Provisional Ball(s)

[BC MIST]

From the Leith Society website, a situation that resulted in varying opinions about what the correct procedure was.

Donna hit her second shot towards the deep rough and trees, dropped a ball and said, "This is a provisional." Before she made a stroke at the provisional ball a forecaddie said, "Here is a ball." Donna picked up her provisional ball, went forward and discovered that the found ball was not hers.

Without saying anything she dropped a ball and once again, the forecaddie said, "Here is another ball." Leaving the dropped she walked over to where the second found ball was.

What is the ruling if:
1. The second ball found was her original ball.
2. The second ball found was NOT her original ball.

[Skiddlydidly]

1. If it's her original, she plays it. No problem.

2. If it's not her original, she'll have to declare a provisional and drop again (she didn't say anything when she dropped a second time).

?

[g8r]

According to our previous discussions the ball she dropped is the ball in play since she didnt specifically declare THAT DROP as a provisional.

Even though she dropped a ball and called it a provisional, it was never the ball in play so it does not count. Once she picked it up, you can't assume that the next ball dropped is a provisional.

So, shes hitting 3, even if she finds her ball, shes SOL.

[Big Johnny69]

From the Leith Society website, a situation that resulted in varying opinions about what the correct procedure was.

Donna hit her second shot towards the deep rough and trees, dropped a ball and said, "This is a provisional." Before she made a stroke at the provisional ball a forecaddie said, "Here is a ball." Donna picked up her provisional ball, went forward and discovered that the found ball was not hers.

Without saying anything she dropped a ball and once again, the forecaddie said, "Here is another ball." Leaving the dropped she walked over to where the second found ball was.

What is the ruling if:
1. The second ball found was her original ball.
2. The second ball found was NOT her original ball.

1) Was the second ball found within the 5 minutes allotted to search for a lost ball?
2) I'd have to double check, but do you only have to declare a provisional before you actually hit, or before you drop it?

[Skiddlydidly]

According to our previous discussions the ball she dropped is the ball in play since she didnt specifically declare THAT DROP as a provisional.

Even though she dropped a ball and called it a provisional, it was never the ball in play so it does not count. Once she picked it up, you can't assume that the next ball dropped is a provisional.

So, shes hitting 3, even if she finds her ball, shes SOL.

So, just dropping a ball puts it in play? I thought it was only in play once you hit it.

[sillywilly]

Because it is deep rough and trees... I assume her drop up there isn't legal because there is no mention of stakes... IF she plays that ball she loses the hole or is DQ... If she finds her can she can play it... (i think)

[Big Johnny69]

http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...leFrame27.html


It doesn't say that once the ball is dropped that is the ball in play. It merely states, that until you play the provisional at or beyond the point of where the original is lost you can still abandon and play the original. But it must be declared a provisional before you make a stroke.

[BC MIST]

1) Was the second ball found within the 5 minutes allotted to search for a lost ball?
2) I'd have to double check, but do you only have to declare a provisional before you actually hit, or before you drop it?

1. Yes and that fact is important.

2. What you have written above is correct.

[Big Johnny69]

1. Yes and that fact is important.

2. What you have written above is correct.

OK, so I'd say:

1) For this scenario, she is good to play her third shot from where her original ball lies.

2) She'll have to go back, declare a provisional and play under a stroke and distance penalty.


And so if I'm understanding this, as long as you drop a ball properly (from shoulder height), you don't have to delcare it a provisional until before you hit it?

[1dash1]

So, just dropping a ball puts it in play? I thought it was only in play once you hit it.

See Rule 20-4:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le20.html#20-4

[1dash1]

And so if I'm understanding this, as long as you drop a ball properly (from shoulder height), you don't have to delcare it a provisional until before you hit it?

Geoff:

I'm not sure where you drew such a conclusion. And I'm not sure if it holds true within the context of the current discussion.

However, your statement is generally true - when proceeding under Rule 27-2, the announcement of the Provisional Ball must be done prior to hitting it.

This is one of the few instances where I do not know how players are supposed to divine the interpretation from the wording of the rule. All I can tell you is that this is the position that both the R&A and USGA have asserted.

[Big Johnny69]

What I'm basically asking is:

- you make a stroke and your ball travels to a portion of the course where there is a good chance you won't find it
- you grab another ball from your bag and drop it as close to the spot from where the last stroke was made (from what I've seen the proper way to drop a ball is from shoulder height)
- and this is where I'd like clarification: you perhaps think about club selection for a bit, grab a quick drink of water, wipe your hands down and then approach your ball
- you now declare the ball you dropped a provisional, address it and then make your stroke


Is this permitted? From what I understood in reading some rules yesterday, it doesn't matter when you declare your provisional as long as you declare it a provisional before you make a stroke. So I just want to know, if I wanted to, I could actually drop the ball before declaring it a provisional. For instance, on a tee, if you hit one OB, I've seen many a player re-tee before declaring the ball a provisional, so I'd assume it's the same anywhere else on the course.

[g8r]

A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed.

But on the tee box, its not in play until it is hit, right? Whereas once in play the definition says that once it is dropped or placed, it is a ball in play.

Also rule 20-5 talks about "dropping a ball" through the green, "placing a ball" on the green, but "playing a ball" from the teeing ground.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le20.html#20-5

The fact that a ball was dropped without declaring it a provisional, according to the strict reading of the definition above, puts it in play regardless of finding the original ball.

[Big Johnny69]

But on the tee box, its not in play until it is hit, right? Whereas once in play the definition says that once it is dropped or placed, it is a ball in play.

Also rule 20-5 talks about "dropping a ball" through the green, "placing a ball" on the green, but "playing a ball" from the teeing ground.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le20.html#20-5

The fact that a ball was dropped without declaring it a provisional, according to the strict reading of the definition above, puts it in play regardless of finding the original ball.

But this isn't a substituted ball, it's a possible provisional. A provisional is not in play until you can't find your original.

[1dash1]

What I'm basically asking is:

- you make a stroke and your ball travels to a portion of the course where there is a good chance you won't find it
- you grab another ball from your bag and drop it as close to the spot from where the last stroke was made (from what I've seen the proper way to drop a ball is from shoulder height)
- and this is where I'd like clarification: you perhaps think about club selection for a bit, grab a quick drink of water, wipe your hands down and then approach your ball
- you now declare the ball you dropped a provisional, address it and then make your stroke


Is this permitted?

Geoff:

YES!

The position of the ruling bodies is that the rule MAY be satisfied after dropping the ball. The announcement of a Provisional Ball must be done prior to hitting it.

Note: I say "MAY" because the player must be proceeding under the rule for the rule to apply. If he was proceeding under some other rule, then changed his mind, announcing "Provisional!" does not change the fact that the ball was originally dropped and in play under some other rule. Hence, my comment about avoiding controversy ... without an announcement there will always be some doubt as to the player's intent at the time of the drop. Besides, there are many players and not a few Committees that are unaware of the ruling bodies' interpretation.

The prudent player would avoid controversy by declaring the Provisional prior to dropping it.

[1dash1]

But on the tee box, its not in play until it is hit, right? Whereas once in play the definition says that once it is dropped or placed, it is a ball in play.

Also rule 20-5 talks about "dropping a ball" through the green, "placing a ball" on the green, but "playing a ball" from the teeing ground.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le20.html#20-5

The fact that a ball was dropped without declaring it a provisional, according to the strict reading of the definition above, puts it in play regardless of finding the original ball.

G8r:

Correct. The dropped ball is in play.

However, according to the ruling bodies when queried, the ball has not been played in this situation until it has been hit. Trey Holland, for head of the USGA Rules Committee has been quoted as saying so. Both the USGA and the R&A put out publications on how to conduct a competition, both documents infer that the announcement may take place after the player has dropped the ball. It is common knowledge amongst the rules officials that I know.

And my previous comments regarding how players are supposed to diviine this information still stands.

[Big Johnny69]

Geoff:

YES!

While I would encourage players to declare the Provisional before dropping the ball to avoid controversy, the position of the ruling bodies the rule MAY be satisfied after dropping the ball. Announcing the Provisional Ball must be done prior to playing (i.e., hitting) it.

Note: I say "MAY" because the player must be proceeding under the rule for the rule to apply. If he was proceeding under some other rule, then changed his mind, announcing "Provisional!" does not change the fact that the ball was originally dropped and in play under some other rule. Hence, my comment about avoiding controversy ... without an announcement there will always be some doubt as to the player's intent at the time of the drop. Besides, there are many players and not a few Committees that are unaware of the ruling bodies' interpretation.

The prudent player would avoid controversy by declaring the Provisional prior to dropping it.

Thanks. My only thought process for this would be to perhaps drop the ball to mark the spot where the player last played. Head up to search for his ball, if he so pleases, if not found, return and announce the provisional and the make his stroke. Or perhaps, drop, announce the provisional and then go look for the possibly lost ball.

I know it really doesn't make any sense to not declare it before dropping it, but stranger things have been known to happen on the golf course and it's nice to know what your actual options are in regards to the rules. I always announce before I drop, but in case I ever forget, it's good to know I can still declare my provisional and not be penalized.

[1dash1]

Thanks. My only thought process for this would be to perhaps drop the ball to mark the spot where the player last played.

A ball dropped to mark a spot is an item used to mark the spot. It is not in play. If the player subsequently hit it, it would be a wrong ball.

Head up to search for his ball, if he so pleases, if not found, return and announce the provisional and the make his stroke.

Going forward to search nullifies the player's option under Rule 27-2.

Or perhaps, drop, announce the provisional and then go look for the possibly lost ball.

And hit the Provisional Ball prior to searching for the original.

[1dash1]

BC Mist:

Sorry for the threadjacking.

I'll post a separate discussion thread the next time.

[Big Johnny69]

A ball dropped to mark a spot is an item used to mark the spot. It is not in play. If the player subsequently hit it, it would be a wrong ball.




Going forward to search nullifies the player's option under Rule 27-2.




And hit the Provisional Ball prior to searching for the original.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[g8r]

G8r:

Correct. The dropped ball is in play.

However, according to the ruling bodies when queried, the ball has not been played in this situation until it has been hit. Trey Holland, for head of the USGA Rules Committee has been quoted as saying so. Both the USGA and the R&A put out publications on how to conduct a competition, both documents infer that the announcement may take place after the player has dropped the ball. It is common knowledge amongst the rules officials that I know.

And my previous comments regarding how players are supposed to diviine this information still stands.

This is what is somewhat frustrating about some of these rules discussions and decisions.

In this case you do not follow the rules to a "tee" and get away with it, but in a previous discussion (about provisionals), if you didnt clearly announce "this is a provisional ball" you would be penalized, even though the intent was there. To be clear, I agree with the interpretation but in the past, we've all been told that the rules are written and very clear, so, this is a prime example of interpreting a rule in a way other than it is written.

[BC MIST]

BC Mist:

Sorry for the threadjacking.

I'll post a separate discussion thread the next time.

Not at all. Your expertise and experience is superior to most if not all of us and from your explanations, we all learn. For those interested, the intent is to provide a rules situation that is challenging and thought provoking and this one certainly has been that. There are others on the way, too.

[BC MIST]

The following represents some of the pertinent questions asked and answers given by the R&A RO's regarding this situation. Golf sure can be a complicated game, sometimes.

#1 I think that under 20-4, it is a ball put into play provisionally but not yet a PB until played.
Is this correct?
After dropping under R 27-2a, the status of the PB as provisionally in play does not change when a stroke is made at the PB

#2 If the player before making a stroke at the ball put into play provisionally, walks forward to identify a found ball that may be his, what is the status of the dropped ball?
(a) Does it remain a ball which may be played as a PB or
yes, until the OB is found or in case of R 27-2b, walking away from the PB in play does not change the PB status nor does it render R 27-2a inapplicable

(b) Does its status change from a ball dropped under 27-2a to that of a ball dropped under 27-1 or
no, because R 27-1 requires the intent to proceed under S&D

(c) Does it become an abandoned ball, because it was dropped under a Rule (27-2a) which is no longer an applicable Rule?
no, because R 27-2a was correctly invoked as the applicable Rule before the player went forward and the PB remains in play provisionally until..(see a))

If the player lifts the ball before going forward:
(a) Has he lifted a PB or, because he has no intention of now playing a PB, simply lifted a ball he has abandoned?
No authority to lift PB provisionally in play, as long as OB is still being searched for

(b) Should the original ball become a lost ball, a ball must be dropped under 20-5b. Does it have to be the same ball that was originally dropped and lifted?
If the OB is lost, the PB becomes the BiP under R 27-2b. THE lifted ball must be replaced with 1 PS, no substitution and no dropping allowed

(c) Will the player now be playing 4 (tee shot + second shot + penalty under 27-1c) or 5 (tee shot + second shot + penalty under 18-2a + penalty under 27-1c)?
He/she will be playing 5 including 1 PS under R 18-2a and 1 PS under R 27-2b