaps it will make you more concious of your play in the future. So for the guy who is not afraid to yell it out and speak his mind to the players who are slowing the game down - I say "Hooray!"

(yes I replied Dan, you can ban me if you like - but I speak the truth and sometimes the truth hurts. Do not forget though that I have been playing this game all of my life and have seen a lot of stuff that annoys the average - good player, and is usually it goes unsaid...well here is a chance to say it. )

[Kilroy]

As I attempted to make clear earlier;
Spirited discussion is perfectly OK.
Personal attacks/flames are not.
'nuff said. Thank you for your co-operation.

Now, on to more interesting things...

In my opinion, anyone who intentionally launches a golf ball in the direction of other players on the course with a posibility of reaching them, should be kicked off the course. This does not apply to a player hitting a once in a lifetime shot into the group ahead, but certainly does apply to "hitting it back at them" or trying to push a group allong by firing one over the bow. Please do not hit it back at them.

I usulally put the ball on a tee and leave it there. That sends a message without starting a fight. If it happens again, I pick it up, and give it to the first marshall I see to give it back to them.

Just as unnerving, is listening to two groups fighting on the green behind me while I am trying to set up for my tee shot.

[HÄnd|cÄp]

more embarrassing is teeing up the golf ball, hitting the golf ball out of pure anger back at the offending group and because of the mad swing you take -- toeing it 2 fairways over and hitting the nearest marshall who you should have gave the ball too.

[NoBack]

ok .... I read the last few posts and I think the question still remains, was he slow or not? In my opinion he was NOT slow. Firstly, you never said what time of day it was for your round. Yes , it matters. If it is early morning than 4 hours is plenty. Afternoon rounds can be way too long in my opinion.
The group ahead (as he said) was leaving the next tee which after his group putts out would put them in the middle of the fairway and them on the tee. This is a good thing. I would rather still be putting than waiting for another group to hit off my tees.

As far as 3 hr rounds............been there, done that, and love it. I too play fast enough and walk fast enough for that kind of round. Although most rounds are in the four hour time. If it takes more than 4 and half hours, you're playing the wrong game!!! Now for people who like to push the group ahead......play very early in the morning and no one will bother you. First on first off.

[JimmyW]

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
As I attempted to make clear earlier;
Spirited discussion is perfectly OK.

A small selected pick of quotes and remarks from the last few days


"The foursome ahead had just teed of on the 16th and were walking down the fairway. I'm getting ready to putt and from behind I hear "For f*** sakes just GO".".
JW


"Slow play is annoying. I bet you take 5 practice swings over every shot and plumb bob every angle of a 2 foot putt. Moral of the story...hurry the $#%* up!
geez... "
Hdcp


Time between tee-offs 8 min

Time to walk from 15th green to 16th tee 1 min

Time that group behind you should be 8 min
JW

"Nothing worse than seeing open holes in front of groups and seeing amateurs take time over a shot like they were on the final 3 of the US Open."
Hdcp (Comment..I didn't realize you we're carded)


"Now if he had hit his ball into the green before you got off of it than you would have rights to fire it back at him...which I have done on a few occasions as well. "
Hdcp (Comment..Sorry Dan but if I'm reading this right & Hdcp was the one on the green then I have to say it, "H., why did the foursome hit into you, were you too slow??")


Apparently some people equate speed with capability.

JW

[Dustin]

My firsy year golfing....and i hate slow golfers.

Sure i may shoot 115-120 and my girlfriend 130, but we don't take paratice shots and what not, we walk up and hit the ball, very fast.

Having to sit and wait at a tee for people is unfair and ruins the game in my opinion.

speed it up folks

[Kilroy]

Take all the time you need over the ball. Take practice swings.

Once you have hit, move to your ball without undue delay (don't move in front of players in your group) and walk at a brisk pace. When it is your turn, be ready to play. Don't follow your buddy to the other side of the fairway and gab with him, when you should be going to your ball.

Once the hole is finished, get out of the way, so the folks in the fairway can hit to the green.

That is all it takes. I do not care what you shoot, if you do this, nobody will accuse you of slow play.

[statsfreak]

Good points Dan.

In addition to those, there are a couple of others which all golfers should practice regularly which would help speed up play. As far as I can tell the most useful are:

- if you don't find your ball within the first couple of minutes in the immediate area you think it should be, just give up and drop another. If you are playing Pro V1s I could understand wanting to spend the whole afternoon in the woods. But its not worth holding up the whole course for a $2 ball. Oh, and don't be afraid to play a provisional if it seems your ball might have landed in the next property and it can't be found!

- don't use every trip into the woods to stock up on your "balls with logos" collection. Better to dip into the used ball collection in the pro shop for that and just get on with play.

- when you walk up to the green, try to figure where the next tee is so you can place your bag on that side of the green and don't have to cross and re-cross the green once you've finished. And for goodness sake, don't think you have to mark your score before leaving the green.

- if you miss the beverage girl when she went by while you were putting remember, she'll be back around sometime before you finish. You don't have to go half way down the last fairway looking for her.

Just thought I would add a few of my favourites.

[JimmyW]

You're gonna LOVE me for this one Dustin ol' buddy.

First of all, before all the yelling and screaming and frantic keyboard-pounding starts again, I want to get something perfectly straight.

I've done the 3:10 rounds (6am)
I've done the 3:30 rounds (7am)
I've done the 3:45 rounds and
I've done the 4:30 rounds (1pm)

The way YOU portray your game to the rest of the players is dependant on two factors- internal and external. If you keep up to the players ahead of you w/o sacrificing your game the external is taken care of. If you don't mind waiting 1-2 minutes per hole the internal factor is taken care of as well.

The tricky part comes when (as I think I said on my first post at the top) "Your relaxing round is the guy behind you's cursing at the slow idiot ahead of him (you). "

IMHO there's nothing, NOTHING worse than someone staring at their watch, crossing their arms, and tapping their feet on the tee 200yds behind you. I can take the group ball-finders. I can take the army-golfers. I can even take the guys who "take 5 practice swings & plumb bob every 2 ft putt. " as long as there's some-one ahead of THEM. (That, my good man, is what cell-phones and marshals are for)

Originally posted by Dustin
My firsy year golfing....and i hate slow golfers.

Sure i may shoot 115-120 and my girlfriend 130, but we don't take paratice shots and what not, we walk up and hit the ball, very fast.

Having to sit and wait at a tee for people is unfair and ruins the game in my opinion.

speed it up folks

All I do is let whoever's behind me by, and then meet them again at every tee for the rest of the day.

JW:p

[em69]

I'm with Dan and Jimmy on this one.
As long as you are keeping pace with the group in front of you that is the best you can do.

Golf is supposed to be relaxing. Why would anyone go play the game and then get so worked up over something that is out of their control?

Enjoy the game or go buy your own course and play by yourself.

[spidey]

Keeping up is a good idea, in fact, if everybody is keeping up to the people in front, then there's precious little the marshals can do about it.

Unfortunately, I've played 5 hr. rounds where everybody is keeping up to everybody. Just because everybody is keeping up, doesn't mean that everybody is playing as expeditiously as they should. What really cheeses me off, is when you've come to the halfway mark, it's been 3:00, and the marshal nonchalantly talks about the day, and how everybody is keeping up so nicely...

Even worse, I've played a few times, where there is a group in front, they do everything slowly... EVERYTHING... except getting from the green to the next tee.... you never catch them to ask them to let you play through... there's a hole and a half in front of them, and the marshal says... "Oh, they've played the front nine in 2:35 minutes.. they're only a few minutes behind... I don't think I need to get them to let you through.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

On the other hand... I just try to use the opportunity to control my disgust, and learn to accommodate a slower pace of play.. it's usually the norm during a tournament anyway....

spidey in despair

[4jag]

In my experience the best way to speed up play is to play "ready golf".

I think all weekend warriors should play this way from tee to green. Resort back to playing in order once on the green.

Obviously there are safety considerations, you don't march 10 yards in front of someone to play your ball first but if you are on one side of the fairway and the rest of your group is on the other - go ahead and play regardless of who is away.

This goes against conventional golf etiquette but does wonders for speeding up the game.

[spidey]

There will never be a solution to slow play.

There will always be someone who wants to play his game in his own good time, and somebody behind him who wants to play one minute (or more) faster than he is already.

Unfortunately, Dan has missed the point with this one:

Dan says...
I do not care what you shoot, if you do this, nobody will accuse you of slow play.

I've played in many groups where WE were slow. I am a fast player, I've always been fast, but I can't make the others in my foursome faster by osmosis. I can mention to them that we're behind, I can encourage them to be expeditious, and I can even attempt to offer more gimme's. This rarely works, and people will continue to play to the speed that they feel is right.

Attitude is the biggest obstacle to expeditious play. In fact, the attitude I get when I ask to play through is usually confrontational. "NO, we're not letting you play through, why should we, we're playing at the PROPER speed!" Doesn't make any difference if it's written specifically on the scorecard that faster players should be allowed through, either. It apparently is my fault for playing quickly, or faster than they think I should.

I find the same attitude with hitting balls into the group ahead. There was a day that I hit balls into the group ahead twice. Feel free to jump all over me, I know it was wrong, but it was UNINTENTIONAL. I never intended to hit any balls anywhere near them. I was on my home course, they appeared to be out of the way, and all I could do was gape when I saw the ball pass them. Dumbfounded. (and spidey is rarely at a loss for words). If the group in front is aggressive (as they were), then you are going to be intimidated all day (including threatened). I didn't want to be in front, or behind them. I wanted to be somewhere else.

I would just like everybody to lose their testosterone and attitude. No matter who is fast or slow, as long as we're civilized about it, we will get through the day. Next time, a whole new ball game (unless you have a standing tee-time at a private club, and if so, you don't need our advice). Of course, if everyone was civil and reasonable, we wouldn't be having this 'discussion'.

spidey

[Kilroy]

Hey Spidey

In that situation, you wrere caught in a group of slowpokes, and the slow play was not your fault. I'd say my post is still valid. Buuut you were accused, so I stand corrected on a judicial technicality.

hehehe

[mr shank]

I hate slow play as much or more than the next guy, but it seems like pace of play is taking over the game. I go golfing to RELAX, not to argue with other golfers. I can't believe there are as many slow golfers in the world as this thread would indicate. In my experience this is a big reason pace slows down: Foursome waits on tee for group in front to be 250-300yds away before teeing off which is reasonable. One guy of the four hits a decent drive & the others spray theirs all over the place. Repeat this process 17 more times & you have your five hour round.

[Kilroy]

Yup.

Over the year I had less than 15% slow play days.

Slow play is definitely an issue, and slow players should be motivated by their playing partners. Unfortunately, one bad experience can keep a "thread" alive for a while. We would all do well to remember that even a 5 hour round is better than mowing the lawn, even on a Saturday :p

[NoBack]

Dan, I agree with you on both points. I too experienced about the same 15 % of slow play this year. I know that all year on weekends I have played in league play with other members and that we get a standing 1/2 hour or so to have all of us tee off before any of the green fee players. However there have been times that some have gone before BUT only after being asked how fast they played (not how good they were BUT how FAST!!)

Now check this out......IF ALL COURSES, reserved say the first hour of operation on weekends for their members and ONLY groups that enjoy a sub 4 hour round?????????????????

As far as weekdays which I also played (maybe 50 rounds), it all depended on what time I started. There are courses that are good for traffic and slow play. Courses that have 27 holes or more. Pakenham is a GREAT example of this, as they divert a slow group or even a faster group (such as we were one day) to their third nine holes and thus eliminating any bad feelings for being held up or pushed by another group.

As far as the second point...... it IS much better than mowing the lawn on a saturday.........btw....do you own a lawn mower???

[Kilroy]

No, I do not own a lawn mower I do not need one. There is this this guy in my 'hood who comes over, dirves over my pitifull excuse for a lawn and smiles a lot. Real nice fella. He's a golfer

But I do love the smell of fresh cut rough at dawn.

I spent 23 years photographing brides on Saturdays, and dreaming of lawnmowers. What I would have given to just cut the grass, instead of dealing with the hundreds of stressed out brides, (and their mothers). Don't take it wrong... I am proud of my achievements in photography, but enough is enough.

That is all behind me now.

[spidey]

Dan... with regard to being accused, the two instances were different days.. if I understand your meaning.

My slow play days were over 50%, but nearly half my rounds were on Saturday and Sunday mornings at about 8:00 to 9:00. Unfortunately this is just the time when the 'sunday' golfers are out and about.

Virtually ALL scramble tournaments are over 5 hour rounds... (not least because of the cart girl making extra rounds).

Unfortunately, I don't have the flexibility to be playing golf on weekday mornings.

spidey

[spidey]

btw... considering the topic of this thread... it's a kinda one-sided discussion.

Raves:

-Congrats to Stonebridge for their pace of play program.

-In fact, I'm willing to play more golf at more courses if they can promise me that my round will be under 4:15.

And also, my commendations to any golfers out there who manage to keep up with the groups in front of them, no matter how quickly they may be. I like the idea that you are considering the fact that ALL the groups behind you are benefiting from your actions.

spidey

[JimmyW]

Speaking of R+R, didn't you post a "best of" last night? I was going to voice an opinion (yet again) but I can't seem to find it. Maybe I just have a brain-cramp today or something.

JW

[spidey]

Post on Best Ottawa Courses



spidey

[JimmyW]

Dat's it.

Tks

JW