New Groove Rules

[LobWedge]

For those who don't know yet, the R&A and USGA announced a couple of weeks ago, new groove rules and specifications for clubs with lofts greater than 25º (5-iron range).

Without getting into too much detail (you can read the full text here, http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?cfid=...newsid=1055&id=), these higher-lofted clubs will need to have grooves with a smaller overall volume (less depth and width), and the groove edges will have to be rounded off to a minimum radius (so no more zip, spin milled, y-cutter, type grooves).

The regulation for major pro tours (PGA, LPGA, etc.) will go into effect on January 1, 2010. For lesser pro tours and high level amateur events, the regulation will take effect on January 1, 2014. For "recreational" players who maintain valid handicaps, any current equipment (and equipment produced up to the end of 2009) that meets the current regulations, will continue to be considered as conforming until 2024, as far as things stand now, but that could change.

The only exception to the rule is any Ping irons manufactured prior to 1990, because of the square grooves law suit that Ping won against the USGA back then. Those irons will still be allowed.

IMO, this is a good decision. I have always been in favour of skill being the major factor in determining a player's score. Now I know there's going to be people on both sides of this, and that's why I'm posting it for discussion.

Any thoughts?

[Kiwi battler]

If the 2024 date changes , there will be an uproar

The driver change at the start of the year cost a lot of people a lot of money
Wonder if clubmakers flicked a little money under the table to help push that initative thru ....wouldnt suprise me in this corrupt world

[LobWedge]

If the 2024 date changes , there will be an uproar

Why would there be an uproar if the date changes? It's 16 years off. Manufacturers won't be producing any clubs with sharp grooves over 25º loft after next year (at least in the high end equipment anyway).

[Kiwi battler]

If they change it to 2009 jan 1 ........or even 2010 ....

[BC MIST]

IMO, this is a good decision. I have always been in favour of skill being the major factor in determining a player's score. Now I know there's going to be people on both sides of this, and that's why I'm posting it for discussion.

It IS a good decision. For anyone NOT old enough to be able to compare today's equipment and golf balls, to the equipment of 1960, or thereabouts, the game is significantly easier now than back then. This move may force some to improve their technique for shots from around the greens rather than just letting the club do it for them.

[LobWedge]

If they change it to 2009 jan 1 ........or even 2010 ....

They won't do that. They've always had a policy of at least 10 years for grandfathering old equipment, so the earliest they would even consider it would be 2018.

[LobWedge]

It IS a good decision. For anyone NOT old enough to be able to compare today's equipment and golf balls, to the equipment of 1960, or thereabouts, the game is significantly easier now than back then. This move may force some to improve their technique for shots from around the greens rather than just letting the club do it for them.

You don't even need to go back that far. 1980's at most, to Gary Adams and Karsten Solheim.

[spackler]

It IS a good decision. For anyone NOT old enough to be able to compare today's equipment and golf balls, to the equipment of 1960, or thereabouts, the game is significantly easier now than back then. This move may force some to improve their technique for shots from around the greens rather than just letting the club do it for them.

In 1960 the Vardon trophy winner on the PGA tour (Billy Casper) had a 69.95 average. This year Padraig Harrington is leading the pack at 69.28. Got to be the wedges.

[LobWedge]

In 1960 the Vardon trophy winner on the PGA tour (Billy Casper) had a 69.95 average. This year Padraig Harrington is leading the pack at 69.28. Got to be the wedges.

The courses are a lot longer now. If you put today's technology on those old courses, I bet the stroke average would be at least 4 strokes lower.

[spackler]

The courses are a lot longer now. If you put today's technology on those old courses, I bet the stroke average would be at least 4 strokes lower.

Oh, are they rolling back the course design?

[LobWedge]

Oh, are they rolling back the course design?

Well, since par is the standard, every year the USGA, R&A, PGA Tour has to make greens more severe, rough deeper, and holes longer in order to try and protect par. With these changes, the courses will start to look more normal again, and not like skateboard parks on steroids. And a lot of great courses that were going to become obsolete will be able to be used again.

[jvincent]

I don't think it's going to make a difference to the tour guys.

They are still going to play bomb and gouge. If the USGA and R&A really wanted to make a difference they would change the rules on the ball.

[LobWedge]

I don't think it's going to make a difference to the tour guys.

They are still going to play bomb and gouge. If the USGA and R&A really wanted to make a difference they would change the rules on the ball.

I've got no problem with bomb & gouge, as long as the gouge coming out of the rough has a lot less spin on it.

And the ball is next...

[jvincent]

That's the thing, I don't think the spin reduction will be that much for the tour guys.

I haven't heard any buzz on them rolling back the ball.

[LobWedge]

That's the thing, I don't think the spin reduction will be that much for the tour guys.

I disagree. If you look at the technical changes to the volume and especially the groove edges, there's going to be a lot more fliers. Remember, grooves are supposed to be channels to help clear debris away from the clubface to maximize exposure of ball to flat surface. When they started making sharper grooves, then they were used to also enhance spin. Now that there will be less grove volume to clear away grass, etc. and rounded edges, the spin will drop significantly.

The catch 22 then becomes, do manufacturers now make balls that spin more? Not likely because drivers, fairway woods, and long irons will start hitting balloon balls and they will lose distance.

[jvincent]

I guess we'll have to see.

Since it wasn't stated in any of the releases I saw, I just did the math and the new groove rules have cut the groove volume in half.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ball guys come up with a ball that is even stickier at low speeds but isn't sticky at driver speeds. And super long to boot.

[LobWedge]

I guess we'll have to see.

Since it wasn't stated in any of the releases I saw, I just did the math and the new groove rules have cut the groove volume in half.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ball guys come up with a ball that is even stickier at low speeds but isn't sticky at driver speeds. And super long to boot.

A marshmallow with a steel core.

[spackler]

Well, since par is the standard, every year the USGA, R&A, PGA Tour has to make greens more severe, rough deeper, and holes longer in order to try and protect par. With these changes, the courses will start to look more normal again, and not like skateboard parks on steroids. And a lot of great courses that were going to become obsolete will be able to be used again.

Wedges aren't making great old courses obsolete, greenskeepers have obviously figured out how to evolve with equipment if the scores are remaining the same. In relation to par, the average score is probably higher on tour today than it was in 1960 given the number of par 70 and 71 courses out there.

Golf is no different than anything else, it evolves over time. Course design has evolved, club design has evolved, ball design has evolved, course maintenance has evolved, hell, even apparel has evolved. The only people who don't want it to evolve are generally crotchety old guys who think the young guys have it too easy. But they're a bunch of hypocrites. They hate what ball technology has done to the game, but neither are they going back to the gutta percha or featherie. They hate groove design and volume, but they aren't banning the sand wedge. They never want to roll it all the way back, just back to where it was when they were in their prime.

[LobWedge]

Golf is no different than anything else, it evolves over time. Course design has evolved, club design has evolved, ball design has evolved, course maintenance has evolved, hell, even apparel has evolved. The only people who don't want it to evolve are generally crotchety old guys who think the young guys have it too easy. But they're a bunch of hypocrites. They hate what ball technology has done to the game, but neither are they going back to the gutta percha or featherie. They hate groove design and volume, but they aren't banning the sand wedge. They never want to roll it all the way back, just back to where it was when they were in their prime.

Yet another example of extremism. It's either all or nothing, screw the balance.

I'm neither old or crotchety. I don't hate what technology has done to the game, but I do believe that too much technology diminishes skill, and cheapens the result. The powers that be will always draw the line somewhere.

[jeffc]

Personally I think its overkill for the average player, who doesn't spin the ball like crazy. It will be interesting to see what the manufacturers do now that their biggest marketing weapon for wedges is no more. Not sure what technology they will try to sell to us now.

[buykrux]

i personally think they should just stop the production of the soon to be illegal grooves now and let the people who have the illegal grooves use them until they eventually get rid of them
this way no one looses money and they illegal grooves will slowly be phazed out

personally, i dont care who uses what grooves
just because someone uses grooves that bite like a Rottweiler doesnt mean they will help that golfer out
its just like the spin milled, many people dont like them because they claim they have "too much bite"
golfs hard enough as it is, let us use what we want

[Kiwi battler]

Did they give me 10yrs notice before making my driver non conforming ??

[LobWedge]

Did they give me 10yrs notice before making my driver non conforming ??

Which driver?

[Kiwi battler]

The driver that they listes as non conforming as of 1/1/08 ...along with all the other the other drivers on the list some 30 pages long .....seems they let technology get ahead of things , and gave us a couple of years grace before making them obselete
A little like the clubs with wider sharper grooves that will remove from the game in 2024 or will they shift that date to 2010 ....
If they bring the date forward , a lot of people will make a lot of money , at the average golfers expense , once again

[jvincent]

We're sort of off topic here, but the driver issue was more problematic because the new testing procedure was susceptible to false positives and a bunch of manufacturers got caught with models that they thought were conforming that were later ruled non-conforming.

[AAA]

I think they have learnt from last time. Which is why they made such a long extension for mere mortal players.
However, many players seem to change their drivers mor often than their underwear.

[BC MIST]

In 1960 the Vardon trophy winner on the PGA tour (Billy Casper) had a 69.95 average. This year Padraig Harrington is leading the pack at 69.28. Got to be the wedges.

The numbers you use are as relevant as Casper eating buffalo meat and Harrington eating corned beef and cabbage, apple mash and boxty. So many variables in golf have changed in 48 years that comparing SA's of then and now is meaningless.

Those who win today, and in years gone by as well, are those who can chip, pitch and putt better than the rest. While doing these well is not as sexy or exciting as driving it far, they are the areas of the game that require the greatest amount of skill. The high spin wedges, IMO, bring the average to poorly skilled short game players too close to the level those who are superior.

[spackler]

The numbers you use are as relevant as Casper eating buffalo meat and Harrington eating corned beef and cabbage, apple mash and boxty. So many variables in golf have changed in 48 years that comparing SA's of then and now is meaningless.

Well how do you want to measure it then? Golf is scored the same way, under the same rules, then as now. Obviously the equipment has changed, but so to have the courses and as a result the scoring average stays much the same. Golf evolves and adapts.

Those who win today, and in years gone by as well, are those who can chip, pitch and putt better than the rest. While doing these well is not as sexy or exciting as driving it far, they are the areas of the game that require the greatest amount of skill. The high spin wedges, IMO, bring the average to poorly skilled short game players too close to the level those who are superior.

As evidenced by what? The best players on tour continue to win more often, and win more money, than the lesser skilled players. The best players win, not the best equipment. To say otherwise is to parrot the Golf Digest ads of TaylorMade and the like.

[jvincent]

Those who win today, and in years gone by as well, are those who can chip, pitch and putt better than the rest.

Sort of. Those who win are the ones who score the best. Period.

Statistically scoring is all about hitting greens and making putts. Hitting greens is easier the closer you are.

The real "problem" is the ball. The current tests for the ball don't represent the actual clubhead speeds of the big hitters. Limit the speed that the ball can travel and the distance problem will be largely solved.

[buykrux]

sure equipment makes a difference and usually makes you play better but who says more spin makes you play better?
i use spin milled wedges because i like my wedges to take on bounce and stop around the greens
my dad uses ping eye2 wedges because he likes to roll his in
so you are trying to say i have the advantage around the green because my wedges spin more?
2 different styles of play, and how much our wedges spin really dont tell us who the better player is
doesnt tom herron still use eye2s including wedges?
so because some of us use wedges with bigger better grooves, we are better players and have an advantage over him?
not at all, i think this whole wedge rule is rediculous
driver rule i can understand, but wedges???