Lefty Slice

[broken27]

I have a fairly strong grip, shoot left, and swing fairly fast/hard according to people who've watched me swing.

I am right-handed, but shoot left, so my power/accuracy hands in a hockey context are out of place. But I slice left in my drives some times while never hooking right.

Is there anyone who can give me a quick explanation of how that works? I mean, is it the grip, swing, hand position, club face at point of contact too open/closed?

I'm fairly sure that if I knew the physics, I could work it out on the range.

Thanks,
Dan

[BC MIST]

I have a fairly strong grip, shoot left, and swing fairly fast/hard according to people who've watched me swing.

I am right-handed, but shoot left, so my power/accuracy hands in a hockey context are out of place. But I slice left in my drives some times while never hooking right.

Is there anyone who can give me a quick explanation of how that works? I mean, is it the grip, swing, hand position, club face at point of contact too open/closed?

I'm fairly sure that if I knew the physics, I could work it out on the range.

Thanks,
Dan

Ther are only 9 ball flight possibilities. The face of the club is open, square or closed to the club head path, and there are 3 club head paths, on line, outside in or inside out. For you to slice left, (being a left hander) the face is open to your current path.

On what line does your ball start before curving left? If it is right of target line, your path is outside in, if at your target it is on line, and if left of target line, it is inside out. The irony of your slice is your strong grip. This suggests to me that you swing outside in, but hold the release of your wrists, causing the slice. If your hands released with a strong grip, you would hook.

I am right-handed, but shoot left, You suggest that this combination is a curse. I would call it a blessing. The two best ball strikers of all time, Ben Hogan and Moe Norman were/are left handed. Just a coincidence? The truth is that a strong pulling action with the dominant lead hand puts the club head in a better, hands ahead of the ball position, than if you were trail side dominant. This allows the flexed trail elbow and wrist joints to unflex slightly later, so their power will not be wasted. It is not the physical strength of the trail arm that is important but that the elbow and wrist angles straighten later in the downswing.

The arms can be trained to drop into the slot at the start of the downswing, however, a picture of that saves writing a thousand words. The ideal path/face combination is inside path and open face at impact, on line and square face at separation, 3/4" later.

[broken27]

Ther are only 9 ball flight possibilities. The face of the club is open, square or closed to the club head path, and there are 3 club head paths, on line, outside in or inside out. For you to slice left, (being a left hander) the face is open to your current path.

On what line does your ball start before curving left? If it is right of target line, your path is outside in, if at your target it is on line, and if left of target line, it is inside out. The irony of your slice is your strong grip. This suggests to me that you swing outside in, but hold the release of your wrists, causing the slice. If your hands released with a strong grip, you would hook.

I am right-handed, but shoot left, You suggest that this combination is a curse. I would call it a blessing. The two best ball strikers of all time, Ben Hogan and Moe Norman were/are left handed. Just a coincidence? The truth is that a strong pulling action with the dominant lead hand puts the club head in a better, hands ahead of the ball position, than if you were trail side dominant. This allows the flexed trail elbow and wrist joints to unflex slightly later, so their power will not be wasted. It is not the physical strength of the trail arm that is important but that the elbow and wrist angles straighten later in the downswing.

The arms can be trained to drop into the slot at the start of the downswing, however, a picture of that saves writing a thousand words. The ideal path/face combination is inside path and open face at impact, on line and square face at separation, 3/4" later.

I'm not suggesting that I'm cursed to be R/L switched. I was just pointing out the overall situation, assuming that power-hand/accuracy-hand might have something to do with it.

So it's likely a wrist thing then? My ball-flight starts out on line to the target, but starts to severely fade out left about 3/4 between launch and landing. It's manageable, but annoying to deal with.

The ideal path/face combination is inside path and open face at impact, on line and square face at separation, 3/4" later.

Is this to set up a natural draw, or plan a straight ball flight? Seems to me that would be the result in terms of physics.

Thanks for the tip.

Dan

[el tigre]

Is there anyone who can give me a quick explanation of how that works? I mean, is it the grip, swing, hand position, club face at point of contact too open/closed?

A good golf pro could give you a quick explanation - after seeing your swing. A strong grip is an anti-slice move, so it's probably not that. It could be any of the others though, but it is very difficult to diagnose online without a lot more info about your swing path, etc.

I'm fairly sure that if I knew the physics, I could work it out on the range.

I think you'll find that "working it out yourself" is harder than you think, but the best explanation of the physics that I've found is a book called "Swing Like a Pro", by Dr Ralph Mann & Fred Griffin. Mann is a biomechanics expert & Griffin is a teaching pro. They video-taped and studied the swings of over 100 PGA tour pros to find the similarities common to most of them and build a kind of composite "ideal" swing. Solid research that really cuts through all the (often conflicting) opinion-based tips and methods out there. Very interesting stuff.

[broken27]

A good golf pro could give you a quick explanation - after seeing your swing. A strong grip is an anti-slice move, so it's probably not that.

I'd hate to see what a weak grip would do to my drive.... :shake

I think the whole swing analysis thing might be a good idea before I get any deeper into the technical aspects of the golf swing. I have gotten myself pretty much as far as I think I'm able to (in the pure-ability sense), and other that tweaking distance and loft, I'm stuck.

Lessons.... YAY!

Dan

[Pilgrim]

I have a fairly strong grip, shoot left, and swing fairly fast/hard according to people who've watched me swing.

Not that you CARE to have my opinion, but two things (already mentioned):
- you were going to get lessons, do it, itll save you a LOT of angst figuring out which of the 9 things is making you slice...once you ingrain a good swing, you'll think less (always a good thing for a golfer). I had a slice for a long time too, and ALMOST gave into it, until I rebuilt my swing...its a lot of work to rebuild, but Im much more comfortable now...and I can look at my divots (theres a huge clue: look at your divot...does it point at target, to left of target, or to right of target...if its pointing at target, or a TINY bit left of it (for a lefty), then your swing path is correct, but your face is open on impact).

- in my opinion swinging hard (too hard) can be disastrous...when you swing, are you controllable? Do you lose balance? Can you shoot slowly if you want to?

All advice is good, but nothing beats strong understanding of the mechanics, good lessons AND lots of applied practice.

[broken27]

Not that you CARE to have my opinion,

I never said that, I just said that it doesn't mean I'll change to agree with you.

Good points on the shooting hard though. I tend to shoot harder if I play either very well or very poorly. I guess it's adrenaline or nerves.

I have noticed this slice more off the tee on the second half of a round.

Dan

[Andru]

I'd hate to see what a weak grip would do to my drive.... :shake

I think the whole swing analysis thing might be a good idea before I get any deeper into the technical aspects of the golf swing. I have gotten myself pretty much as far as I think I'm able to (in the pure-ability sense), and other that tweaking distance and loft, I'm stuck.

Lessons.... YAY!

Dan

]
Dan

If your ball is flying online after impact then falling off to the left. You're more than half way there. The problem seems to be your face is slightly open when the ball leaves the club head. It's not a big deal. This is how the club head is oriented in you hands. If you would like to know the physics. If you hold your hand out as though you were going to shake hands with someone. The act of opening and closing the club face is your hand twisting "clock" wise and "counter" clock wise. Or reverse for a left hander. counter to open and clock wise to close.

Grab your club as you're reading this and hold it at impact. Now do that twisting motion and you'll see the face open and close. It's that twisting motion that controls the direction of the club face. Hold it off and you'll slice it. Release too early and you hook it. If you're 'about right'. You'll hit a decent shot. Practice half speed wedge shots using this. Go left, go right, go right down the middle with a little draw.

Lessons are an option. Working it out is better. It's up to you. Everyone is different.

[Kilroy]

Lessons are an option. Working it out is better. It's up to you. Everyone is different.

Trying to work it out on your own can take much longer. A pro you can communicate with is very helpfull when it comes to analizing what needs to be changed and how to best go about it.

I could look at myself in a mirror and never see anything if I did not know what it's supposed to look like. A video with a good instructor is very helpfull. They will focus on the next thing to work on, then you go work on that. Then go back and get the next piece of the puzzle...

[broken27]

Okay, so with all this great information, let me ask a little follow up question:

I have thought about WHEN I tend to slice, and I've narrowed it down to two situations.

1 - Driver on the tee: Normally I use my 5W off the tee because I hit it dead straight and about 220-230yds. Would using my driver (with a higher tee-up position for the ball) inherently cause a more open clubface?

2 - 3W to 4i off the fairway: Again, my prefered club for longer fairway shots is my 5w, and I hit it farther than from the tee, again dead straight.

I'm starting to think it's a mental block of some sort. I've had the problem for a long time, but have worked it out of my game with all but those two situations (of course, it still happens occasionally off the tee with the 5W, but not much).

Could the problem have anything to do with how far the ball is from my feet at the point of address?

Dan

[Pilgrim]

Good points on the shooting hard though. I tend to shoot harder if I play either very well or very poorly. I guess it's adrenaline or nerves.

Watch your grip pressure then, learn to hold it in your fingers (again, a pro can help). If you're throttling it for whatever reason, you aren't going to release properly and the face will remain open. one of my brothers has a death choke on his clubs, and when he doesn't slice, its a push...one is the proper swing path and one isn't, but both are open faces.

IN MY OPINION, the money you spend on a pro-lessons SAVES you a lot of money (tell your wife) in frustration, bad games, bad practice and gizmos.

[el tigre]

Well, the clubs you're having trouble with are the longest clubs in your bag, which are usually the hardest clubs to hit well.

I'm guessing (and it is only a guess), that your downswing is too steep and you're not clearing your hips out of the way quick enough to allow a proper inside-out swing path. This is the classic over-the-top move that we have ALL suffered from at some point in time. It is easier to compensate for a steep downswing with shorter clubs, but with woods and long irons you do not have enough time and space to square the clubface.

[Andru]

Trying to work it out on your own can take much longer.

....or a small bucket on the practice tee.

[BC MIST]

I have thought about WHEN I tend to slice, and I've narrowed it down to two situations.
1 - Driver on the tee: Normally I use my 5W off the tee because I hit it dead straight and about 220-230yds. Would using my driver (with a higher tee-up position for the ball) inherently cause a more open clubface?
2 - 3W to 4i off the fairway: Again, my prefered club for longer fairway shots is my 5w, and I hit it farther than from the tee, again dead straight.
Could the problem have anything to do with how far the ball is from my feet at the point of address? Dan

Ther could be a number of reasons why you slice and a trained eye and use of a video camera would really help.

Swinging a longer club means that your swing is flatter so it should be easier to achieve a more inside path. But, as there is always a trade off in golf, the lower loft of a longer club makes it easier to slice.

If you can stand with your left side(you are left handed) facing a full length mirror. Go to the top of your backswing, stop and look in the mirror. In slow motion start your arms/hands down as you would do in your normal swing. Is your left elbow moving toward the front of your left hip? Secondly, go back to the top and look. This time, and again in slow motion, bring your arms down with your left elbow moving straight down to your left hip. If you watch your hands they will move vertically downward. This is the motion that will get you "on plane," instead of out/over the plane.

Some golfers think that after the hands go back, around and up, that they are simple returned out and down to the ball. However, if your thinking is that the hands go back, around and up, and then VERTICALLY DOWNWARD as you start the downswing, you will improve very quickly.

The next time that you go to a range with green mats, take along a roll of duct tape. Tear off a piece about 2' long and place in on the mat at an angle coming into the ball of about 35 to 40 degrees. As you swing the club down imagine the club head coming into the ball by travelling along the piece of duct tape. Avoid thinking about HOW you are going to do it. Just do it. Start with slower "3/4" swings until better contact is being made, before increasing the speed.

Remember: The downswing is a DOWN (toward the ground) and BACK(to your left along the target line) motion, not a down and forward motion. Do this and your slice will be history. Jeepers, I wish I could show you.

What you are trying to achieve is a position where, when you hands are just in front of your crotch, the club shaft covers the rear, in your case-left, forearm. This is what is meant by being "On Plane." This is your goal. Achieve this position and your ball will fly straight and true.

Here is a picture of the correct position. It's the black and white one.

http://www.golfbetterproductions.com...asp?drillID=10

[mpare]

BCMist, this is one of the better explanations of how to get the club on plane that I have seen in quite some time. Your explanation of the importance of the downward motion cannot be over-emphasized. Warren Grant, the pro at Manderley who focuses on the importance of that particular move, would be proud of you.

[faldo]

That's a very useful looking site. I'll spend some time there now.

Thanks a lot,

[broken27]

Very nice explanation indeed. I went to the site to check it out, and in that picture (black and white), the guy seems to be standing WAY farther from the ball than I am. I have seen / heard that you should have your clubshaft pointing at about your belt-buckle. Does that make sense?

Anyway, sounds like I should get at least one lesson to work out the kinks, or at least have someone who knows this stuff at least see a swing or two. Maybe I'm all messed up from the very start. On verge of cracking 80 and I'm going to end up going back up to 100. :cryin

Typical.....

Dan

[BC MIST]

Very nice explanation indeed. I went to the site to check it out, and in that picture (black and white), the guy seems to be standing WAY farther from the ball than I am. I have seen / heard that you should have your clubshaft pointing at about your belt-buckle. Does that make sense?

Anyway, sounds like I should get at least one lesson to work out the kinks, or at least have someone who knows this stuff at least see a swing or two. Maybe I'm all messed up from the very start. On verge of cracking 80 and I'm going to end up going back up to 100. :cryin

Typical.....

Dan

It is true that John Dunnigan advocates a poisition where the hands are a little farther from the ball and that means that the backswing will be a little flatter. In fact, John wants the lead arm(your right) to be parallel to the shoulder plane at the top of the backswing. From this position it is easier to make the down and back move that gets the club on plane. Because many of the TOUR players fight the hook, their swings on the average may be a little more upright, and modern teaching is still being influenced by Jack Nicklaus' original upright swing. Keep in mind that many great players flattened their swings as they evolved, including Nicklaus.

John's method encourages an inside club head path to the ball resulting in a straight or a draw flight, and this is good. My only concern is that if you achieve this inside path, on plane position, that you will start to hook the ball, because you indicated that you had a "strong" grip. I am assuming that you meant the position of the hands on the club as opposed to the pressure with which you hold the club. If hooking starts, merely turn the hands counter clockwise(for a lefty) and the hook will disappear.

[broken27]

I am assuming that you meant the position of the hands on the club as opposed to the pressure with which you hold the club. If hooking starts, merely turn the hands counter clockwise(for a lefty) and the hook will disappear.

Yeah, I meant the traditional meaning of "strong grip", in that I can see 3 knuckles on my right (top) hand. I was planning on easing that up a little this season anyway, so maybe that's the first thing to start with, then gradually shift my swing "power" down. I think if I can just find a way to be relaxed, the issue will resolve itself. I just get very excited after a good hole, and frustrated after a bad one, and then I try to kill the ball.

Dan

[BC MIST]

I was planning on easing that up a little this season anyway, so maybe that's the first thing to start with
Good idea, but do it just a little at a time as a significant turning of the lead hand over may initially feel so foreign to you that it may affect other changes you want to make. Judge the amount you change it by the flight of the ball.


then gradually shift my swing "power" down. I think if I can just find a way to be relaxed, the issue will resolve itself.
I find this interesting. If you are swinging so hard that you are losing your balance and the control of the ball, then throttling down a bit is a good idea. However, if not, give the ball a good rip with the driver. As a kid I patterened my swing tempo after Sam Snead and Gene Littler, (yes, I am that old) and never developed an aggressive attack at the ball. This is one of the reasons I have always hit the ball short compared to some others, even though I hit the ball straight. This winter I have worked on a swinging harder, still maintaining good balance, and I have gone from a 95 to 98 mph driver swing to a 102 to 106, which translates in 18 to 20 yards.

I just get very excited after a good hole, and this is what golf is all about,

and frustrated after a bad one, and then I try to kill the ball. This emotion is understandable, however, it simply leads to more bad holes, because getting emotional about you bad shots reinforces in your subconscious mind, the bad shot that you just hit. Continue getting excited about the good ones and remain non-plussed about your bad ones.

[mr shank]

I think if I can just find a way to be relaxed, the issue will resolve itself. I just get very excited after a good hole, and frustrated after a bad one, and then I try to kill the ball.
Dan

Try reading Golf For Enlightenment, by Deepak Chopra. This book will teach you how to relax and "love your ball".

Either that or just smoke your avatar before you tee off.

[broken27]

I was planning on easing that up a little this season anyway, so maybe that's the first thing to start with
Good idea, but do it just a little at a time as a significant turning of the lead hand over may initially feel so foreign to you that it may affect other changes you want to make. Judge the amount you change it by the flight of the ball.

Yeah, I plan on taking a very methodical and integrated approach to this. I don't want to change too many things at once, or change any one thing so radically that I lose my place. I want to know the effects of each change, and thus will look to do it patiently and a little bit at a time....

then gradually shift my swing "power" down. I think if I can just find a way to be relaxed, the issue will resolve itself.
I find this interesting. If you are swinging so hard that you are losing your balance and the control of the ball, then throttling down a bit is a good idea. However, if not, give the ball a good rip with the driver. As a kid I patterened my swing tempo after Sam Snead and Gene Littler, (yes, I am that old) and never developed an aggressive attack at the ball. This is one of the reasons I have always hit the ball short compared to some others, even though I hit the ball straight. This winter I have worked on a swinging harder, still maintaining good balance, and I have gone from a 95 to 98 mph driver swing to a 102 to 106, which translates in 18 to 20 yards.

That's the bottom line, meaning that I'm not overly concerned with pure yardage off the tee. I'm more interested in my second shot, so I'm likely to try to set up for a comfortable distance (150y-120y) for my approach. I don't mind not being Daly off the tee, I'd rather play from a conservative position that allows me to use my best clubs (8 iron-PW)

I just get very excited after a good hole, and this is what golf is all about,

In principle, I agree, but the rush carries over to the next tee box, and I get too excited trying to keep momentum going in the round. I have lately been able to think more "one hole at a time"....

and frustrated after a bad one, and then I try to kill the ball. This emotion is understandable, however, it simply leads to more bad holes, because getting emotional about you bad shots reinforces in your subconscious mind, the bad shot that you just hit. Continue getting excited about the good ones and remain non-plussed about your bad ones.

Yeah, frustration is generally something I can "set aside" in my mind for about 5 holes of poor hitting, but it gets the best of me eventually. I know that this is likely the easiest part of my game to fix, since I enjoy playing the game so much. Breaking down an 18-hole round into 18 one-hole rounds is great for this. Now, just to apply it...

I think the best thing would be to ask someone I play a rec round with who is much better than me (fundamental-wise) to observe a few swings on the range or even in play. There's definitely something there that is causing the ball to fade hard-left at about the 75% point of the ball flight. I'm sure it's not the equipment, so it must be me... :jitter

Dan

[yun]

I think you might want to pay alittle attention to see if your hands are getting trapped behind your body. At the top of your swing, make sure your left arm hasn't collapsed too much. If it has, then there's no room for your club to drop back on plane, and you end up pushing your club outwards instead of down, creating an inside to out swing path or a really flat swing plane. Pay attention to your takeaway too. Make sure it's your shoulders that are taking the club head back, not your arms. In my experience, even with the strongest grips at times, if you're arms get behind the body and your a hard swinger, you're toast.

Yun

[yun]

I like the idea of trying to figure things out - as long as you take some time and do alittle reasearch to get an idea of the direction you want to go. If you have a sound idea of what mechanics are good, then go nuts at the range. If you keep hitting balls and thinking in terms of 'cause and effect', i think it will really help you in the long run in understanding the golf swing and helping you become your own swing coach. That's the way I've approached it and its helped me break 80 within a couple years. So go watch some Golf Channel. It rocks.

Yun

[BC MIST]

I think you might want to pay alittle attention to see if your hands are getting trapped behind your body. At the top of your swing, make sure your left arm hasn't collapsed too much. If it has, then there's no room for your club to drop back on plane, and you end up pushing your club outwards instead of down, creating an inside to out swing path or a really flat swing plane. Pay attention to your takeaway too. Make sure it's your shoulders that are taking the club head back, not your arms. In my experience, even with the strongest grips at times, if you're arms get behind the body and your a hard swinger, you're toast.
Yun

One aspect of golf swing theory that is interesting to me is how diametrically opposed some ideas are in trying to achieve identical outputs. For example: At the top of your swing, make sure your left arm hasn't collapsed too much. If it has, then there's no room for your club to drop back on plane, and you end up pushing your club outwards instead of down, creating an inside to out swing path or a really flat swing plane.

I don't understand the above statement. If there is no room for the club to drop back on plane, and if you end up pushing the club outwards, then how is it possible to create an inside to out path?

The truth is that most golfers slice, most slices are caused by an OUTSIDE path to the ball, therefore an INSIDE path to the ball, will create the desired draw or straight ball. If 95% of golfers had the "problem" of an inside path to the ball, golf teaching professionals would go broke.

If this: http://www.golfbetterproductions.co....asp?drillID=10 , is "stuck", let's all get stucked. Tiger Woods jargon(stuck) is like Greek Mythology. The few professional golfers who do not pass through this "inside path to the ball" position are faders, whose shaft is slightly above John Dunnigan's position in order to achieve that desired ball flight. Having said that, one of the best ball strikers ever, Lee Trevino, a fader of the ball, passes through this position every time.

Lastly, set up to a ball, with your arm and grip pressure .5 on a scale of 10. Now, turn your shoulders and describe what happens to the club. It drags along the ground. One of Canada's best instructors, Mark Evershed, has a simple saying, "You don't turn the shoulders, the shoulders get turned." The arms control the golf swing. The sole purpose of the hands is to hold on to the golf club. The body reacts to the movement of the arms and is merely a stablizer. It's not what we feel, but it's real.

[yun]

i meant outside to inside path. I was talkin' on the phone while typing. my bad. My point was if you don't allow any room for your club to drop down from the top of the swing, you end up pushing the club outwards.

Yun

[broken27]

Specific talk about "inside out or outside in" do not really mean much to me other than the general direction of the club in relation to my hips. What would outside in do as opposed to inside out? The physics would imply variation in terms of reaction, based on the open or closed or square position of the club face. At least, in my mind, that's how the basics look.

I'm gonna check more into that site BCMIST, and rather than convolute the issue any more in the forum, I'll maybe PM you if I have questions about that duct-tape drill.

I think from what I've read here, and between the various reference materials I've been pointed to, I think I can figure this out at the range (at least the problem, more concretely), and make adjustments whether they be lessons, resized clubs, new grips, new grip, alignment etc....

Thank you all for the information. Appreciate it.

Dan

[Deep Woods]

Specific talk about "inside out or outside in" do not really mean much to me ...

Let me try....its long...and everything is for a LEFTY...

Your target line is the reference point: it's the line parallel to your shoulders, hips, feet, etc., that points at your target.

Looking at your body from above, imagine the target line runs from 9pm to 3pm on a clock...your body is at 6pm (the target, for a lefty, is at 3pm). The ball is on the target line. When you first start your takeaway, you pull the clubhead back along the target line towards 9pm, and actually it follows a pendulum to the top of your swing.

When you finish your backswing and START your swing downwards, the MOST common error which OFTEN causes a slice (consciously or otherwise) is to start the swing with an AXE like motion with the club.

Imagine if you were holding an axe to chop wood in front of you where the ball is...whats the motion from on top of the shoulder? Forward and over the top...thats what you'll hear a lot to describe an improper swing-start: over the top.

It is TOUGH TO FEEL IT, especially if you swing TOO FAST, but your arms are making a CHOP forward motion, as if chopping wood right in front of you.

This is THE big mistake.

NOW the clubhead is (looking at above again) on the opposite side of the target line from your body, also known as OUTSIDE. Its pretty much too late to correct once the club head is out there.

The only way to strike the ball FROM THIS POSITION is to come from OUTSIDE (or the other side) of the target line...to the ball...THEN CROSS the line to the INSIDE. Essentially, the clubhead (from the bad axe-chop start) is coming at the ball 10pm (the position you put the clubhead in from going over the top) to 4pm.

10pm to 4pm: OUTSIDE to INSIDE...bad

You are CUTTING across the ball from the outside to the inside, as a lefty, and you put counterclockwise (looking from the top) spin on the ball (AKA SLICE). The ball with that spin will follow a banana path to the left (for a lefty)...the spin varies depending on HOW much from the outside you came. The spin ALSO varies on HOW OPEN your face is...TWO DIFFERENT CAUSES.

People who manage to close the club head/face in time from the axe-chop-position create a PULL (the ball flies in a straight line, but pointing well right of target, for a lefty). BOTH are the same problem: an outside to inside path.

So how do you correct? Practice, understanding of what is happening, and guidance from a pro.

Once you have completed your back swing, your arms should actually start by pulling DOWNWARDS, as if pulling a cord on a bell...and thats the best thing to ingrain: to start your arms by pulling your club straight DOWN TOWARDS THE GROUND.

Again, its tough to FEEL if you swing too fast.

But when you do that, club head falls into position on the inside of the line, and is now coming at the ball from roughly 8pm...hitting the ball...and heading out to 2pm...

8pm to 2pm: INSIDE to OUTSIDE...good

Also described as this: your club head starts on the inside path of the target line, strikes the ball from the inside to OUT direction, and from there, if you've closed your face properly, will cause a bit of a draw (the ball goes (for a lefty) from left to right).

You can still slice a ball by other methods, but thats the COMMON one. Once you understand what an inside to outside swing FEELS LIKE, you'll only have to conquer CLOSING THE FACE properly to create a nice draw...

[BC MIST]

i meant outside to inside path. I was talkin' on the phone while typing. my bad. My point was if you don't allow any room for your club to drop down from the top of the swing, you end up pushing the club outwards.
Yun

Correction acknowledged. It could be worse. Talking on the phone, sipping your second glass of wine and typing on the computer.

[BC MIST]

I'm gonna check more into that site BCMIST, and rather than convolute the issue any more in the forum, I'll maybe PM you if I have questions about that duct-tape drill.
I think from what I've read here, and between the various reference materials I've been pointed to, I think I can figure this out at the range (at least the problem, more concretely), and make adjustments whether they be lessons, resized clubs, new grips, new grip, alignment etc....
Thank you all for the information. Appreciate it.
Dan

Dan,

I have both of Dunnigan's books and his video. If you are interested in borrowing them, PM me.

The duct tape drill is one of John's. He refers to it as the ANGLE OF APPROACH. He draws another similar line on the mat descriding the exact path the club head follows, which is the ARC OF APPROACH.

The latter part of his tape is interesting in that he takes a 20 handicap, over the top, outside in swinger, and has him swinging down and back, inside out, in one day. The correct motion is easy to do, however, you must have a thorough understanding of what you are trying to do, and be convinced that it is the right thing to do.