Tree In a Hazard

[Bouche]

XX is on the tee on #2 at Camelot and hits his ball down the left side of the hole. His ball hits a tree that is in the hazard (also a creek beside the tree that runs all the way down the hole). XX searches for his ball and he cant find it. Can he assume the ball is either in the thick bluegrass within the hazard or in the creek?? Or is the ball lost and he has to go back to the tee?

Left of the hazard there is fescue and right of the hazard is rough and fairway. He didn't see where his ball went bvut he knows that it hit the tree located in the hazard.

[Kilroy]

You posted this in the Hypothetical Rulings section so I take it you are challenging the group and not looking for a ruling from an official. Is that correct?

[Bouche]

Well I just want to know the answer but its up for discussion

[Kilroy]

Moving to Ruling Wanted then.

[jvincent]

This is going to come down to the "virtually certain" discussion.

I.e. if you are "virtually certain" the ball is in the hazard then you can treat it that way. If you are not, then you have to assume it is lost.

Now let the "virtually certain" argument begin.

[BC MIST]

Have been in that hazard myself so I know the area well. Fortunately it was an RCGA official who saw the ball go in and gave me the appropriate ruling.

Question: Was the ball seen dropping into the hazard after it hit the tree? If "Yes," then it is "KNOWN" and the ruling is obvious.

If not, is it possible that the ball deflected and ended up in the fescue or rough outside the hazard? If the answer is 99%, "No," then the ball is in the hazard. Anything less and the ball is lost.

It must be "known," 100%, or "virtually certain," 99%, that it is in the hazard, before it can be considered lost in the hazard. Again, these two numbers came from the instructors of our recent Level 3 rules seminar.

[Bouche]

OK. but lets say you look all around in the fescue to the left and it is clear that its not in the rough on the right. Its safe to say the ball likely hit the tree and stayed in the hazard. Your group members are convinced that the ball is in the hazard so you take the drop and play on....is that ok?

I have just seen this happen so many times on that hole thats why I ask

[BC MIST]

OK. but lets say you look all around in the fescue to the left and it is clear that its not in the rough on the right. Its safe to say the ball likely hit the tree and stayed in the hazard. Your group members are convinced that the ball is in the hazard so you take the drop and play on....is that ok?

I have just seen this happen so many times on that hole thats why I ask

Does "likely" mean virtually certain?
Was the ball seen dropping into the hazard by you or your group members?
Could the ball have stayed up in the tree?
Could it be in the rough/fescue?

It seems clear from what you have written that you are not sure where the ball is plus the fact that you actually looked in the fescue, outside the hazard, shows that you are not virtually certain that the ball is in it.

[LobWedge]

Having never played Camelot, and going only by what I can see on Google Earth, that tree (about 215 yards from the back tee) should not be included as part of that hazard. From what I can extrapolate, the base of the tree lies about 5 yards from the left edge of the creek. Even the right-most branches barely seem to cover the edge of the creek.

If I'm refering to the wrong tree, please let me know.

[BC MIST]

...that tree (about 215 yards from the back tee) should not be included as part of that hazard. From what I can extrapolate, the base of the tree lies about 5 yards from the left edge of the creek. Even the right-most branches barely seem to cover the edge of the creek.

Not sure what you mean by the above. As the margin of a water hazard extends vertically upward, all or most of this particular tree is in the hazard. Why then, should the tree not be included as part of the hazard?

[LobWedge]

Not sure what you mean by the above. As the margin of a water hazard extends vertically upward, all or most of this particular tree is in the hazard. Why then, should the tree not be included as part of the hazard?

Just looking at the width of the actual water course from above. Without knowing the lay of the land, It would appear that the tree lies completely outside of what the hazard should be.

Just an observation. Another one of those vagaries of establishing the boundaries of a hazard based on where water may or may not flow.

[Bouche]

The tree is in the hazard as the hazard extends into the think bluegrass around the creek. From the tips about 26o away

[leftylucas]

I agree with BCmist, if from 260 yds you see or hear the ball hit the tree then you really cannot be virtually certain of anything except that the ball hit the tree. I say re-load Tex, tell your fellow golfers you're hitting a provisoinal and hope you find your ball in the fescue or hazard. I think the ball is "likely" in the hazard but is very different from virtually certain. For expamle, 14th hole at Les Vieux Moulins, You are 175 yds away from the green and fire your ball in the greens direction and there is nothing but water between you and the green. If you duff your shot and even if your ball disappears slightly behind the trees and you now your ball was way short, you can be virtually certain it is in the hazard becuase there is nothing else there. In your case, if one does not see the ball fall in the hazard or outside of it then nothing is certain, especially 260yds away. Too many possibilities to be certain of any of them.

I had a similar situation during my match play on Sunday, a drive went through the fairway on the fly about 260yds but we could not tell where for certain it was but it seemd wide open with a few trees and we were pretty sure it could be found. The player still hit a provisional and lucky he did because the ball actually flew the fairway and plugged in a very small marked hazard. Had we not found it and without a provisional he would have been back at the tee.

[Bouche]

Thanks guys. I just wanted to clarify because I dont know how many times this has happened on that hole and generally speeking 95% of the members play it as lost in the hazard.

[leftylucas]

What, members taking advantage of the rules, unheard of!!