This Happens Too Often

[BC MIST]

Gerry is on the putting green in two, 25' from the hole and Dan's ball is 30' away but on the same line as Gerry's. Dan asks Gerry to move his marker and Gerry moves the marker 1 putter head to the right. Dan sinks his putt for birdie. Gerry puts his ball down in front of his marker and putts to 1' from the hole.

Dan asks, "Did you move your marker back?"

Gerry says, "Darn! No." He picks up his ball, places it back where it should have been had he properly moved the marker back, and 2 putts from there.

What is Gerry's score for the hole?

[rando777]

Is that a 5?

[sillywilly]

match or stroke?

[Indio]

I believe it is a 5. Par 4 plus one stroke penalty for initially not having replaced the ball in its' proper location.

If he would have sunk the 2nd putt (obviously he wasn't paying attention to the line the first time because he didn't), I would assume a 4. Birdie plus 1 stroke.

[hoolio]

Doesn't the original stroke count though?

[Hacker]

His score would be 9.

2 to get on, 3 putts, 2 penalty strokes from playing it from the wrong spot the first time and 2 additional strokes from playing it from the wrong spot the second time (after his 3rd stroke he moved it back to where he originally thought it should have been).

I'm using 20-7 as to come up with my conclusion.....

20-7. Playing from Wrong Place
• a. General
A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke with his ball in play:
(i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be played or a ball to be dropped or placed; or (ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.
Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground — see Rule 11-4.
• b. Match Play
If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.
• c. Stroke Play
If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).
If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules.
If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified. The Committee must determine whether the competitor has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.
Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.
Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not permitted.

[Sakuraba]

I appreciate the return to familiar names. Dan, dropping the 30 foot birdie bomb in Gerry's face!

[LobWedge]

His score would be 9.

2 to get on, 3 putts, 2 penalty strokes from playing it from the wrong spot the first time and 2 additional strokes from playing it from the wrong spot the second time (after his 3rd stroke he moved it back to where he originally thought it should have been).

I'm using 20-7 as to come up with my conclusion.....

20-7. Playing from Wrong Place
• a. General
A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke with his ball in play:
(i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be played or a ball to be dropped or placed; or (ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.
Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground — see Rule 11-4.
• b. Match Play
If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.
• c. Stroke Play
If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).
If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules.
If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified. The Committee must determine whether the competitor has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.
Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.
Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not permitted.

Close. Very close...

[Kilroy]

I appreciate the return to familiar names. Dan, dropping the 30 foot birdie bomb in Gerry's face!

It was an amazing putt but I am sure the golf gods (BC Mist) will put me in a bad place very soon!

[BC MIST]

In part, I included this ruling to show that we deal with a wrong ball and playing from a wrong place differently.

A ball played from a wrong place is NOT replayed, unless there is a serious breach and in this case there is not, as the ball was played only a couple of inches from where it should have been played.

Gerry made three mistakes and playing from a wrong place was one of them. Any more guesses?

[Thunder]

I believe it is an 8 maybe 9. The original 2 shots. then the putt to a foot is 3. This is where I am not sure, it is either a 1 or 2 stroke penalty for playing from the wrong spot, so we'll say 4. plus a 2 stroke penalty for taking his ball out of play makes 6, then 2 putts from the original spot makes 8?????. Or lets just DQ the guy and make it easier.

[jonf]

Well, according to the rule Hacker posted, what he should have done after taking the third stroke was to finish the hole and incur a two stroke penalty (which, assuming he made the one footer, would have given him a 6).

However, since he picked up his ball, we add on a two stroke penalty for taking his ball out of play. So...

2 to get to the green, 3 for the putt, plus two for playing from a wrong place = 5. Then there is a two stroke penalty for taking his ball out of play, giving him 7, and then 2 putts = 9.

[BC MIST]

Well, according to the rule Hacker posted, what he should have done after taking the third stroke was to finish the hole and incur a two stroke penalty (which, assuming he made the one footer, would have given him a 6).

However, since he picked up his ball, we add on a two stroke penalty for taking his ball out of play. So...

2 to get to the green, 3 for the putt, plus two for playing from a wrong place = 5. Then there is a two stroke penalty for taking his ball out of play, giving him 7, and then 2 putts = 9.

In addition to playing from a wrong place, the second mistake that Gerry made was to have picked up his ball, which was in play without marking it. Penalty 1 stroke. Because his did not replace the ball on the spot from which he picked it up, he is effectively penalized 1 more stroke, so his penalties total 4 strokes. Plus 2 to get to the green and 2 putts for a total of 8. Decision 20-7c/2 covers all of this.

Most golfers know that if they play a wrong ball they must go back and play the "right" ball. But if they play from a wrong place, they don't have to go back, unless the wrong place they played from gave them a significant advantage.

Most fellow competitors exhibit good etiquette and remind players to move the ball back, as we do occasionally forget, particularly as one gets older.

[Kilroy]

Similarly, when I play from a wrong place the actual stroke does not count, but I am penalized 2 strokes. Wherever the ball ends up is the place from which I make my next stroke.

Say what?

20-7 states for stroke play

If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).

Where does it say the stroke does not count? If you are not replacing it (as in the outside the tee box case) the stroke made counts.

The stroke plus 2 strokes penalty = 3 strokes and play it where it lies after playing from a wrong place.

[Started2k3]

2 - to the green
1 - 1-putter head to 1' from the hole
2 - playing from the wrong place: 20-7
1 - improper lift and marking: 20-1
2 - from the original spot 2 putt
2 - playing from the wrong place (original spot): 20-7
10

[BC MIST]

Say what?

20-7 states for stroke play

If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).

Where does it say the stroke does not count? If you are not replacing it (as in the outside the tee box case) the stroke made counts.

The stroke plus 2 strokes penalty = 3 strokes and play it where it lies after playing from a wrong place.

You are correct. I said incorrectly that the stroke was not included, but I did include it in the total. Doh!! You can see why I still an amateur. My previous post has been amended.

[BC MIST]

2 - to the green
1 - 1-putter head to 1' from the hole
2 - playing from the wrong place: 20-7
1 - improper lift and marking: 20-1
2 - from the original spot 2 putt
2 - playing from the wrong place (original spot): 20-7
10

2 - Two strokes to the green
2 - Two putts
2 - Two penalty strokes for playing from a wrong place
1 - One stroke penalty for lifting the ball without marking
1 - One stroke penalty for not replacing
Total - 8

Decision 20-7c/2

Q. In stroke play, A mistakenly replaced his ball in front of B's ball-marker (which was near A's ball-marker) and putted. The ball came to rest about one foot from the hole. The error was then discovered and A lifted his ball without marking its position, placed it in front of his own ball-marker and finished the hole. What is the ruling?

A. When A replaced his ball in front of B's ball-marker and putted, he played from a wrong place and incurred a penalty of two strokes; the ball was in play Rule 20-7c.

When A then lifted his ball from where it lay about one foot from the hole without marking its position and did not replace it, he incurred the general penalty (two strokes) for a breach of Rule 20-1 - see second paragraph of Rule 20-1.

Thus, A incurred a total penalty of four strokes. (Formerly 20-7b/2 - Changed 2004)

[jonf]

I'm confused. He ended up taking 3 strokes on the green. Once playing from a wrong place, followed by two after picking up his ball. Which of these strokes is not counted, and why? Should it not be:

2 - Two strokes to the green
1 - One putt
2 - Two penalty strokes for playing from a wrong place
1 - One stroke penalty for lifting the ball without marking
1 - One stroke penalty for not replacing
2 - two putts

For a total of 9?

[Started2k3]

2 - Two strokes to the green
2 - Two putts
2 - Two penalty strokes for playing from a wrong place
1 - One stroke penalty for lifting the ball without marking
1 - One stroke penalty for not replacing
Total - 8

Does he not have to count the stroke to 1' from the hole?
Or is that a "freebie" since he already has 4 penalty strokes?
This would make it three putts ... total of 9.

Sorry jonf I saw your post after.

[BC MIST]

Does he not have to count the stroke to 1' from the hole?
Or is that a "freebie" since he already has 4 penalty strokes?

That putt was first of the two putts.

[jonf]

the initial scenario states that he putts to 1' from the hole, then picks up, goes back to where he should have played from, and two putts.

As I see it, he has now made a total of 5 strokes on the hole, and has 4 penalty strokes, for a total of 9, no?

[BC MIST]

the initial scenario states that he putts to 1' from the hole, then picks up, goes back to where he should have played from, and two putts.

As I see it, he has now made a total of 5 strokes on the hole, and has 4 penalty strokes, for a total of 9, no?

He putted from the wrong place and for that he was penalized two strokes. The ball is now 1' from the hole and is in its right place because you don't go back and play the stroke from the former right place. The old right place is now, therefore, a wrong place and even though he putted from it, the stroke does not count, because he has already made his first stroke, nor is he any further penalized for playing from a new wrong place.

He lifts without marking and does not replace for a further penalty of 2 strokes. Four penalty strokes + 2 putts + 2 full swings = 8 strokes. While the reality is that both putts were made from places they should not have been made, to penalize him more than 4 strokes for what he did, would be excessively punitive. This must make perfect sense, now.

[Started2k3]

I get it ... when he moved back to the original marker spot he holed it.

[BC MIST]

I get it ... when he moved back to the original marker spot he holed it.

Nope, but methinks thou tryeth to pulleth my chaineth.

[Started2k3]

My problem is that he took 5 strokes at the ball and 4 penalty strokes. By saying 8 he gets to ignore the stroke from the "moved marker spot" to 1' from the hole ... is this true?

[BC MIST]

My problem is that he took 5 strokes at the ball and 4 penalty strokes. By saying 8 he gets to ignore the stroke from the "moved marker spot" to 1' from the hole ... is this true?

Exactly. The major sin for which he was punished 2 strokes was playing the initial stroke from a wrong place and the stroke counted. Plus the other two penalty strokes for other reasons.

There is no exact analogy but it is similar to playing a wrong ball. If you make 5 strokes at a wrong ball before you realize that is is a wrong ball, do you count the strokes? Not at all. While you must go back and play a "right" ball, the strokes with the wrong ball don't count.

[sensfan63]

If ANYONE here actually threw this at their fellow competitor in a friendly/low money match...well, let's just say that whoever does takes this game WAY too seriously.

However, good question for what seems like several rules officials on this board.

[Started2k3]

Exactly. The major sin for which he was punished 2 strokes was playing the initial stroke from a wrong place and the stroke counted. Plus the other two penalty strokes for other reasons.

There is no exact analogy but it is similar to playing a wrong ball. If you make 5 strokes at a wrong ball before you realize that is is a wrong ball, do you count the strokes? Not at all. While you must go back and play a "right" ball, the strokes with the wrong ball don't count.

You might want to check with this decision for your logic. Although it is a different question it is relevent because it shows that the extra stroke from the wrong place does count on the final score.


Decision 20-7c/4
Competitor’s Ball Played by Fellow-Competitor; Competitor Substitutes Another Ball at Wrong Place, Plays It and Then Abandons It and Plays Out Original Ball From Right Place

Question:
In stroke play, A, B and C hit their tee shots into the same area. After B and C have played their second shots, A discovers that the remaining ball is not his and, although it is clear that either B or C has played his ball, A assumes that his ball has been played by B. The final paragraph of Rule 15-3b requires A to place a ball on the spot from which his ball was played. A places another ball on the spot from which B played his second shot and plays it to the green. There it is discovered that it was C, not B, who wrongly played A’s ball and that A has therefore played the substituted ball from a wrong place. A accepts a two-stroke penalty under the applicable Rule (Rules 15-3b and 20-7c), but he then abandons the substituted ball, thinking he must correct his error. A picks up his original ball, goes back to the spot where C played his second shot, plays it from there onto the putting green and takes two putts to hole out. A then drives from the next tee. What is the ruling, and what did A score on the hole?

Answer:
A’s procedure was correct up to the point he abandoned the substituted ball. It is a question of fact who actually played A’s ball, and this fact was something that A could have determined prior to playing the substituted ball. The substituted ball, albeit played from a wrong place, was now A’s ball in play, and his original ball was out of play. As A’s breach was not serious, he was not required to correct the error of playing from a wrong place. Instead of abandoning the substituted ball, A should have played out the hole with it (Rule 13-1) in accordance with Rule 20-7c, adding to his score the two-stroke penalty he had correctly accepted under Rule 15-3b.

When A went back and played his original ball from the right place (i.e., from where C had wrongly played it), he was substituting a ball for his ball in play in breach of Rule 15-2 as well as playing from the wrong place. Therefore, he incurred an additional penalty of two strokes (Rules 13-1, 15-2 and 20-7c) for a total of four penalty strokes. A’s score for the hole was 9. (Revised)

[BC MIST]

You might want to check with this decision for your logic. Although it is a different question it is relevent because it shows that the extra stroke from the wrong place does count on the final score.

Based on the decision that you quoted, it certainly seems that the player's score would, in fact, be a 9. However, there are varying opinions. A Level 4 RCGA official has indicated that the score would be 9, but a USGA official, the equivalent to our Level 4, indicated that the score would be 8.

Upon reading 20-7c/4 and seeing that the situation is virtually identical to 20-7c/2, the score should be 9. If there is any good news in the revised decision is that if the ruling had have been made before 2008, the player's score would have been 11. Maybe by 2012, it will be down to 7.

Perhaps AAA will offer an opinion because if anyone knows the "final" answer, he does.

[Started2k3]

Maybe a R&A official can get it down to a 7 before 2012.

Very tough question.