Technical Question...

[golfdoc]

This is a question for those technical people out there.

I had a 975D driver (9.5*) with the Graffalloy UltraLite Shaft Stiff shaft. I used to hit line drives with it but kept it in the fairway.

I switched to a Adams 363GT (9*) with their stock Stiff shaft and now hit a very high ball with much more distance.

The bend point in the Adams is much higher and is not as stiff a shaft.

I am now switching to a Vulcan Golf driver. I have hit them and love them but it is decision time.

8* with a high kick point shaft or
9* with a mid kick point shaft or
10* with a low kick point shaft

I don't hit a high ball to begin with...

[Andru]

Before you do anything do a session next spring with a launch monitor it will take ALL of the guess work out in one session. If you're willing to drive I can get you the number of a place in Toronto.

Launch Angle.
Ball Spin Rate.
Ball speed.

I got fitted on a launch monitor this fall in Toronto. Turns out I needed less loft. I had 10.5 and moved to 9.5

At 10.5 16 degree lanuch angle, 4200 RPM back spin. 148 MPH ball speed.

New Driver. 13-14 degrees Launch , 2900 RPM, 159-162 MPH ball speed.

Before you buy your next driver get fitted on a launch monitor it's worth it.

[Chieflongtee]

Golfquip is offering this service for $35.
www.golfquip.com

[natgolfer]

I got fitted on a launch monitor this fall in Toronto. Turns out I needed less loft. I had 10.5 and moved to 9.5 At 10.5 16 degree lanuch angle, 4200 RPM back spin. 148 MPH ball speed. New Driver. 13-14 degrees Launch , 2900 RPM, 159-162 MPH ball speed. Before you buy your next driver get fitted on a launch monitor it's worth it.

Armed with the knowledge that the computer has told you that you need 9.5 degrees of loft, 13-14 degrees Launch , 2900 RPM,, what do you do? Do you go to CB's and ask for a driver that has those specs? Do you have a competent clubmaker, like Andre and myself, build you a driver to those specs? With a basic knowledge of clubhead and shaft construction, you become very quickly aware that this is impossible, unless you go to Titleist, for example, use their launch monitor and then have them build you a club that exactly matches the numbers the computer says you should have.

Now, not all 9.5 degree drivers are created equal. In some cases they are several degrees off the number listed on the head, and the construction of the shaft can alter the EFFECTIVE loft of the clubhead, by a wide margin. Raising or lowering the centre of gravity in a head drastically alters the EFFECTIVE launch angle of the ball, even though the listed loft is 9.5 degrees. How do you know that the listed loft is what it says? From my experience, I would wager that up to 50% of the drivers produced, the listed loft is inaccurate. Ping lowered the loft on its irons so that a 6 iron was really a 5 iron and said, "See how much our clubs go farther than yours." But, at one time they refused to tell us what loft was on each of their clubs. There is a line of drivers produced by Dynacraft where the actual loft is 2+ degrees higher than what is listed, and they admit to doing this. It's a male "ego" thing. No-one wants to hit a 12* driver. That's a ladies club. So, they lie about the loft. Recent technical information indicates that higher loft on the driver is better for most players and will yeild more carry. This is true if you can increase the launch angle and reduce the spin rate at the same time, but don't forget the role of roll, in overall distance.

Case in Point: I had two driver heads, one, an SMT Nemesis, 8*, and the other, an SMT 455 Deep Bore 8*. Logically, both should have the same trajectory. Not even close. Into each I installed SK Fibre Pure Energy "S" shafts. The trajectory of the Nemesis was, say 6 out of 10, a little too high for me, while the 455 was 8 out of 10, obviously unacceptable in trajectory. But, with soggy fairways and no wind, the 455 was perhaps 5 to 10 yards longer. However, with firmer fairways the Nemesis was much longer, 15 to 20 yards, while on windy days the 455 was useless into the wind and with a cross wind.

What to do? Sold the 455 to gbower, who hits the ball lower than I do and made him happy because he has picked a bag load of yards over his Nike driver and my Nemesis, which he was borrowing so often that he was wearing out the grip. . Into my slightly too high trajectory Nemesis, I put an SK Fiber Lite Revolution "S". Logic now says that the PE "S" and the LR "S" should yeild the same trajectory. Again, not even close. The Lite Revolution lowered the trajectory approximately 15% to 20%, say 4.5 or 5 on my scale, which was perfect for me to get the best combination of carry and roll that yeilded my maximum distance.

So, why did this happen? Some would say that because the Lite Revolutiuon has a higher kick point, the trajectory goes down. It's important to know that the difference between a high kick point shaft and a low kick point one is an inch or 2, and kick point is a "MINOR" factor in determining trajectory. (from: "Practical Clubfitting Program," Tom Wishon). The reason the ball goes lower is because the tip of the shaft is thicker, therefore stiffer, and that lowers the flight the most. But also, if you increase the length of the shaft you also increase the trajectory of the ball. And so on it goes.

Even though you have important launch monitor specs, unless you can hit a gazillion drivers outside or perhaps even on a launch monitor, it is very difficult to get a driver that is ideal for you. Who in the Ottawa area has dozens of head shaft combinations for you to try?

BTW: To prove that not all shafts are created equal either, below is listed a number of STIFF, "S" shafts, and their respective frequencies. If about 10 cpm represent a one flex difference between shafts, you will soon realize that it is important to know something about shafts before you spend $400 to $700 on a new driver.
Graffaloy Power Lite "S" -235 cpm
True Temper Rocket Graphite "S" - 246 cpm
Aldila One Mid Launch "S" - 255 cpm
Graffaloy Blue "S" - 261 cpm
Graffaloy Proforce IT "S" - 278 cpm
True Temper EI 70 Tour "S" - 286 cpm
The assumed length for each of the above is 45 inches. So when a sales person says that you need a STIFF shaft, ask a few questions.

[Andru]

Well. I was trying to avoid the long post So I left out the details.

I use to have a cleveland 330 with a Graffaloy Prolite-35 Stiff.

I borrowed 4 drivers from a store. And brought them with me. Took one hour to test all of them. As to why one flew higher than the other I really don't care. The Taylor Made R580 with a 9.5 Degree Head and the MAS 60 Stiff Shaft gave me the best Launch, Ball Speed. And spin rates. They were almost Ideal for me. I've gained 20 yards with my driver since changing. The cleveland was launching the ball too high. With too much backspin. That was obvious. Could I have changed the shaft and accomplished the same thing maybe. I don't really care at this point. I have a driver that maximizes my talent.

Now. Your concern is this. How does a person transfer the knowledge they gain from the launch monitor fitting to the club head they want.

Well first, I would check out the place that offers the fitting to see if they carry the golf components you want that would make it easy sample their drivers. and pick a combination.

Second. There are lot's of places in Ottawa with fitting carts. The Marshes for one has a Taylor Made and Callaway Hitting cart with various driver models. They just don't have the launch monitor. The place I went to has a launch monitor and they sell custom components. They also have several models to demo. I brought my own clubs in this case.

I also added a disclaimer. You may have to drive to Toronto. For me it's not a big deal I go all the time. If it's a big problem then don't go. Try to find a place in Montreal.

It was just a recommendation. Golfdoc listed three models. I assumed he/she had access the the models he/she mentioned. He/She claimed to have hit them. Why not grab the 3. Make a trip. Get tested on a launch monitor and make the choice simple.

Worse case if you can't do the previous, tt's nice to have a reference. After hitting a few and getting the numbers you can calibrate yourself to know what a good launch angle looks like. It's like hitting balls on a range with yardage markers.

If you hit five or six 7 irons and the ball lands at the 150 yard stick. Ok that's what a pure 7 iron feels, looks, smells like. Once you get the right look and feel of the ball flight off your driver. You can go to a regular club fitter armed with this knowledge and hit drivers. Knowing what your perfect shot looks and feels like. You can demo drivers and find one that fits you. It's better than guessing that's for sure.

[Chieflongtee]

Andru. Can I ask you the name of the place in Toronto? Custom Club Shop? Golfsmith?
I am curious that's all. I love these kinds of posts and I'd like to throw in my 2 cents worth.
All shafts are not created equal. You can say that again as there is no protocole amongst shaft manufacturers regarding stiffness.
Natgolfer made a reference to cpm(cycles per minute). While 2 shafts from 2 different suppliers may yield the same frequency the shafts may perform differently if the frequency test is done at different locations across the shaft. In other words the shafts may have different bending profile though they might have the same tip frequency. This task can be performed with a frequency meter or the NF2( A spine finder/deflection device that measures deflection in thousands of an inch) or a deflection board. Anyway this difficult for me to explain and perhards Natgolfer could phrase it better.
Earlier this year the owner of this forum claimed he gained substantial yardage by going to a Bang driver. http://www.ottawagolf.com/forum/show...t=bang+drivers . Dan are you getting higher or lower trajectory with your new driver?
Golfdoc you may have your answer right there.

[natgolfer]

Andru, The process that you went through to find the right driver for you is excellent. You were able to relate the launch monitor numbers from the inside testing to the sound and ball flight of actually hitting the same club(s) outside. The reality probability is though, that few people who buy these expensive OEM drivers, take/have the time to go through this process. Perhaps arming these people with a few questions to ask the salesperson at a local retail shop, might prevent them from wasting their money and being disappointed.

When you were talking about a "regular club fitter," do you mean one that can fit you with an OEM, or one that uses components? If the latter, what component heads were on the shafts? There are some great components out there, particularly the SMT and BANG products and a few from the major component suppliers such as Golfsmith, Wishon Golf and the like. However, there is also a lot of junk out there, particularly the clones. Clones are components, but not all components are clones. Most clones are made with inferior materials, whereas some components are quality stuff. Try finding a nicer set of irons than the Wishon forged cavity backs. (550C) Interestingly, the owner and designer of the SMT line of woods was offered the titanium that Taylor uses in its 500 series drivers. He refused it, saying that it was not good enough.

If you hit five or six 7 irons and the ball lands at the 150 yard stick. Ok that's what a pure 7 iron feels, looks, smells like. Now, what if one of the 7 irons set up beautifully, and felt great at impact, but the ball curved a little left, or you always hit it a little thin, would you buy the set? Probably not. However, if you knew that if the club was extended 1/2", you would stop hitting it thin, or if the lie was flattened 2 degrees that that little hook would disappear, would you buy the clubs, now. Probably. Are there any local retailers who would make these adjustments for you, at no extra cost? Probably not, but they should. If you bought the set of irons, do the shafts match?(Not likely) Are any of the shafts bent? (They are probably all bent) Have they been spined and all oriented consistently? (Absolutely not!) But, they should be.

Last winter I disassembled a new set of Hogan forged blades for a member of this forum and a new set of Titleist forged blades that belonged to one of the pros at The Marshes. The quality control was appalling. With two heads from one set and three of the other, the hosel bores were not drilled in the centre of the hosel. In one case the 6 iron was significantly stiffer than the 7 iron, and generally, there was not a consistent stiffness difference from club to club. And for that you pay $1000 to $1500?
The advantages of seeing a true custom club fitter, both in reduced cost and a getting properly fit set of clubs, far outweigh the psychological advantage of playing with an OEM club. I am obviously biased.

Buying off the rack means that you have a chance of getting good clubs. Getting properly fitted, guarantees it.

[Andru]

Please nat

Don't make me go over ever pain staking detail. I know what you're trying to say. You don't have to poke holes in my post. I can assure you I don't under estimate the proficiency of a dynamic club fitting session with a certified professional club fitter. I had my hogans redone with a clubfitter. It was a great lesson.

Now. My comment about the 7 iron was yes a pure stoke on the ball that flies fairly straight. I'm not saying replace a club fitter. I'm saying understand what makes a great driver for you.

I was lucky/determined to have the resources and time to fit myself with the aid of a launch monitor and the comfort level with my game to trust what I felt. I had a club fitting pro give me specific advice on the numbers I was trying to achieve.

I know some people maybe can't afford or just plain refuse to purchase pricey OEM gear. I'm not debating the quality of certain brands it's not my place. I would defer to you on that. I can only recommend a session on a launch monitor because I've done it and it's fantastic. If you have the time and opportunity check it out. You never know. You could pick up and extra 15 yards by reducing your spin rate by 1000 rpm or changing your launch conditions.

Join the dark side Nat I know you can't refuse!!!! WIth 15 extra yards you could rule the Ottawa golf Tour. HAHAHA evil laugh with thunder and lighting to follow

Cheers

[natgolfer]

I apologize if you have interpreted my comments as criticisms of what you did to get a driver or what you may have done to get irons. If everyone did what you did then golfers would have golf clubs that fit their physique and swing, than what I perceive they do now. By using what you did say my intent was to make anyone who bothered to read my/our long posts aware that there are other paramenters to be considered, when getting clubs. The decision of what to buy should not be an emotional one, but practical, like yours.

If someone wants to buy the latest that "Tiger" is using, then that's fine. If they want to get a good set of properly fitted sticks, see someone who knows what they are doing.

WIth 15 extra yards you could rule the Ottawa golf Tour. Actually I did pick up 15 yards this year, but I still hit the ball 40 yards shorter than most young boppers. The extra distance is nice, but my only concern is accuracy, as good putting with accurate irons and drives, will beat the 300 yard hitters 90% of the time. Eh, CP, PL, MP??

[Andru]

Nat

I just read my post again it it did come off a little more defensive than intended. I apologize for that. Geez Canadians are so polite

as good putting with accurate irons and drives, will beat the 300 yard hitters 90% of the time

This is true.

The funny thing is you can't really use the launch monitor to dynamically fit irons. It's mainly used for the driver. I'm with you on this everyone should be custom fit by a professional club maker.

My Hogans felt like different clubs when I had the shafts and grips redone. I still had to add lead tape to them to increase the swing weight.

[Chieflongtee]

Natgolfer. How about hitting the gym?


WIth 15 extra yards you could rule the Ottawa golf Tour. Actually I did pick up 15 yards this year, but I still hit the ball 40 yards shorter than most young boppers. The extra distance is nice, but my only concern is accuracy, as good putting with accurate irons and drives, will beat the 300 yard hitters 90% of the time. Eh, CP, PL, MP?? [/QUOTE]

[natgolfer]

Natgolfer. How about hitting the gym?

Actually, I work out at home, but not as much as I used to. I am finding that as I get deeper into retirement, I am getting lazier and lazier. And besides, by not working out as much, I am giving the young guys who workout twice a day, a chance.

So how many NF2's have you built? I keep reading the comments on the Neufinder forum and with all the modifications that you guys have come up with, I am tempted to build a second one, but when I get the urge to do so, I lie down until I feel better.

[Chieflongtee]

Natgolfer. All and all I built 5 until a new guy came along. I'll send you a private email. I would actually trade or build one for a good set of used irons.
Yours truly. André.