In the Ottawa Sun this morning

[redgun22]

He guys. get with the program.
There isn't a course within 150 miles of ottawa that can host the Canadian Open.
...
It just won't happen. Take it from an informed local.
We need better Golf courses.

I agree to a certain extent. There are few obvious candidates in the Ottawa area as all of the top contenders have issues that would have to be overcome. Not because they aren't good courses... just because they are limited by the land around them.

On course length... believe it or not, length is not everything. Hamilton was under 7000 yards, only has a rating of 71.0 (par 70) and slope of 127... and still, under Tour conditions, the winner was at -8.

One factor that many seem to be ignoring is that a PGA event - especially a national Open - would NEVER be awarded to a course that doesn't have significant tournament experience. Even brand new top tier courses in other cities have had to build their way up by hosting Skins games, LPGA events, Canadian Amateurs... basically events that test/prove their ability to handle crowds, corporate tents, traffic, broadcast equipment, etc.

By this measure, I believe that there are only four courses in the area that have any hope of hosting such an event and they all have issues:

EAGLE CREEK
PROS: Good course, rural location that could handle the crowds (if they would make the effort to get all the way out there), some tournament experience with Canadian tour events.
CONS: Canadian tour events have no where close to the size of crowds of PGA events... I would argue that the Creek has not yet had a big enough test. Also they'd have to do something significant to toughen it up... recent pro events had "nobodies" winning with -20s scores... imagine what Tiger/Vijay/Mike might score. Far from hotels, restaurants, etc. for players.

OTTAWA HUNT
PROS: Good course with good history and sufficient tournament experience ('94 LPGA, distant Cnd Amateurs and Opens). Has an extra nine that could be temporarily canibalized to make room for tournament infrastructure. Influencial membership that might have sway with RCGA. Par 72, so could be easily toughened by making it a Par 70 and modifying a few holes. Close to open land that could be used for parking/overflow infrastructure.
CONS: Would need an entirely redesigned range (not nearly big enough) - can you see a shuttle service over to a spruced up Airport golfland? Would need to be lengthened and toughened (might not have the land to do it).

ROYAL OTTAWA
PROS: Good course with good history and sufficient tournament experience ('00 LPGA, '91 Cnd Amateur, several distant Amateurs and Opens). Has an extra nine that could be temporarily canibalized to make room for tournament infrastructure. Influencial membership that might have sway with RCGA. Layout and tough greens make for tough scoring - witness only 6 players under par at '00 LPGA. Fantastic old clubhouse that looks good on TV. Pretty smooth traffic and parking experience from LPGA (parking/shuttle from Aylmer Hippodrome).
CONS: Would need to be lengthened (might not have the land to do it) and toughened to make sure the men don't tear it apart. Only Par 71, so could only change one par 5 to a long par 4 to toughen.

THE MARSHES
PROS: Has the length and design to test the modern game... especially if a couple of Par 5s were converted to LONG Par 4s. Rich owner that might have sway with RCGA and/or sponsors.
CONS: Too new, untested tournament infrastructure... only the promised European Tour event could help... and that might already be too late this time around. Would look horrible on TV (office towers everywhere). Close to lots of parking, but where would office workers park on Thu/Fri?

Just my 2 cents...

[mberube]

He guys. get with the program.
There isn't a course within 150 miles of ottawa that can host the Canadian Open.

Montreal is within 150 miles and it hosted the CDN Open before.

What about Rivermead? I never played there but the Tunis is played at that course every year and the score are not very low.

[Andru]

He guys. get with the program.
There isn't a course within 150 miles of ottawa that can host the Canadian Open.
We just don't have the facilities that can handle the traffic.
The Hunt had trouble with the ladies tournament. Eagle Creek couldn't handle the people and Hospitality tents. And the Marshes course is just not good enough. Inspite of what they want you to beleive. Can you imagine a train going thru with the players teeing off or having to aim at a high tech building to get the right line of a fairway. The Presidents Cup or Ryder Cup will never happen here also.
The Canadian tour is a far cry from the National Open. Good Luck with your dreams.
It just won't happen. Take it from an informed local.

We need better Golf courses.

I agree 100% with you I was just trying to keep the conversation open because it's interesting. It's really not in the cards for a while.

[Andru]

Hamilton had some windy conditions which brought the scores down. Also It's a really really tight track.

[mr shank]

He guys. get with the program.
There isn't a course within 150 miles of ottawa that can host the Canadian Open.
We just don't have the facilities that can handle the traffic.
the Marshes course is just not good enough. Inspite of what they want you to beleive. Can you imagine a train going thru with the players teeing off or having to aim at a high tech building to get the right line of a fairway. Good Luck with your dreams.
It just won't happen. Take it from an informed local.

Take it from an informed local?

What makes you the local authority?

Do you think the people posting here are not informed locals because they want to discuss the "hypothetical" of a PGA or Euro tour event?

As was already pointed out, Montreal is within 150 miles of Ottawa, and has hosted a PGA event. They couldn't handle the traffic, but had the event anyway.

As far as the Marhes not being good enough, I also heard that Terry Matthews is planning a Euro event there. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens.

"Imagine a train running going thru with players teeing off" - isn't there a hole on Carnoustie with trains tracks running along side?

When you start your post with "hey guys get with the program" & end off with "take it from an informed local" - you better make sure you've got your facts straight first. There are many here who are "informed locals" and are able to share information without being condescending.

[TelUrMomISayThx]

Last time the CPGA played Rideau View there was a course record set the first day, and that was with the rough over a foot tall. PGA players would eat that course up even with it playing over 7000 yards.

I've never played it, but what about The Marshes? Other than that I don't think there are any courses around that would stand up to PGA standards without major changes.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone here for a second. That is giving the wrong impression of the tournament that was played at Rideau View.

First of all, the rough was not over a foot tall. It was long, but not that long. More like 7 inches but very thick. And i don't remember if there was a course record set the first day, i'll take your word for it. But Dodds was not more than 15 under, i think it was around 13, and won. That was when the course was only playing it's 6950-ish yardage. It has been stretched quite a bit since then and has the land to do more. Not to mention that he won 3 times that year and set an earnings record, obviously showing that he had a good year. Also, alot of the trees were too young and were not a factor back then, but have made the course considerably harder within the last 3-4 years. They have also spent ALOT of money on new fairway and greenside bunkers.

Point is that it has been along time since 1995 when the CPGA was played there. The pros did not "eat the course up" back then and would have an even harder time playing it now. These guys are pros, they are expected to make birdies. I think 10-15 under is expected for a tournament, because a PGA tournament in Ottawa is not going to be US open caliber.

No matter what course a pro is playing on, if he's having a good day then he'll shoot the lights out. But unlike Mr. Shank was saying, Rideau View wouldn't be the type of course that the entire field is going to do so.

When Jeff Quinney, a US Amateur Winner, came to play at Rideau View's Pro-Am with Brad Fritsch, they played the back tees without the new bunkers and went into a playoff with 68s. I think that is respectable for Rideau View given their caliber of play.

When Rideau View hosted the Quebec Am., Curry was the only one who shot the lights out(omitting his last hole). If you ask the QGA if they were satisfied with the course setup, they will tell you they were more than impressed. And these are the same officials that have worked at Royal Montreal, Royal Ottawa, ElmRidge, etc.

Does Rideau View and other courses have changes that need to be made to the course design before a PGA Tournament is held there? Absolutely. But there are very few courses in Ottawa that have the potential (like i mentioned above, Rideau View is putting serious money into new bunkers). But some of these course you are naming do not stand a chance.

Obviously the Can. Tour would not get the same attention as a PGA event. And i would agree with the recent posts that i don't think Rideau View or courses in Ottawa have the right infrastructure to hold everything that goes along with a PGA tour event (ie. the huge crowds, the tents, scoreboards, etc). I have played En Joie, site of the BC open, and the course was designed for a tournament. Scoreboards on the course and a building for press and corporate boxes on the 18th green that stay up all year.
But just based on course layout, i think premier courses like Rideau View do not deserve the disrespect of "The pros will shoot the lights out". If that's the case, what are your thoughts on TPC at scottsdale? Records are set there every year in scoring.

Personally, i would rather watch a tournament where the leader is near par, like a US open, or where the leaders are going deep, 25-30 under for a tournament. Makes things more interesting.

Am I a member at Rideau View? You're damn right and wouldn't want to be a member elsewhere.

[Ginker]

As far as having a tour event at the Hunt goes, I have never played the track but if there are any one here who is a member please take me!!!!!
Cheers.

[Andru]

The TPC at scotsdale is set up easy so the pros do score low. It's a 'rubbing elbows' event not a national championship. If the FBR open organizers want to bring the scores down, they can and they will.

[mr shank]

but have made the course considerably harder within the last 3-4 years.

Mr. Shank was saying, Rideau View wouldn't be the type of course that the entire field is going to do so.

Am I a member at Rideau View? You're damn right and wouldn't want to be a member elsewhere.

Thanks for letting everyone know you're a member at Rideau View, I'm sure we're all better people for knowing that.

What has been done to make the course harder in the last 3 or 4 years?
I play there 3 times each summer & haven't noticed the changes other than improvememtns to the bunkers, which certainly didn't make the course harder.

Nowhere did I say the entire field would destroy Rideau View. Obviously not every player can shoot lights out every round, regardless of what course they are on. Everyone knows that, you don't need to point it out.

A lot has changed since 1995, these guys are hitting the ball much further than they were 9 years ago. Rideau View is a great track, but there will never be a PGA tour stop there. Not a chance.

[mberube]

If the FBR open organizers want to bring the scores down, they can and they will.

I agree Andru. The Can. Open will be played at Glen Abby this Year. With time, patience and money, that course could be US Open quality. Let the rough grow and speed up the greens as fast as possible then you will see that Par is a good score.

To keep the scores low the players must be penalized as much as possible if they miss the fairways and the greens.

[BC MIST]

Rivermead, the Royal Ottawa and The Hunt Club are beautiful golf courses and would be enjoyed by the pros for a social game, however, they are way too short to entertain the best players in the world. The Royal is the most difficult of the three by far because of its small, incredibly fast greens, and the uneven lies in the fairways, but it is not PGA Tour calibre.

The Marshes would be a possibility, were it not for the 6 par 3's, because it has suitable length on the par 4's and par 5's, a good range and parking nearby.

IMO, the best choice of the local courses to hold an open would be Rideau View or Eagle Creek, and with a few modifications, each could be made more challenging, but the winning scores would still be quite low, and so what? However, and it is unfortunate the a previous poster was accused of being condescending for telling the truth in his comment that the Ottawa area does not have a PGA Tour calibre course, but he is right, that while we have many very nice courses and Rideau View is certainly one of the best, but Oak Hill's, we just don't have.

[wopstergolf]

I have to agree with Mr. Shank on the Rideauview issue. I like the golf course and know several members there, but I find that the members there have a way of thinking that the course is better than it really is. It's definately nice and kept very clean, but it just would not be a hard enough test for a PGA Tour pro. Not a chance. The only courses in the area that could do it would be Royal Ottawa, Eagle Creek and the Marshes. I would have to give the nod to the Marshes because it is a very difficult course, which, if prepared properly, could definately give the PGA pros a tough time. Just my opinion.

[sensfan63]

I agree Andru. The Can. Open will be played at Glen Abby this Year. With time, patience and money, that course could be US Open quality. Let the rough grow and speed up the greens as fast as possible then you will see that Par is a good score.

To keep the scores low the players must be penalized as much as possible if they miss the fairways and the greens.

Wow, what a great thread, so much response...

About the FBR Open...no they can't bring the scores down. The tournament is played in February, which means conditions are not ideal for growing grass, which means that the rough really can't be a factor. The PGA Tour already sets the hole locations a minimum of three paces from edges of greens, and they just moved that number a year ago, down from four paces. Of course, not every hole location is three paces from the edge, it's just a minimum. And the greens at the TPC are already fast, it's not like they can speed them up much more. You know those Tour commercials, these guys are good? Scores are low because they are good.

In reference to Glen Abbey, there is a reason that the Canadian Open fields are so weak (ie. no Tiger, no Ernie, no Phil), and part of that reason is that very few pros actually enjoy playing Glen Abbey. Same with Angus Glen. They loved Hamilton last year, however, and I think that if the RCGA continues to put the Open on courses such as Hamilton, then interest among the Tour pros will begin to surface again.

Now, in terms of a PGA Tour event in Ottawa...I think we'll have to wait and see whether the European Tour comes to the Marshes, which I personally think would be a mistake. It's not the "six par-fives" argument, because as a few of you said, they could make them par-fours. But having six par-threes in a professional event? Ugh. The amount of time the rounds would take would be much more than a typical pro event, and those rounds are long enough already.

The two courses that would have a chance, just in terms of quality, are Eagle Creek and Rideauview. Logistics would be difficult, but the influx of money that comes from hosting such an event would definitely be worth it.

Like many of you say, "my 2 cents."

[mberube]

I'll say it again, Club Link has built PGA tour quality courses in the past. Last year they built the Talon. This course will open in Jun. I have not seen the scorecard yet but I thing this is going to be a PGA tour quality course.

Don't forget that they built Fontaine Bleau. This course will be hosting the skin’s game.

Club Link also has Glen Abby, Le maitre, Val des Lacs.......

[mr shank]

However, and it is unfortunate the a previous poster was accused of being condescending for telling the truth in his comment that the Ottawa area does not have a PGA Tour calibre course, but he is right, that while we have many very nice courses and Rideau View is certainly one of the best, but Oak Hill's, we just don't have.

Better read my post again BC, I did not accuse golferwilliam of being condescending for saying that the Ottawa area does not have a PGA calibre course - he's right, there isn't a PGA calibre course in the Ottawa area.

What I referred to as condescending is comments like "Get with the program" & "Take it from an informed local" - implying others posting here are not informed, & don't have a clue as to what is required to host a PGA event. This from someone who has posted 5 times here.

I said those comments are condscending because they are.

[Andru]

Sensfan

As far as the FBR goes. Yes they can. I don't feel like getting into this, but think of Bay Hill and how high the ball bounces when it hits the green. Think of the match play tournament this week. When the pros were only getting 3-5 yards of roll vs. 20-30.

The pros don't come to tha Canadian open for several reasons.

1) The purse is mid-tier
2) The majors are done and most of the top pros are taking time off.
3) There's no prestige. As Canadians we like to believe our National Open is Popular with the exception of Mike Weir and the other Candians it's NOT. It's just another tournament to these guys. It falls somewhere between the John Deere Classic and the Skins Game. If it weren't for VJ and Mike Weir, there would have been no one from the top ten and it has nothing to do with the course.
4) This year could be a great field. Yes @ Glen Abbey because the Ryder Cup is a week after.

[sensfan63]

Sensfan

As far as the FBR goes. Yes they can. I don't feel like getting into this, but think of Bay Hill and how high the ball bounces when it hits the green. Think of the match play tournament this week. When the pros were only getting 3-5 yards of roll vs. 20-30.

The pros don't come to tha Canadian open for several reasons.

1) The purse is mid-tier
2) The majors are done and most of the top pros are taking time off.
3) There's no prestige. As Canadians we like to believe our National Open is Popular with the exception of Mike Weir and the other Candians it's NOT. It's just another tournament to these guys. It falls somewhere between the John Deere Classic and the Skins Game. If it weren't for VJ and Mike Weir, there would have been no one from the top ten and it has nothing to do with the course.
4) This year could be a great field. Yes @ Glen Abbey because the Ryder Cup is a week after.

If you read my previous post, I stated that ONE of the reasons for pros not coming to the Canadian Open was their disdain for Glen Abbey. It's well known that most of them don't care for the course, and I can't say that I blame them. The front side is very ordinary, and I guess there are a few holes on the back that are OK.

Anyways, don't hold your breath for a great field. I suppose you never know, but past years tell us that won't be the case.

[Rough Stuff]

...Glen Abbey. It's well known that most of them don't care for the course, and I can't say that I blame them. The front side is very ordinary, and I guess there are a few holes on the back that are OK.

Thank you for saying this. This has been my experience as well.

[Andru]

If you read my previous post, I stated that ONE of the reasons for pros not coming to the Canadian Open was their disdain for Glen Abbey. It's well known that most of them don't care for the course, and I can't say that I blame them. The front side is very ordinary, and I guess there are a few holes on the back that are OK.

Anyways, don't hold your breath for a great field. I suppose you never know, but past years tell us that won't be the case.

I never hold my breath that's why I went to the PGA in Rochester last year.

The fact that they don't like the course is minimal if at all a factor. I was listing more probable reasons. I forgot to mention more, like Ryder Cup Points. There are some pretty ordinary courses with big events just because of the calendar and stature of the sponsor. One that comes to mind is The Funai Classic @Disney YAWN. But the field including Tiger shows up. He lives in Orlando that may help.

All I'm saying is Glen Abbey isn't that bad. It's certainly not the reason the pros aren't showing up to play the Canadian Open. Augusta National is the only course that would factor into a players decision to play. If The Masters wasn't a major it would still draw a great field because the course is that good.

It's all personal taste I guess. I know people who think Le Dome is a great track. I thought it was silly. I only played it because I had free passes and it's golf. Golf is never really bad.

Obviously any evidence offered to this debate is anecdotal at best. So we can Agree to Disagree.

[TelUrMomISayThx]

Shank, All i was trying to point out is the comment "pros would eat that course up" is an unfair statement. To me, it sounded like you were implying that it would be a complete joke if Rideau View held a tournament. By no means am i saying it would be the toughest test in Ottawa. But i think if you look at the results from previous pros and world-class amateurs, you would see that it faired up well, given the talent of the players. The best players in the world are expected to make birdies. Do i think it could hold a PGA Tournament? Maybe, maybe not...but like i said before, it would need serious changes before doing so. Just like any course in Ottawa would need changes before it is able to hold a PGA event.

I have also heard that Matthews is trying to bring an Pro event to the marshes. However, doesn't the agreement include the stipulation that changes (suggested by the R&A) must be made to the course? Perhaps i'm getting this mixed up with his course in Scotland.

If you or anyone else do not think Rideau has become tougher within the last few years, so be it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Obviously what i think is not what everyone else thinks. I have noticed changes not only with the rough, but with the addition of the bunkers and trees growing bigger every year.

As for Glenn Abbey, i agree with sensfan. I'm pretty sure that even Mike Weir has said he doesn't like the course. But feels obligated to play in it because it's his national open. Wasn't the Canadian open one of the premier events a long time ago? Obviously something happened which was enough to convince these guys not to bother competing, including the Glenn abbey course itself. If it weren't for its changes in venue after the RCGA sold GA, the tournament would still be in it's spiraling downfall. I think the disdain for the course is one of the major reasons. Players don't like it, so they don't play. Lack of a strong field leads to lack of interests by sponsors, etc.

Anyone know why they moved their office back there?

[wahz]

Let's face it. At any premier golf course (like rideau view, the hunt, royal, the mead), there will be members who think their course is one of the best. After all, why would you want to join a course that you don't enjoy playing? You will find this "my course is the best" opinion any where you go. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I don't really see any course in Ottawa being able to hold a PGA event right now. But if certain courses made major changes just to accomodate the talet of the modern player, i think some courses around here have a good foundation for an event. I think the marshes is the toughest test of golf there is in Ottawa (damn #2), but couldn't agree more with the idea of 6 par 3s.
I guess time will tell...and maybe money

I don't know why the RCGA moved back, but i was at an RCGA tournament last year and spoke to some of their employees. Not that this was publicly stated, but they were unimpressed with the condition of the course after it was taken over by Clublink. Maybe that had something to do with it.

[Andru]

As for Glenn Abbey, i agree with sensfan. I'm pretty sure that even Mike Weir has said he doesn't like the course. But feels obligated to play in it because it's his national open. Wasn't the Canadian open one of the premier events a long time ago? Obviously something happened which was enough to convince these guys not to bother competing, including the Glenn abbey course itself. If it weren't for its changes in venue after the RCGA sold GA, the tournament would still be in it's spiraling downfall. I think the disdain for the course is one of the major reasons. Players don't like it, so they don't play. Lack of a strong field leads to lack of interests by sponsors, etc.
Anyone know why they moved their office back there?

Thanks for proving my point any evidence offered in this debate is anecdotal at BEST.

How about I offer up some FACTS.

FACT #1 There's 4 BIG tournaments leading up to the Can-Open
FACT #2 When the Can-Open was 1 of 25 tour events and the purse was one of the richest it meant something. Now The purse is mid-tier and it's 1 of 48 tour events.
FACT #3 There are 3 big tournamants AFTER the Candian open starting end of September. Players are taking breaks. That's a fact if you would like to dispute it check the schedules of the top ten playes last year.
FACT #4 Vancouver had a great course and they couldn't draw nike/buy.com/nationwide tour players. Hence Like you said they couldn't draw fans and sponsors.

I'm sure you're right there may be a few tour players who don't like the course, but to categorically proclaim a major reason the Canadian Open is drawing weak fields is Glen Abbey. Given the facts I've presented. There's probably 4 or 5 more pressing issues than Glen Abbey itself. Which hasn't hosted it since 2000.

[BC MIST]

(1) What I referred to as condescending is comments like "Get with the program" & "Take it from an informed local" - implying others posting here are not informed...
(2) This from someone who has posted 5 times here.

(1) Considering the fact that you are the one who said this, ... did you ever think - heaven forbid - that these fields are dominated by men because they are smarter and/or work harder? then maybe there is some truth in what the poster from (1) above stated, about some posters, at least one for sure, being uninformed. I can just imagine how you feel about Ms. Bagger playing in the Ladies" Australian Open.

(2) Isn't your comment about my posting here only 5 times, a little condescending on your part, too? I did not realize that one's IQ is a measure of the number of posts one makes on this forum.

[Kilroy]

Please stop the bickering and get back on topic.

[mberube]

Please stop the bickering and get back on topic.

Amen to that

[Farzin]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Obviously what i think is not what everyone else thinks. ?

After reading all the very informing posts in this forum, I still think Falcon Ridge is the toughest test of golf in Ottawa and if Club Links or somebody else spends a few dollar there, it has the best potential for a PGA tour event.
I don't expect nobody to agree with me, but time will tell,

[jeffc]

here's my take.

With no offense to Falcon Ridge, it is no even close to being a PGA calibre course. Other than being long, it is not even close to being suitable to hosting a PGA event without starting from scratch. It's also nowhere as difficult as Eagle Creek which would be my pick as the best of the bunch.

Regarding the Canadian Open, it's move (by the PGA) a bunch of years back from July to September was what really hurt it. It went from being one of the better attended events to being one of the fall events that no one at the top of the money cares about since all the majors have been played and they've all made lots of cash. Most of the fall events are like this.

[Farzin]

here's my take.

It's also nowhere as difficult as Eagle Creek which would be my pick as the best of the bunch..

I have played them both, I did not find Eagle Creek neither a difficult course nor very atractive, I had very high expectation of the course when I played it. I scored one of my best rounds there while I was at my worst. Greens are much better and the course is in better conditon too, but I don't think it's the best of bunch either. Just my take.

[mberube]

I did not find Eagle Creek neither a difficult course nor very atractive

I played Eagle Creek a few days after the Eagle Creek Classic a couple of years ago. Let me tell you that the course was brutality difficult to play. The rough was extremely high and thick. The greens were lightning fast. I hade never played that course in those conditions.

If the pros come to town, you can bet your pants that the course they will play on will be in a playing condition you have never played on.

[jeffc]

and not difficult? and Falcon Ridge is? really?

By best of the bunch I meant with respect to holding a PGA event.