Water in sand trap

[Eldred]

When a ball entered a sand bunker and rest in water, what relief do you get?
My take is you must drop at the dry spot in the bunker. My opponent mentioned since the only dry area is now closer to the hole, he can opted to drop on grass.
We debated a bit since he no longer in the hazzard and benefitting from good lies.
Anyways, it happened twice and a couple of other players whom were in the same situation agreed with my playing opponent and took liberty of free drop outside the trap. In the back of my mind, I felt that should be a one stroke penalty, but got "out voted" on that rules.. Am I correct that there should be a penalty on that drop? Playing the guy again Tomorrow and need to find out asap.

[Pinshark]

You may not drop closer to the hole. You may get free relief if you can take said relief while still dropping in the bunker. If you must drop outside the bunker it is indeed a one stroke penalty, and you must keep the point where the ball lays and the flag in line going back as far as you want. It is rule 25.

[Kilroy]

Yup. Here is the relevant rule

Rule 25 (ii) In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause(i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or
(b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

[Indio]

Makes no sense to me! Why should a player be penalized because of course conditions?

[BC MIST]

Makes no sense to me! Why should a player be penalized because of course conditions?

Compare the difficulty of a sand shot to that of an equidistant shot from the fairway or rough. Is it fair to go from a shot where the odds are against the player getting up and down to one where the odds are in his favour, at no cost to the player? The penalty is appropriate.

[Indio]

Compare the difficulty of a sand shot to that of an equidistant shot from the fairway or rough. Is it fair to go from a shot where the odds are against the player getting up and down to one where the odds are in his favour, at no cost to the player? The penalty is appropriate.

I respectfully disagree on the degree of fairness. The person goes from about a 50/50 chance of making a par, to almost 0 chance of getting a par.

[Kilroy]

The rules are what they are. We can disagree all we like.

[Indio]

The rules are what they are. We can disagree all we like.

I agree, but that does not make them fair. I believe everyone would agree that there are some pretty dumb rules that make no sense.... but yes, they are the rules until the next generation of golfers come along and change them

[BC MIST]

I respectfully disagree on the degree of fairness. The person goes from about a 50/50 chance of making a par, to almost 0 chance of getting a par.

Right. And that's why there is a 1 stroke penalty to go from "0" chance of making a par to a "50/50" one.

[Indio]

Right. And that's why there is a 1 stroke penalty to go from "0" chance of making a par to a "50/50" one.

How have they gone from 0 chance to a 50/50 chance by taking a penalty stroke?

[dhacker1956]

One always has the option of playing it as it lies!!! Try getting par from under 2 or 3 inches of water!!

[mcgoo]

I'm with Indio on this one. When the bunkers are wading pools the bunkers should not be in play, they were not installed to be "water hazards". As with the Law, common sense has to prevail, you legal beagles should not prevail.

[buykrux]

Compare the difficulty of a sand shot to that of an equidistant shot from the fairway or rough. Is it fair to go from a shot where the odds are against the player getting up and down to one where the odds are in his favour, at no cost to the player? The penalty is appropriate.

not going to lie and you can confirm this with tacks451
if i had the choice to drop in the rough/fairway or a greenside bunker id take the bunker
i chunk chips like no tomorrow

[Eldred]

Funny thing was he nearly holed out from that improve lie 120ish yards away and almost gotten an eagle. My only birdie of the round happened to be at that hole, but for the time it was for a tie .. We ended the round with a draw, but I will be printing these posts and bring it tomorrow. Regardless what the buddy's response will be, at least I know I had won the match... Hopefully he'll have that quilty contions before our rematch .. We may not agreed nor like many rules, but that doesn't mean we could recreat and apply our own rules..Thanks to all.

[TP Tomi]

I believe everyone would agree that there are some pretty dumb rules that make no sense....

Yeah, specially that one about .. when you've roped one off the tee, just crushed a bomb out there,
into the wind .... and up hill .. .. it's one a the best tee shots you hit all day.
When you get to the ball, it's sitting in a divot .. and, you gotta play it.

But you can repair a divot on the green. You can even re-locate a boulder thats off the course, ala Tiger ..
But you have to hit it out of a divot? In the fairway? That someone else was kind enough not to fill in, after he hit?

Now there's a doozy ..

[Kiwi battler]

How long have you been allowes to repair a divot on the putting green ?

[TP Tomi]

How long have you been allowes to repair a divot on the putting green ?

Umm, once you're on the green, and your ball has been marked, you can fix as many divots as you wish.
Unless of course a new rule has come into play.

Or wait, this another one of those trick questions .. right?

[gbower]

TP I think you mean ball marks and not divots. Divots are not allowed to be repaired on the green but previous ball marks can be.

[AAA]

Makes no sense to me! Why should a player be penalized because of course conditions?

A bunker is a Hazard. The other form of Hazard is a Water Hazard.

You don't get free relief from dropping out of a Water Hazard why should you get free relief from a bunker.

Hazards in the world outside are often marked with a lightning symbol, indicating 'Danger, enter at your peril'.
Rainwater in bunkers is one of things you expect when you haven't got a roof to keep it out.

[BC MIST]

Yeah, specially that one about .. when you've roped one off the tee, just crushed a bomb out there,
into the wind .... and up hill .. .. it's one a the best tee shots you hit all day.
When you get to the ball, it's sitting in a divot .. and, you gotta play it.

You forgot, "Its got mud on it, too." Play the ball back in your stance, weight forward and hands ahead. Easy shot. C'mon. Enjoy the challenge that golf gives you sometimes or is the score that important? Actually had a divot shot yesterday after an ideal FW wood. Lipped out the 10' birdie putt. Darn. Had I been able to declare the divot ground under repair, I would have made the birdie.

I do find it bizarre that there are some who hit a bad shot and yet want a get out of jail (bunker) free card or those who hit a perfect shot and expect a perfect lie. Of course, if you duck hook the ball into the bush and it hits a tree and comes back to the fairway into a perfect lie, FAIRNESS dictates that you would want to drop the ball back in the bush where it belongs. Golf is a game of imperfections, from our swings to course conditions and it is not always fair.

Maybe we should just throw out the rule book and let golfers do whatever they want. Yes, I know, but not everyone does.

[TP Tomi]

TP I think you mean ball marks and not divots. Divots are not allowed to be repaired on the green but previous ball marks can be.

LOL .. ok .. yeah, a ball mark made with my 9 iron on a par 3 is called a divot.
It, along with a few others, gets repaired with my *divot tool* while my partners are either marking their ball,
or discussing their *line* with themselves.

[TP Tomi]

You forgot, "Its got mud on it, too." Play the ball back in your stance, weight forward and hands ahead. Easy shot. C'mon. Enjoy the challenge that golf gives you sometimes or is the score that important?

I can play the shot .. I've had my fair share of them ..
Just think it's a stupid * rule .. get *penalized* for making a perfect shot off the tee.

Just a dumb rule .. IMHO anyway ..

[Kilroy]

The tool you carry to fix pitch marks should not really be called a divot tool. Unfortunately manufacturers of these things don't care and have adopted the term.

Scotty Cameron calls his desighn a "Pivot" tool referring to the hinge at the center of it, while playing on the adoped name. To me that only adds to the confusion.

A divot is the hole left by turf removed with your club while striking the ball.
A pitch mark is made by a ball impacting the turf.

You don't see too many divots on greens. Mostly pitch marks.

[Indio]

I knew I should have gone with my first instinct and kept out of voicing an opinion in the rules forum. As usual, anyone who has a descenting view on SOME of the RCGA's outdated and archaiac rules gets the usual response from those who have bought into them, studied them and now preach them.

[Kilroy]

Sorry if my comment offended you Indio.

[Kiwi battler]

Geez , there must be some other game similar to golf , that has newer rules ?

[Indio]

Sorry if my comment offended you Indio.

Now Dan, you know me, I can't be offended, especially over something like this.

I just get frustrated that there are so many people who say that the rules of golf are way out of date and there are really dumb rules on the books yet they will support something like this to death. I only hope I am around to see the positive changes when the next generation of golfer takes over running the R&A, RCGA and USGA

IMHO the response I got to my opinion was not a thought out response but a response of someone who's reacting defensively in protection of the almight golf bible and it made no sense whatsoever. When I asked how so, I got no response. They have made their opinion of Indio and respond in such a manner and I have made my opinion of them and is best I stay clear of discussions with them.

Sometimes a person's passion for the rules of the game and the game itself, clouds their common sense.

No offence taken from your comments my dear man

[Kilroy]

Ok.

Still... I am one of the "Converted". I learned to have a lot of love and respect for the rules of the great game we play. Just remember that the next gen of rules overseers will be hand picked by the current gen, as they were by the gen before them. They view themselves more as the guardians of tradition than anything else. Changing a rule of golf is not something they take lightly.

[Indio]

Ok.

Still... I am one of the "Converted". I learned to have a lot of love and respect for the rules of the great game we play. Just remember that the next gen of rules overseers will be hand picked by the current gen, as they were by the gen before them. They view themselves more as the guardians of tradition than anything else. Changing a rule of golf is not something they take lightly.

Yup, you are one of the converted but you get off your pulpit once in a while and agree that some rules are simple dumb.

ya i know, but eventually the 'blue blood' line of traditionalists will be won over to see just how much the rules need to be updated

[Kilroy]

Spike marks