English Mandatory on the LPGA

[Hacker]

Yeah, just like the USGA did in the Casey Martin case.

Apples and Oranges

[LobWedge]

Apples and Oranges

Sure it is.

[McG]

Sure it is.

Casey could not walk.

The Koreans can be taught English.

Explain how they are the same please..........

[LobWedge]

Casey could not walk.

The Koreans can be taught English.

Explain how they are the same please..........

I'll speak slowly. They... are... both... cases... of... clear... cut... discrimination.

[rancherJ]

I can't think of another woman's sport that has any economic viability.(tennis?) ie can pay its own bills. Other pro sports, MEN's sports, do not need athletes to be as accessible and communicate to the public to stay afloat.
The LPGA could continue to exist without insisting players be marketers, But not in its current form. As crass as it sounds you could say the LPGA is stating "If you want to play for $$ on our tour you need to be part of the $$ making process" and that extends to off course activities when it comes to the LPGA business model.

[McG]

I'll speak slowly. They... are... both... cases... of... clear... cut... discrimination.

Then how is it that businesses in Canada can legally advertise positions that it is mandatory to be bilingual?

[rancherJ]

I'll speak slowly. They... are... both... cases... of... clear... cut... discrimination.

I am pretty sure if Casey could have learned to walk a full 18 holes so he could earn a living playing golf he'd of gone for it. It was not an option for him

[LobWedge]

I am pretty sure if Casey could have learned to walk a full 18 holes so he could earn a living playing golf he'd of gone for it. It was not an option for him

I'm certain he would have loved to be able to walk normally, and pain free. Who wouldn't? But the PGA Tour and USGA tried to deny his right to use a cart because of his medical condition. That's discrimination, and the US Supreme Court said they were wrong.

[Hacker]

I'm certain he would have loved to be able to walk normally, and pain free. Who wouldn't? But the PGA Tour and USGA tried to deny his right to use a cart because of his medical condition. That's discrimination, and the US Supreme Court said they were wrong.

The Martin decision was all about how the American's with Disabilities Act REQUIRES a leveling of the playing field for the handicapped, even in pro sports.

I don't see the LPGA issue as so cut and dried.

I also don't know, and this is a serious question, not intended to but do foreign players have the same claims under the US Constitution as American players do? Asking foreign "workers" to speak English in the US doesn't really seem like a stretch to me

[spackler]

I also don't know, and this is a serious question, not intended to but do foreign players have the same claims under the US Constitution as American players do?

Civil rights are not just extended to citizens, they apply to every person in the US. Hence Guantanamo.

[justsomeguy]

I'm failing to see how it is anyone's "Right" to play golf on the LPGA and how that supposed "Right" some how superceeds the LPGA's right to make rules which govern its association.

None of us has the "right" to work for a particular employer or compel them to hire us. However, we all have the right to be treated equally and fairly - without discrimination based on several factors including ethnic origin - when we apply for a job with that employer. Those "human rights" supercede all others.

There is no doubt that proficiency in English is a desirable asset for an LPGA player - or any professional athlete for that matter. But if the LPGA gets sued over this policy (and they probably will), they'll need to show that proficiency in English is not just desirable but necessary. I think they'll have a difficult time with that.

[jonf]

Judges are not stupid:

The tour held a mandatory meeting with South Koreans at the Safeway Classic last Wednesday to inform them of the new policy, which will be finalized with a detailed criteria by season's end.

I don't get why you've bolded those two words...or how that proves that the policy is ethnically based. The tour held a meeting, presumably with translators, in order to ensure that the parties who would be effected would have a full understanding of the policy. Damn...now THAT is discrimination.

[jonf]

None of us has the "right" to work for a particular employer or compel them to hire us. However, we all have the right to be treated equally and fairly - without discrimination based on several factors including ethnic origin - when we apply for a job with that employer. Those "human rights" supercede all others.

There is no doubt that proficiency in English is a desirable asset for an LPGA player - or any professional athlete for that matter. But if the LPGA gets sued over this policy (and they probably will), they'll need to show that proficiency in English is not just desirable but necessary. I think they'll have a difficult time with that.

As I outlined earlier, spoken language is NOT in fact necessarily included under racial/ethnic discrimination. In fact, given that the LPGA will continue to have many players of varying ethnicities once this policy is in place (those who know, or learn english), there is nothing in the policy that is specifially racial or ethnic in nature. PERIOD.

[jonf]

I'm certain he would have loved to be able to walk normally, and pain free. Who wouldn't? But the PGA Tour and USGA tried to deny his right to use a cart because of his medical condition. That's discrimination, and the US Supreme Court said they were wrong.

Yes, but not speaking english isn't a medical condition. It's a choice.

[jonf]

There is precedent in US law...

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a federal law that protects individuals from discrimination based upon national origin and race. Some courts and governmental agencies have said that discrimination based on language is a form of national origin discrimination because primary language is closely related to the place a person comes from. So if you are being discriminated against for using that language, or because of characteristics having to do with that language, that is considered essentially the same as if you were being discriminated against because of your national origin.

As well, text from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms...

22. Nothing in sections 16 to 20 abrogates or derogates from any legal or customary right or privilege acquired or enjoyed either before or after the coming into force of this Charter with respect to any language that is not English or French.

Well, reading the American excerpt, I have 2 observations: Nobody is being discriminated against for using their native language...they are being punished for the inability to use english. Legally, the difference is huge. "characteristics having to do with that language" presumably refers to accent and diction which does not apply in this case...the LPGA isn't threatening to drop golfers with accents.

[jonf]

...just like its Sean Avery's job to market the NHL and Barry Bond's job to be accessible to fans in order to grow the game of baseball!

C'mon, we're talking about athletes here. Their only job is to play their sport to the best of their ability. It would be great if they're also approachable, thoughtful, courteous, well-spoken, photogenic and just a genuinely nice person - but that is hardly a requirement for their work.

Well, the LPGA is obviously deciding that for their tour to be successful that is going to be a requirement for their work. Whether or not you agree does not change the fact that it is a business decision that they have a right to make.

[mpare]

Lorne Rubenstein has a thoughtful critique of the LPGA's position in this morning's Globe and Mail. One of the points he makes is that this tour is not solely an American tour. Events are staged in Canada, Singapore, Mexico, France, England, South Korea and Japan.

Here's the link to his commentary: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...portsGolf/home

Can anyone explain why the Tour's commissioner would not be the front and centre spokesperson on this issue? She has been AWOL. Also, why would Tour officials announce the policy to the Korean players, and then leave it to the press to advise the rest of the membership. This entire exercise has been mishandled from its conception to its execution.

[justsomeguy]

Well, the LPGA is obviously deciding that for their tour to be successful that is going to be a requirement for their work. Whether or not you agree does not change the fact that it is a business decision that they have a right to make.

No, the fact is that employers DO NOT have the right to make whatever business decisions they deem appropriate regarding hiring practices or employee working conditions. Human rights codes and labour relations laws have been in place for decades, and they supercede whatever rules a company might think is necessary for them to be successful.

This is 2008. The days when a company could make up whatever rules they wanted for their employees ended a long, long time ago.

[atomic]

Ummm, a little late to the thread, but, they aren't being asked to leave immediately. They have until the end of next season to learn rudimentary conversational English. Having taught English abroad for 3 years, a year of casual conversation classes will get everyone up to a certain level to say something like "I rike to pray gorf on LPGA tour." (tongue planted firmly in cheek) C'mom, if Mr Miyagi from the Karate Kid could teach Ralph Macchio to fight with his broken English, I'm sure that the golfers will be fine.

On a side note, having worked in Asia for a while, I couldn't imagine living abroad without making an attempt to learn the local language. It is insulting to the country to expect to speak English. Having said that, it would be nice if the same was true but in reverse.

[sensfan63]

No, the fact is that employers DO NOT have the right to make whatever business decisions they deem appropriate regarding hiring practices or employee working conditions. Human rights codes and labour relations laws have been in place for decades, and they supercede whatever rules a company might think is necessary for them to be successful.

This is 2008. The days when a company could make up whatever rules they wanted for their employees ended a long, long time ago.

Your broad strokes are invalid to this case. It's easy for the LPGA to prove that English is necessary for the players to fulfill their responsibilities (again, for those who choose not to read or hear other arguments, please see PRO AMS). That is the only concern here.

Your argument above makes it seem like an employer has to, for example, consider hiring a person who only speaks Chinese in a Canadian-based callcenter that services the golfing public in Canada only. That is illogical, and wouldn't stand a chance if brought before a court.

[golfisforfun]

The players are paid by the sponsors. The money they win is supplied by the sponsors. The sponsors want the players to deal with the media and the media deals in English.

If the players don't want to speak English, they can find a tour that exists where the primary language is their own.

If no LPGA players speak English, do you really think the LPGA will get sponsors?

I am pretty sure NIKE asks all of its athletes to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.

The LPGA is asking all of its golfers to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.

[justsomeguy]

The players are paid by the sponsors. The money they win is supplied by the sponsors. The sponsors want the players to deal with the media and the media deals in English.

If you allow your clients to choose your employees, you've lost control of your business. I understand the difficulty for the LPGA if they're facing that pressure, but their response is waaaay over-the-top. And in my view it says as much about the sponsors as it does about the athletes themselves. If I was a CEO that had the chance to play golf with an LPGA pro, having to use an interpreter to talk to them is a minor inconvenience (if that was even necessary).

I am pretty sure NIKE asks all of its athletes to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.

The LPGA is asking all of its golfers to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.

If they were asking, we wouldn't be having this debate. The problem is that they're not asking - they're demanding.

If the LPGA was simply raising the issue and taking positive steps to encourage South Koreans to learn English - instead of imposing sanctions, deadlines and ultimatums - they wouldn't be in the middle of the PR nightmare they're in. If they already had ESL programs in place and/or provided resources to their players to help them learn English and these sanctions were a "last resort" for those who refused to accommodate them, there would be a lot less resistance. Instead, they're being heavy-handed and dictatorial.

[Hacker]

I think a lot of folks are making an assumption and it is an assumption that I believe is wrong.........we all seem to be assuming that the members of the LPGA are employees - I don't believe this is the case. Hockey players are employees of their respective clubs as are football, basketball and soccer players. I don't think this is the case in golf.

The Human Rights issue still stands but all of the employer/employee arguments aren't valid IMO

[Chambokl]

Hacker: we all seem to be assuming that the members of the LPGA are employees

That was my point from the beginning.

Also the fact that Nike is asking them to speak english is pretty small world. The english speaking Nike sponsord players are promoting Nike in the US. Pak is promoting Nike in Korea, Ochoa is promoting Nike is Mexico, etc...

Some of you guys seem to think that the US is the centre of the World. Why is the LPGA having trouble with sponsor... the US is in a recession.

When they have Pro-Am in Japan do the American player speaks Japanese to the people they play with. When in China do they... you get the point.

[golfisforfun]

Ok, let's try it this way...

The LPGA is a league. If you want to play in their league you must qualify. To qualify you must go through Q-School. And not only do you need to shoot low scores, you must pass an English Test...

There. How's that? Do they have a right to do that? I would think they do have that right. If you don't want to play in their league, go play elsewhere.

[mjf]

Bottom line is, this language issue will end up in US Federal Court, and the LPGA will lose.

I'll take that bet. Based on the limited research I did and what I heard on the Golf Channel last night, it might end up in course, but the LPGA will likely win.

Of course, that's just from a legal perspective. They may well ultimately end up losing in the court of public opinion.

[deucy7]

the way that all tours make money is through money and sponsorship, pro-ams are huge money makes by paring big sponsor executives with big name players... of course it makes sense to make sure that the players can communicate and interact with the coperate executives

[jonf]

No, the fact is that employers DO NOT have the right to make whatever business decisions they deem appropriate regarding hiring practices or employee working conditions. Human rights codes and labour relations laws have been in place for decades, and they supercede whatever rules a company might think is necessary for them to be successful.

This is 2008. The days when a company could make up whatever rules they wanted for their employees ended a long, long time ago.

Wow, talk about misconstruing my response. They can't do whatever they want, but they can make language requirements provided they are not discriminatory in nature....provided they do not discriminate based on race or ethnicity. As the LPGA welcomes players of all ethnicities, this policy would not be deemed discriminatory.

[Shank]

Sounds a lot like the old southern US Literacy Tests for voters. Of course it was only for "certain" voters.

[mpare]

Y'all better learn me to talk American, so's I kin talk with them high falutin sponsor peoples. Wanna make a good depression.

Sounds a lot like the old southern US Literacy Tests for voters. Of course it was only for "certain" voters.