no way to hit your club without damaging it...

[hoolio]

I'm with Denny 100% here. You can preach to me about rules until the cows come home, but at the end of the day I guess I don't really care. If I'm 20 yards in the bush and my ball is sitting on a rock and the only thing gained by moving the ball a couple inches is that I get to go home without a big gash in my golf clubs then by all means I'm taking some free relief.

If I'm in the rough and the ball is resting against a tree and I'm going to damage my club on a full swing follow through then I don't move the ball so that I can have a wonderfully luxuriously swing, I just take my medicine and punch out.

Are both of those breaking the rules? Sure they are. Do I feel that I've gained a significant advantage in both instances? Only if you consider going home with your investment in good condition a significant advantage.

[Foddz]

Oh well. We tried.

The problem is that sometimes it is impractical to play by the rules.

Take the instance an unexpected lost ball off the tee. Your drive was decent, perhaps you sliced it a bit and it went in the rough. No big deal, happens to everyone. You get up there, and you can't find it. Proper procedure dictates you walk 250 yards back to the tee box and hit another one. Great, no problem if there's nobody waiting on the tee box behind you, you don't have any time restrictions on your round, and your fellow golfers don't mind waiting for 10 minutes while you walk there, hit, and walk back again. In the real world, this is often not the case.

In the case of this thread, I would consider anyone trying to play off a rock at risk of damaging their clubs and their person to be recklessly anal Would definately move my ball, taking an unplayable lie, myself

[Kilroy]

I would consider anyone trying to play off a rock at risk of damaging their clubs and their person to be recklessly anal Would definately move my ball, taking an unplayable lie, myself

Exactly.
I'm only questioning why so many think the relief should be free.

[rezadue]

Not taking any sides here, as I have already stated that I have designated a club in my bag as the hacking club. But for those of you who would normally move your ball without incurring a penalty, how do you proceed if you are in this situation during a match play? What if your competitor believes in play it as it lies?

[dbleber]

Match play, tourny's or any other competitive golf then yes play or take the proper course of action. Playing with friends on Saturday, when the course is jammed, then just move it and get going.

[GarthM]

Match play, tourny's or any other competitive golf then yes play or take the proper course of action. Playing with friends on Saturday, when the course is jammed, then just move it and get going.

What's the difference between "move it" and taking an unplayable... besides the penalty not associated with "move it"? There shouldn't be any difference between match play, tourneys/competitive golf and your Saturday round with buds IMHO. Play by the rules man....

G.

[jonf]

Exactly. Case in point, I hit one off the gravel in Belleville and ended up winning the hole. Closed out my match on the next hole. If I had taken a drop, probably would have lost the hole since my drop option would have resulted in a crappy lie and stance.

You couldn't even tell that the shot was played from gravel once I wiped the club off.

I think in most cases those dings are far from badges of glory. They are reminders of failed shots and that time you put your ball in the in drink because you hit a rock, and on top of it managed to put a nice gouge in your brand new club. Sure, there are those times when you pull off something incredible, but more often than not you screw up your club or your round, or both. Not good for the club, the game, or the blood pressure. Unless its competitive, I see no problem with moving the ball 2 inches to save yourself (and the playing partners who will have to listen to you whine about your club for the next 16 holes) a lot of grief.

[jvincent]

Not good for the club, the game, or the blood pressure. Unless its competitive, I see no problem with moving the ball 2 inches to save yourself (and the playing partners who will have to listen to you whine about your club for the next 16 holes) a lot of grief.

Unlike many who play this game, I don't take the game that seriously and have been known to make the occasional bad course management decision in the name of having fun. Sometime is works out, some times it doesn't.

I'm as careful as the next guy with his clubs, and take care of mine too. But they are golf clubs. That means they are going to hit dirt, rocks, sticks, etc. No biggie for me.

[sensfan63]

You know, ever since some people on this forum went and took the test to become accredited RCGA rules officials, some attitudes have changed regarding rules, handicap, etc. Good for all of you for taking the time to volunteer (I think) and help out with tournaments and rules education.
However, here is where MOST players stand - if you're going to damage a club or put yourself in harm's way FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE FAIRWAY, then most of us will move the ball 6 inches to the side, take no penalty, and go on our merry way. Our playing partners don't care, nor should you. In a tournament, well, hopefully the bad area will be marked. Now, if you've hit it into the gunch and the same situation arises, MOST players will take a penalty and drop.
Are MOST of these players cheating? According to the rules, I suppose so. Should they be forever banned from competing in tournaments? No. Not even close.
Remember, every one of us breaks the law every single time that we get behind the wheel of a car. Everyone speeds.

[jvincent]

You know, ever since some people on this forum went and took the test to become accredited RCGA rules officials, some attitudes have changed regarding rules, handicap, etc.

I think that's an unfair statement.

I'm not one of the acredited Rules officials and I've got the same opinion and from what the posts that the others have made historically I can say that the opinions haven't changed.

If you're just playing for fun, fine. But the entire premise of maintaining an accurate handicap is that you should be playing according to the rules. It's that simple.

[sensfan63]

I think that's an unfair statement.

I'm not one of the acredited Rules officials and I've got the same opinion and from what the posts that the others have made historically I can say that the opinions haven't changed.

If you're just playing for fun, fine. But the entire premise of maintaining an accurate handicap is that you should be playing according to the rules. It's that simple.

Well, I haven't kept a handicap in years and I play competitively all the time. You can tell me that I'm "playing golf" and am not "a golfer", but i don't care, and many others don't either.

By the way, I wasn't referring to you in particular. Actually, it was Dan. And it's not a personal attack. I just never remember Dan harping on the rules as much before...now, it could very well be that this was because there wasn't a dedicated forum for "Rules" and the topic never came up as much. But there has to be a reason that in the last four months, "Rules" has been stressed an unusual amount.

I think that there are as many on one side as there are on the other...

[GarthM]

You know, ever since some people on this forum went and took the test to become accredited RCGA rules officials, some attitudes have changed regarding rules, handicap, etc. Good for all of you for taking the time to volunteer (I think) and help out with tournaments and rules education.
However, here is where MOST players stand - if you're going to damage a club or put yourself in harm's way FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE FAIRWAY, then most of us will move the ball 6 inches to the side, take no penalty, and go on our merry way. Our playing partners don't care, nor should you. In a tournament, well, hopefully the bad area will be marked. Now, if you've hit it into the gunch and the same situation arises, MOST players will take a penalty and drop.
Are MOST of these players cheating? According to the rules, I suppose so. Should they be forever banned from competing in tournaments? No. Not even close.
Remember, every one of us breaks the law every single time that we get behind the wheel of a car. Everyone speeds.

I agree with jvincent that you are being a little harsh in your first statement. I know the individuals of which you speak and their opinions on the rules have not changed since getting their accreditations.

I would also like to know which course you are playing that has hazardous rocks in the middle of the fairway -- so I won't play there ever, period. I fail to see how there can be such hazardous conditions to put yourself in "harm's way" in the middle of the fairway.

Why is there a difference between the "gunch" as you call it and the fairway? What if you hit into a divot? Is it not a potentially dangerous situation of which you speak? Why should you be "allowed" to move it then and not in the "gunch"?

Are these players cheating??? Yes. Should they be banned. No, however they better dammed well play by the rules, especially if they are in my group.

FWIW I thought speed limits were recommendations not rules....

[Kilroy]

You know, ever since some people on this forum went and took the test to become accredited RCGA rules officials, some attitudes have changed regarding rules, handicap, etc. Good for all of you for taking the time to volunteer (I think) and help out with tournaments and rules education.

Since you are referring to me, firstly no I don't feel attacked. I think in your comment you seem to give those of us who have achieved accreditation the nod for doing so and helping with rules education which is indeed the goal.

When I first started playing I was lax with the rules. Heck I did not know them all and found them confusing like many people do. All sports have a learning cuve. Even after starting this site I was, and in some ways I still am, a proponent for 2 levels of rules in golf. That's for another thread.

As my golf game developed I gradually tightened the rules as I applied them to my game. I have been playng "by the book" for several years now. The only thing that has really changed since obtaining my accreditation is my desire to help educate others on the rules to this great game.

In no way do I intend to come off as elitist. In my case I found that taking the odd penalty here and there in a round is not a big deal and often the rules can help you out if you get to know them.

In that light perhaps we need to put forth more scenarios where the ruling benifits the player. I'll see what I can find.

[sensfan63]

I agree with jvincent that you are being a little harsh in your first statement. I know the individuals of which you speak and their opinions on the rules have not changed since getting their accreditations.

I would also like to know which course you are playing that has hazardous rocks in the middle of the fairway -- so I won't play there ever, period. I fail to see how there can be such hazardous conditions to put yourself in "harm's way" in the middle of the fairway.

Why is there a difference between the "gunch" as you call it and the fairway? What if you hit into a divot? Is it not a potentially dangerous situation of which you speak? Why should you be "allowed" to move it then and not in the "gunch"?

Are these players cheating??? Yes. Should they be banned. No, however they better dammed well play by the rules, especially if they are in my group.

FWIW I thought speed limits were recommendations not rules....

My understanding of the original post was that the ball was lying in an area where there shouldn't be a rock, but there is (ie. in the middle of the fwy).

[BC MIST]

Well, I haven't kept a handicap in years and I play competitively all the time. You can tell me that I'm "playing golf" and am not "a golfer", but i don't care, and many others don't either.

Contrarians sometimes make for interesting discussion and being able to look at a situation from an opposite point of view can be enlightening if one's mind is open. However, things get bogged down when one deliberately manipulates another's words to convey a meaning other than what was intended or to cover up behaviours contrary to what is generally accepted.

Since it was my statement distinguishing between golfers and people who play golf, perhaps you should go back and reread what I said. The difference has to do with etiquette and attitude, not ability, scores, where one plays or anything else. It has to do with how one conducts oneself while playing golf and how one considers others on the course. There is no elitism or arrogance here, just a healthy willingness to do what is right for all.

Learning the rules of golf, playing by them on the course and helping others learn them is commendable. Moving your ball from a bad lie and not counting the penalty is cheating. Those who cheat are people who play golf. Golfers play by the rules, as they know them. The fact that you don't keep a handicap does not make you a person who plays golf. While you do play competitively it is obvious that in doing so, you never give or take strokes, otherwise you would be a person who plays golf.

There has been a significant increase in interest in learning the rules of golf on this forum, not only by those of us who have become certified in some way, but also by those who just want to learn and to contribute. Themes and interests have changed over time and from these changes, many have likely learned. Is this not a good thing?

BTW: Almost 50 years ago I was taught by my father to count every stroke. Good, bad or indifferent, nothing has changed.

[Skiddlydidly]

The question really being asked in this thread is "Do you play by the rules or not?" Fair enough, however, nobody needs to justify playing by the rules or not doing so.

In my opinion, those who don't play by the rules are not cheating, unless they keep a handicap, or compete in tournaments (or claim to shoot scores which don't include the proper penalties). They're just not playing golf is all. Who cares?

Likewise, those who play by the rules and take penalties aren't taking the game too seriously. They're just playing golf.

[AAA]

Proper procedure dictates you walk 250 yards back to the tee box and hit another one.

Proper procedure (and the rule) says you should take a provisional. Think ahead.

[AAA]

..now, it could very well be that this was because there wasn't a dedicated forum for "Rules" and the topic never came up as much. But there has to be a reason that in the last four months, "Rules" has been stressed an unusual amount.

Is it surprising that Rules have come up in this forum ? It is after all called 'Rules Discussion'
I've been a member for 3 years and oddly 90+% of the topics are about rules.

But it also seems odd for people to say they don't play by the rules but then post in the rules forum.

[mpare]

Would I be correct in assuming that since you have not kept a handicap for years and still play competitively, that you play at scratch? If not, then how to you calculate your "handicap"?

Well, I haven't kept a handicap in years and I play competitively all the time. You can tell me that I'm "playing golf" and am not "a golfer", but i don't care, and many others don't either. ...

[Kiwi]

Interesting how a relatively simple question can raise such emotion in some people. There are many issues raised but of them all I take exception to the word "cheat" being used for someone who does not play golf by the rules. Just to confirm my belief that this word was improperly, or perhaps mistakenly used I consulted a dictionary. I have always felt that to cheat someone was trying to obtain something that they were not entitled to by deceipt or falsehood. Certainly those that "fudge" their scores to gain some advantage for themselves are cheaters. I do not accept that when I move a ball out of a divot or off a rock (unseen from 250 yards away) that I am cheating. All my rounds are practice and all I am trying to do is get better. I have never, nor do I ever intend to bet on a game, hole or shot, compete for a prize or use my score, or knowledge to try to make myself appear better than my fellow man. I play golf. I would hope those who say they intend to promote the game, civility and honour should choose their words more carefully.

[GarthM]

Interesting how a relatively simple question can raise such emotion in some people. There are many issues raised but of them all I take exception to the word "cheat" being used for someone who does not play golf by the rules. Just to confirm my belief that this word was improperly, or perhaps mistakenly used I consulted a dictionary. I have always felt that to cheat someone was trying to obtain something that they were not entitled to by deceipt or falsehood. Certainly those that "fudge" their scores to gain some advantage for themselves are cheaters. I do not accept that when I move a ball out of a divot or off a rock (unseen from 250 yards away) that I am cheating. All my rounds are practice and all I am trying to do is get better. I have never, nor do I ever intend to bet on a game, hole or shot, compete for a prize or use my score, or knowledge to try to make myself appear better than my fellow man. I play golf. I would hope those who say they intend to promote the game, civility and honour should choose their words more carefully.

Like many words cheat has several definitions and interpretations depending on it's usage. One very accepted definition being:

Cheat: verb, intransitive: to violate rules or regulations.

Typically used to indicate the gaining of an advantage of some sort.

One of the fundamental rules of golf is "play the ball as it lies". If you move your ball out of a divot, you are violating a rule, plain and simple. Do you move your ball out of a bunker because you don't like it? Take a mulligan because you duffed a tee shot? Where do you draw the line if you are truly trying to improve as you say you are? How do you know if you are improving if you don't accurately track your score by counting all your strokes/penalties?

Why is it that so many people feel they can pick and choose the rules that they wish to play by in golf? It does not happen in any other game I have ever played to the degree it does in golf. Truly amazing, but I digress, hopefully having chosen my words carefully.

[Kiwi]

Cheat: verb, intransitive: to violate rules or regulations.

Typically used to indicate the gaining of an advantage of some sort.

Thanks, I think you made my point for me. What advantage am I gaining by taking my ball out of a divot or lifting it off of that unseen rock in the middle of the fairway to avoid damaging my club? I guess you could say that I am "cheating" myself, but that is a long debate. And as far as practicing, IMHO I don't think that practicing ALL possible combinations at the outset is the best way to improve. Never been to a real lesson, but I don't think they put you in the sand trap until you have achieved some level of competency on more basic shots. When I can gain consistency on some basic shots then I will move along. I rarely move the ball, but when I do I don't call it cheating. Now that I have been educated by many in the Forum I now know that most of the time I can move it "legally" and to my advantage. How about the beginners, mosty women, that I have seen that are urged to tee their ball up in the fairway rather than polo it along the ground. Would you call them cheaters? Can I watch???
Perhaps the majority of the forum members are scratch/low handicap golfers, but I'd bet that most people that "play at" golf do it for enjoyment not to beat someone or prove themselves but just for the sheer enjoyment of the game. The happiest people I have ever met on a golf course are those that refuse to carry a score card and get caught up in all the hype. Obey the rules in competition, know the rules, but don't let them rule you. There must still be some room for common sense. Don't try to equate a golf rule to a law, not even close.

[justsomeguy]

Perhaps the majority of the forum members are scratch/low handicap golfers, but I'd bet that most people that "play at" golf do it for enjoyment not to beat someone or prove themselves but just for the sheer enjoyment of the game. The happiest people I have ever met on a golf course are those that refuse to carry a score card and get caught up in all the hype. Obey the rules in competition, know the rules, but don't let them rule you. There must still be some room for common sense. Don't try to equate a golf rule to a law, not even close.

If you're not keeping score, then there really is no issue here at all.

If you're worried about your safety or about damaging your clubs, then clearly you should move the ball. On this point there really is no debate at all. The real question is whether or not you take the penalty stroke. That is what the real debate is all about in this thread.

If someone is truly playing "just for the sheer enjoyment of the game", then what do they care about penalty strokes? If they're not keeping score, then the rules really don't matter at all. Play as you see fit and have fun.

Ahhh, but it seems that the score really does matter to most golfers. The "sheer enjoyment" comes from attaining the lowest score possible, and playing by the rules can be an impediment to that goal. Many golfers take a great deal of pride in "breaking __" or in scoring their personal best - and some of these pesky rules just seem to get in the way!

It certainly doesn't matter to me how others choose to play the game. Have fun any way you want out there. But if people are going to make up their own rules, then they should realize that in reality they're making up their own scores too. The numbers they add up at the end are only meaningful in comparison to those who play by the same rules that they do - which often means they are not meaningful to anybody else at all.

I think if the scores count, then the rules count. You can't have one without the other.

[sensfan63]

Contrarians sometimes make for interesting discussion and being able to look at a situation from an opposite point of view can be enlightening if one's mind is open. However, things get bogged down when one deliberately manipulates another's words to convey a meaning other than what was intended or to cover up behaviours contrary to what is generally accepted.

Since it was my statement distinguishing between golfers and people who play golf, perhaps you should go back and reread what I said. The difference has to do with etiquette and attitude, not ability, scores, where one plays or anything else. It has to do with how one conducts oneself while playing golf and how one considers others on the course. There is no elitism or arrogance here, just a healthy willingness to do what is right for all.

Learning the rules of golf, playing by them on the course and helping others learn them is commendable. Moving your ball from a bad lie and not counting the penalty is cheating. Those who cheat are people who play golf. Golfers play by the rules, as they know them. The fact that you don't keep a handicap does not make you a person who plays golf. While you do play competitively it is obvious that in doing so, you never give or take strokes, otherwise you would be a person who plays golf.

There has been a significant increase in interest in learning the rules of golf on this forum, not only by those of us who have become certified in some way, but also by those who just want to learn and to contribute. Themes and interests have changed over time and from these changes, many have likely learned. Is this not a good thing?

BTW: Almost 50 years ago I was taught by my father to count every stroke. Good, bad or indifferent, nothing has changed.

Went on a sabbatical and now I have plenty of catching up to do...

In the first part, you said I was taking your past comments of context; then, in the end, you now conclude the golfers in question are just "playing golf." I am now officially confused.
Of course knowing the rules, and new golfers learning the rules, is a good thing. I simply question the emphasis that some place on playing by the rules 24/7, and if you don't, you are a bad person. (insert sarcasm here...)
Here is what I do when I give strokes. The group stands on the first tee, all players go over our past rounds in our heads, and then we start the negotiations...sometimes 2/side, sometimes 4/side, sometimes we even get into half shots on certain holes. You should try it sometime, it's actually quite an entertaining process.

[sensfan63]

Is it surprising that Rules have come up in this forum ? It is after all called 'Rules Discussion'
I've been a member for 3 years and oddly 90+% of the topics are about rules.

But it also seems odd for people to say they don't play by the rules but then post in the rules forum.

I do play by the rules...when I'm in a tournament and the score actually counts.

[sensfan63]

Would I be correct in assuming that since you have not kept a handicap for years and still play competitively, that you play at scratch? If not, then how to you calculate your "handicap"?

Well, the guys I play with don't keep a handicap either (to my knowledge, but they do play tournaments. Maybe they do have handicaps ) so we just come to an agreement on how many shots are given. It's not hard. We play together all the time so it's a pretty standard game that stays the same all the time. We all know how good we are, we've all played together a lot. Nobody is cheating anybody.
There is one guy that I used to give 3 shots/nine, now I give him 4/nine. He's gotten a little shorter over the last few years, his game has suffered, so we adjusted. Pretty simple IMO.

[BC MIST]

If you're not keeping score, then there really is no issue here at all.

Ahhh, but it seems that the score really does matter to most golfers. The "sheer enjoyment" comes from attaining the lowest score possible, and playing by the rules can be an impediment to that goal. Many golfers take a great deal of pride in "breaking __" or in scoring their personal best - and some of these pesky rules just seem to get in the way!

It certainly doesn't matter to me how others choose to play the game. Have fun any way you want out there. But if people are going to make up their own rules, then they should realize that in reality they're making up their own scores too. The numbers they add up at the end are only meaningful in comparison to those who play by the same rules that they do - which often means they are not meaningful to anybody else at all.

I think if the scores count, then the rules count. You can't have one without the other.

Excellent post.

[jvincent]

Interestingly enough, this exact situation came up in today's match between Pinshark and mjf.

Pinshark's ball was on the right edge of the cart path with dense forest immediately to the the right of the ball so he couldn't take relief on that side.

He debated taking an unplayable from the lie but he wasn't sure if the drop would end up bouncing off the cart path and back into the forest or not. He ended up playing it off the path.

In hindsight he probably should have measured two clublengths to see where his drop would have been before proceeding. I think it would have placed him on the other side of the path and even with the penalty I think he would have been better off.

I was trying to send him vibes to do that since I couldn't give him any advice.

[AAA]

You may tell him his options under the rules as long as you don't tell him which option to take.
You can also ask him if he would like to know his options.

[jvincent]

Yes, we did in fact have the discussion about his options because he wanted to be sure of what they were.