Under a tree

[Kiwi]

So I am off the fairway again, left or right, I'm an equal opportunity player. I can see the ball and I have a "shot" to get it out but branches make it nearly impossible to take a stance or even take more than a 6" back swing. BUT, if I brace some of the lower branches behing my leg (R or L) then I have a bit more room and I can punch it out.

Question is: Am I allowed to hold the branches back with my hand or body while swinging? I am not asking someone else to do it or bracing them with a bag, cart or anything else other than my body.

[LobWedge]

Unfortunately, you broke Rule 13-2 Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play. A 2 stroke penalty would apply. The following decision supports the rule.

13-2/1 Explanation of “Fairly Taking His Stance”
Q. Rule 13-2 states that a player must not improve the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing or his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole by moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds). An exception permits a player to do so in “fairly taking his stance.” What is the significance of “fairly”?
A. Without “fairly,” the exception would permit improvement of position or lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play by anything that could be said to be taking a stance. The use of “fairly” is intended to limit the player to what is reasonably necessary to take a stance for the selected stroke without unduly improving the position of the ball, his lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. Thus, in taking his stance for the selected stroke the player should select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit. What is fair must be determined in the light of all circumstances.


Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:


• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.


Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:


• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it from interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch.

[Kiwi]

Unfortunately, you broke Rule 13-2 Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play. A 2 stroke penalty would apply.

Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:


• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.

Perhaps my description was not detailed enough, however from what you say under
"Examples of actions which DO constitute fairly taking a stance" I would submit that I did not break a rule as my actions were exactly as you list as an acceptable action. The ball was sitting up, clearly visible and I could put my club behind it. However it was not in any way a "normal" stance as I would have had to straddle a branch (if I did not want to move it) and the shaft of my iron would have been directly in contact with the branch I was straddling. Whether my description, or the one you say is acceptable of "backing into a branch...", that is what I did. It was by no means, after, a normal stance or "swing" but I was able to draw my club back and make contact, perhaps only 12-18" and it popped the ball out.

Appeal?

[LobWedge]

Perhaps my description was not detailed enough, however from what you say under
"Examples of actions which DO constitute fairly taking a stance" I would submit that I did not break a rule as my actions were exactly as you list as an acceptable action. The ball was sitting up, clearly visible and I could put my club behind it. However it was not in any way a "normal" stance as I would have had to straddle a branch (if I did not want to move it) and the shaft of my iron would have been directly in contact with the branch I was straddling. Whether my description, or the one you say is acceptable of "backing into a branch...", that is what I did. It was by no means, after, a normal stance or "swing" but I was able to draw my club back and make contact, perhaps only 12-18" and it popped the ball out.

Appeal?

• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.

In you initial description you say, "nearly impossible to take a stance..." It either was impossible or it wasn't. If it was possible to take a proper stance, even with a tree branch between your legs, then you must do so. If the branch is not physically impeding your ability to take your stance, then you can't move it out of the way. You are not allowed any kind of "mental relief" because a branch may be bothering your line of sight, etc.

• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.

This statement implies gaining entrance to the area where your ball lies. You are allowed to move and bend branches in order to get there, but you are not allowed to hold them out of the way to make your stroke, unless the first condition applies.

[Kiwi]

So if I can "take a stance" by straddling a branch and moving it ever so slightly, so as not to be steping on it, then I am fine. But does "taking a stance" even though not "normal" include being able to take a "swing"? I could take a (not normal) stance, but because of the situation I had NO backswing. My stance was such that to put the club to the back of the ball, address position, the shaft rested against a branch. By backing into the branch, putting both feet to the left side, then "taking a stance" I pushed the branch back sufficiently to allow a 12"-18" back swing, just enough to pop the ball out into the rough. I thought I understood your first remark about allowable actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance to include backing into a branch.

I just re-read your original quote and it seems to me the rule says that I may bend a branch by backing into it to take my stance but to move a branch in the same manner to take my stroke is the NO-NO. Am I reading this correctly?

[justsomeguy]

I just re-read your original quote and it seems to me the rule says that I may bend a branch by backing into it to take my stance but to move a branch in the same manner to take my stroke is the NO-NO. Am I reading this correctly?

Basically, if you can take a stance WITHOUT bending the branch, then you MUST do it that way. If it is IMPOSSIBLE to take a stance without bending the branch, then you are allowed to bend the branch. You cannot move a branch simply to make your stroke easier.

[Kiwi]

OK, guess I'm a little thick, or I'm not explaining it clearly. I see the responses distinguishing between a "stance" and being able to take a swing. I can take a stance, as I indicated by straddling the branch with little or no movement of the surrounding . BUT, here is my dilema, once I have a "stance" I have NO shot. I cannot strike the ball, from any stance, without striking the branch. Either the branch prevents me from taking any backswing, or I strike the branch at the point of impact (if I put the club on the other side of the branch and swing, I strike the branch with the shaft at the same time the club head (hopefully still attached to the shaft) strikes the ball. When you say "taking a stance" does that include the ability to have a backswing (as unnatural as that may be)?

[gbower]

If you've got a stance and no swing you're probably sol and will probably have to take an unplayable lie and the penalty stroke that goes with it. You aren't allowed to move the branches to get a shot as was explained by lobwedge.

[Kiwi battler]

Gb just made the point I was going to make .....take an unplayable

I watched a low handicapper a few weeks ago , who's ball was in a garden "no free drop" try to hack his ball back into play ....he topped it a tad and still had no line to the green so ended up dropping 3 shots
I said quietly to another in our group "I think he made a boo boo back there" ..."how so?" he asked ......"shoulda taken unplayable , woulda had a clear shot at the flag and might have only dropped 1 shot"
"dont be daft , he cant take an unplayable - he could hit it" ........
"do what ? you gotta be pooing me"
"Ive done a rules course , if he can the ball he has to hit it"
well ....after rolling my eyes , and showing him the rule in the book ....all I got was "thats stupid , Im not ever playing it that way , goes against the spirit of the game"

Scary when rocket scientists like this are on match committees aye

It wont make you less of a man to take a drop ...Be a smart Kiwi ..

[jvincent]

Agree 100% with taking the unplayable. Many times it's the smartest play.

Also, don't forget the option of dropping back along the line between the ball and the hole. It's sometimes much better than just taking the two club lengths.

[Kiwi battler]

And sometimes it might be more advantageous to take back to back unplayables "4 club lengths" rather than going back to where you last played from

But remember , if you try to hack it out of the forest , after your first hack the stroke and distance option is gone ..

[Kiwi]

It wont make you less of a man to take a drop... Be smart Kiwi

OK, no offense taken, just did not know. As this thread progressed I could see the unplayable option looming and I'll follow it now that it's on the table. I've just consulted my pocket RCGA Rule Book. As I understand it I have three options. (a) replay from wherer I originally hit it. That's fine in a tournament but IMHO to so so on a course where yu have people lined up behind you is not practicle (ya, ya 20/20 hind sight, and with the new found knowledge I could/should have hit a provisional... so sue me). So now I have two options (b) drop the ball behind in line with the hole (paraphrase). In this instance it is not practical as the whole right side of the fairway was bush, trees and OB. So now I have one option (c) which is drop within two club lengths (question to follow) no closer to the hole. This appears to be my best option allowing me to drop in a 180 degree arc but no closer. Right so far? Problem is I am more than two club lengths into the woods (can I use my ball retriever + 2 club lengths... joking) So now what? Guess it it's back to (a) or is there something within (c) that allows me to have any chance of making contact with the ball? Question is what club can I use? Driver or 7i which is what I would have used had I been in the fairway at that distance.

[jvincent]

You can use any club in your bag to measure the two clublengths. You'll see the guys on tour with the belly putters using those.

[gbower]

Kiwi, even if you had hit a provisional, once the original is found the provisional is now out of play. As was mentioned by battler, maybe even taking two penalties and going four club lengths might have been an option.

There was one guy at the Citizen tournament this year that found his original in the woods and tried to hit it out and ended up either taking an 11 or 13. He later wished he had gone back to the tee to hit another one.

[AAA]

with the new found knowledge I could/should have hit a provisional...

'fraid not. You may only take a provisional if your ball may be lost or out of bounds.

Even if you had taken a provisional on the assumption it may have been lost, when you found it under the bush you must continue with it. Your 'provisional' is now dead.

[justsomeguy]

When you say "taking a stance" does that include the ability to have a backswing (as unnatural as that may be)?

No it does not. However, it is permissable to break branches in the course of making a stroke.

As others have mentioned, sometimes it is best to declare the ball unplayable. You could also consider a left-handed stroke with your putter.

[Kiwi]

No it does not. However, it is permissable to break branches in the course of making a stroke.

As others have mentioned, sometimes it is best to declare the ball unplayable. You could also consider a left-handed stroke with your putter.

Funny! you read my other post didn't you? Not as "green" as I should be but breaking branches was not my first concern. I luv my clubs.

[Kiwi]

'fraid not. You may only take a provisional if your ball may be lost or out of bounds.

Even if you had taken a provisional on the assumption it may have been lost, when you found it under the bush you must continue with it. Your 'provisional' is now dead.

I know I'm going out on a limb/branch here ... pun intended... but what obligation is there to look for the "lost" ball once you hit a great provisional? Aside from the fact you may be giving up a stroke unnecessarily, which in competition would not be wise?

[jvincent]

You are no obligation to search for the original. Once you play another stroke with the provisional that is past where the original may be lost the provisional is now in play.

However, if your FC's find your original before you play the provisional and before 5 minutes are up, the original is in play and the provisional must be abandoned.

[Kiwi battler]

Dont forget that the ball can roll a further 2 club lengths after striking the course .....if you dont want to run back , take an unplayable ...then take another- you should be able to get back into play after that ...picking where you drop can help you bigtime when the roll is added

[Kiwi]

Good discussion & advice. This will certainly impact the way I play those errant shots in the future.

[spidey]

Good discussion & advice. This will certainly impact the way I play those errant shots in the future.

Also, keep in mind that you are the sole judge of where you will play your ball.

In other words, if you're in the position you say and you don't have a shot, you might have a shot if you orient your body in such a way that the branch must interfere with your body and you may take that stance. You don't have to shoot toward the hole in order to take advantage of a rule.

Nevertheless, I think if I were in the kind of fix you were in, an unplayable would be my first choice. Sacrifice the par to salvage the round.