Slow Play in Tournaments

[BC MIST]

SLOW PLAY is not only prevalent in casual rounds but tournament rounds, as well. Unless one IS a slow player, rounds exceeding 5 hours generally upset the natural momentum or flow that most of like to play with in order to play our best.

In the tournaments at which I have helped to officiate this season, the first groups finished on time, based on a Time Par system, however, the last groups were well over the 5 hour mark. Time Par is where a predetermined time is assigned for the group to play each hole, and so the pace of a group can be checked after the playing of any hole. A group behind time par is a group “out of position,” a group that will be told to pick up their pace and if they don’t, they are subject to individual timing. The standard RCGA policy is then to penalize a player 1 stroke for their first “bad” time over 40 seconds, 2 for the second and disqualification for the third. Now, has anyone ever been penalized for slow play?

It seems that the USGA, in some tournaments, is using a different system. There is still the use of time par, however, a group is checked for pace of play after 3 or 4 checkpoints, during the round. If the group exceeds the time allotted for checkpoint 1, say after 4 holes, they are “out of position”, told, and are expected to be through the second checkpoint, say at hole #8, on time. If they get “out of position” AND are 14 minutes behind the preceding group, at any time, the group is subject to penalty. What is interesting to me is that IF the group loses 5 minutes searching for a player’s ball, for example, they are expected to get caught up, “regardless of reason.” It seems that currently, if 5 minutes is lost, that no effort is made to get caught up. This is, IMO, the principle reason for the later groups to finish in over 5 hours. If players were forced to “move their butts” after a delay, or be penalized, the overall pace for tournament golf would be much improved.

There are suggestions that, and perhaps experiments being done in some provinces using the checkpoint system, that the RCGA may soon adopt this as their standard pace of play policy. But, any policy is only as good as those on the course actually enforcing it.

Just checked the GAO site. Here is the P of P policy for a particular tournament.
http://gao.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/gao...e-dd7c256e2847

[Nat Williams]

Let's say I am a player that plays at a fast pace, and I am continuously held up by my FC's.

We are warned of slow play and we are trying to catch up to the par time before the next checkpoint. Then on the last hole before our check up (in the case of GAO, this could be the 18th), I hit an errant tee shot, play a provisional, and head off looking for the 1st ball.

The rules of golf allow 5 minutes for me to find this ball, but 5 extra minutes will most likely put us out of position. Am I expected to waive my right to 5 minutes of searching in order to maintain time? Even if I have yet to be responsible for a delay? What if it is the 18th hole and I am in contention, what if finding this ball is the difference between winning and losing? Should I not get my 5 minutes without worrying about getting a penalty stroke for slow play? Slow play that wasn't even my fault?

IMO the only way to fairly asses delays it to put a group under surveillance after they come in out of position. Having the misfortune of being paired with slower players should not affect the way you play your own game (i.e. rushing your own rights as a golfer to compensate for the other members of the group).

I know that I would never sign up to play a tournament where I risked penalization based on who I get paired with. Even though I am a faster player, I'd rather clock in 5.5h rounds than risk a penalty I don't deserve. Especially with the above mentioned scenario (not that I'm likely to be in contention ).

[jvincent]

I've never quite understood the concept of penalizing the entire group.

If a group gets out of position it should be pretty straightforward for an official to monitor them and determine the cause.

There should also be some provision for catching up. Even the fastest group can have a bad hole and fall behind. If two holes later they are caught up there should be no penalties.

[HowardBrazee]

Saturday, our group was the first group in from a tournament - by a long shot. That's because we were the lead group in a shotgun tournament, and never had to wait.

Shotgun tournaments are slow. Whenever one group has to look for a ball (even with our 2 minute rule), other groups have to wait.

Although the major reason for slow-ups is unready players, it still applies. If the group ahead of mine has a slow player, the round will be slow.

[HowardBrazee]

The rules of golf allow 5 minutes for me to find this ball, but 5 extra minutes will most likely put us out of position. Am I expected to waive my right to 5 minutes of searching in order to maintain time? Even if I have yet to be responsible for a delay? What if it is the 18th hole and I am in contention, what if finding this ball is the difference between winning and losing? Should I not get my 5 minutes without worrying about getting a penalty stroke for slow play? Slow play that wasn't even my fault?
).

If the committee sets up a tournament rule that limits looking for the ball to 1 or 2 minutes, then everybody is under the same rules. That would speed things up. But if they don't, it would be unfair to only penalize those who are considerate.

[golfisforfun]

What if on every hole, someone has to spend 5 minutes looking for a ball? How are you supposed to make up time?

[jvincent]

That is covered by penalizing the individual player.

If you are on the clock, then sorry, you don't get to search for 5-minutes. Play a provisional and make sure you get it in play. If you can't keep a ball in play then you get DQ'd. Tough break, but it happens.

[Nat Williams]

I agree with that for sure. If someone is having a rough time and just throwing ball after ball out of play, then they have to adjust. My only problem with monitoring play is that the current systems allow for a situation like the one i outlined to happen, where the actions of a group can adversely affect the round of a single player.

[BC MIST]

What if on every hole, someone has to spend 5 minutes looking for a ball? How are you supposed to make up time?

Players who play in tournaments with pace of play guidelines in effect, are not normally weak enough players where a huge number of delays like you describe occur, unless the course is extremely tight and wooded. Then, spotters are placed on some of these holes to avoid searches.

Under the checkpoint system, if a group misses a checkpoint they are out of position, AND if they are a specified time behind the group in front (around 14 minutes) they are subject to penalty. Once a group is O of P, a roving rules official MAY monitor the offending group because a player in a group that is subject to penalty may be permitted to lodge an appeal if he feels that there is one player in the group responsible for the penalties and who has refused to do anything about getting caught up.

A lost ball or two requires some time to search causing the group to be delayed, however, as the next checkpoint may be 4 or 5 holes away, there is ample time for them to make up for this lost time. Currently, once a group is out of position a marshal or official, will follow and time the players. Players don't like the constant pressure of being monitored (neither do the officials) and so if the CP system is in effect, and the group is behind after checkpoint 1, then it is the group's responsibility to do something about it.

In a group, if there are 3 players who average 20 s, 30 s and 50 s to play a stroke, the group average is 33 s, still under the current 40 s guideline. If the checkpoint time is reasonable, then the group will easily meet the guideline, even though it has one very slow player.

At a recent tournament, simulating the CP system, a generous 4:30 pace was established with CP's at #4, #8, #13 and #18. We never checked the last 3 as EVERY group was ahead after 4 holes. Every group (threesomes) finished in 3:50 to 4:00, except the one lone foursome, and they finished in 4:12.

It will be very interesting to see if the RCGA's pace of play guidelines are changed next season and if the CP system is used. As too many tournament rounds exceed 5 hours, something has to change to speed things up. IMO, instead of "C'mon you guys, you have to pick it up," there was a simple consequence of "Add 1 stroke to your score for this hole," instead, the problem would be solved.

[sensfan63]

It will be very interesting to see if the RCGA's pace of play guidelines are changed next season and if the CP system is used. As too many tournament rounds exceed 5 hours, something has to change to speed things up. IMO, instead of "C'mon you guys, you have to pick it up," there was a simple consequence of "Add 1 stroke to your score for this hole," instead, the problem would be solved.

You CAN'T penalize an entire group for slow play. It's unequitable.

I'm not sure which tournaments the USGA uses the pace of play policy that you refer to, but I guarantee you that it's not any professional events. No way would anyone play if they were subject to penalties based on who they play with...and thus lose money as a result.

Do you really think that the system to which you refer is a good one?

[BC MIST]

You CAN'T penalize an entire group for slow play. It's unequitable.

Yes, you can. If the players do not meet the pace of play guidelines established by the Committee, then penalties are imposed. It is irrelevant whether you and I agree with them or not. The checkpoint system IS being used in some competitions, experimented with in others and may or may not be universally adopted here, in 2009 or after.

Slow play IS a problem on the PGA Tour and players are timed and fined. But, they need several bad times before they are fined. If they would be fined strokes, instead of dollars, the JB Holmes of the world would soon learn to move their butts. However, 99.9% of tournament players are amateurs and pace of play guidelines need to be implemented to address this slow play problem. And it is problem.

Do you really think that the system to which you refer is a good one?

In theory, yes. In practice, time will tell. Something different has to be done to speed up tournament play. If the current system in its entirety was working the 5 hour round would not exist. But it does.

The time getting to the various checkpoints in that system, must be reasonable. It must take in factors such as distances walking from greens to tees, the speed of the greens and perhaps others. It must also consider the players who are not causing the slow play, so that they will not be unfairly penalized, and it does, if you have read the guidelines from the GAO tournament listed below. There is some leeway. Missing a checkpoint AND being "14" minutes behind the preceeding group. This message for the group is, "Pick up the pace," and if you don't - penalties. Each group member is responsible for making up for whatever time is lost or whatever time they are behind, regardless of the reason.

What suggestions do you have that would solve the problem that the existing or proposed have not?


Final Determination Regarding Breach/ Review Process

Before returning his score card, a player who was out of position during his round may consult with the Pace of Play Committee to determine if he has incurred a penalty under these guidelines. The Pace of Play Committee will determine that a player who has been found to be out of position is not in breach of these guidelines only if:

1.
the player was delayed by the Committee; or
2.
the player was delayed by a circumstance beyond control of the player or the group; or
3.
the player was delayed by another player in the group

A player who was out of position during his round and who elects not to consult with the Pace of Play Committee to determine whether he was in breach of these guidelines is considered to have been in breach of these guidelines and to have incurred a penalty or penalties according to the Local Rule schedule of penalties.
If a group is liable to penalty, all penalties will be applied to the check-point hole where the breach occurred.

[sensfan63]

Yes, you can. If the players do not meet the pace of play guidelines established by the Committee, then penalties are imposed. It is irrelevant whether you and I agree with them or not. The checkpoint system IS being used in some competitions, experimented with in others and may or may not be universally adopted here, in 2009 or after.

Slow play IS a problem on the PGA Tour and players are timed and fined. But, they need several bad times before they are fined. If they would be fined strokes, instead of dollars, the JB Holmes of the world would soon learn to move their butts. However, 99.9% of tournament players are amateurs and pace of play guidelines need to be implemented to address this slow play problem. And it is problem.

In theory, yes. In practice, time will tell. Something different has to be done to speed up tournament play. If the current system in its entirety was working the 5 hour round would not exist. But it does.

The time getting to the various checkpoints in that system, must be reasonable. It must take in factors such as distances walking from greens to tees, the speed of the greens and perhaps others. It must also consider the players who are not causing the slow play, so that they will not be unfairly penalized, and it does, if you have read the guidelines from the GAO tournament listed below. There is some leeway. Missing a checkpoint AND being "14" minutes behind the preceeding group. This message for the group is, "Pick up the pace," and if you don't - penalties. Each group member is responsible for making up for whatever time is lost or whatever time they are behind, regardless of the reason.

What suggestions do you have that would solve the problem that the existing or proposed have not?
[/I]

That's not entirely true. On the PGA Tour, when a player accumulates 10 group timings, he is fined $20,000. Each subsequent timing is $5000. I have heard that Ben Crane wrote $80,000 worth of checks one year because of timings.

When a Tour player is getting timed and gets a bad time (over 40 seconds), I believe he gets a penalty stroke. However, bad times rarely occur because the player knows he is being timed and thus adjusts his pace.

Like I said earlier, it is unequitable to penalize an entire group for slow play. Take off the Rules Official hat, and put yourself in the position of a player. Let's say that you are a fast player (presumably from your tone, you are) and you are paired with two snail-paced players at the Canadian Seniors Championship. Your group falls well behind the "checkpoints" for no other reason than the two other guys in your group are retardedly slow. You shoot 67 and win by one shot, but because of slow-play penalties you lose by one. Unequitable? Of course it is.

[BC MIST]

Like I said earlier, it is unequitable to penalize an entire group for slow play. Take off the Rules Official hat, and put yourself in the position of a player. Let's say that you are a fast player (presumably from your tone, you are) and you are paired with two snail-paced players at the Canadian Seniors Championship. Your group falls well behind the "checkpoints" for no other reason than the two other guys in your group are retardedly slow. You shoot 67 and win by one shot, but because of slow-play penalties you lose by one. Unequitable? Of course it is.

I agree, but, if you read Final Determination Regarding Breach/ Review Process from above you will see that this problem is addressed. If a group is OP, then an official observes and can time the individuals.

You did not answer my question from above.

BTW: Having played in the Canadian Seniors Championship a couple of times, rest assured that it's not the seniors that are slow.