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Thread: Hazard

  1. #1
    Playing Winter Rules Farzin is on a distinguished road
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    Hazard

    QUOTE
    All lakes and ditches are defined as water hazards (red and yellow stakes) PENALTY - 1 stroke , drop two club length from point of entry. UNQUOTE
    The above quote is printed on the back of score card at a local golf course. However there is no stakes at the golf course around the dithches that are crossing the fairway or along the fairway on the rough sides of the fairway.. what rule does apply to a ball that falls in the ditches, considering there is no stakes, but the score card says ditches are hazard.
    the following is the PGA definition of hazard
    QUOTE
    Definitions
    A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature.

    All ground or water within the margin of a water hazard is part of the water hazard
    Note 1: Water hazards (other than lateral water hazards) should be defined by yellow stakes or lines.
    Note 1: Lateral water hazards should be defined by red stakes or lines.
    ..UNQUOTE
    please note that the word "should" is used rather than the word "must" for defining water hazard with stakes.

    Source: http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/rule26.htm
    Last edited by Farzin; 11-22-2003 at 07:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    And relief from a water hazard (yellow stakes) is different from a lateral hazard (red stakes).

    This is from the USGA website - http://www.usga.org/rules/

    First, as per Rule 26-1, you have to determine that the ball was indeed lost in the water hazard.

    It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck toward a water hazard is lost inside or outside the hazard. In order to treat the ball as lost in the hazard, there must be reasonable evidence that the ball lodged in it. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
    Once it is assured that the ball is in the hazard, someone saw it go in there, you find it in the hazard, etc. The relief comes into play. The third option is only for lateral hazards (red stakes).

    If a ball is in or is lost in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

    Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5);

    or

    Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

    or

    As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

    The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.
    Here's the definition of a lateral water hazard:

    Lateral Water Hazard
    A “lateral water hazard’’ is a water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b.
    That part of a water hazard to be played as a lateral water hazard should be distinctively marked. A ball is in a lateral water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the lateral water hazard.
    Note 1: Lateral water hazards should be defined by red stakes or lines.
    Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area which has been defined as a lateral water hazard.
    Note 3: The Committee may define a lateral water hazard as a water hazard.
    Just for fun, here is Rule 27-1...

    27-1. Ball Lost or Out of Bounds

    If a ball is lost or is out of bounds, the player shall play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

    Exceptions:


    If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in a water hazard, the player shall proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.
    If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in an immovable obstruction (Rule 24-2c) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c) the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

    PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 27-1:
    Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.
    What did I miss Gary?
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  3. #3
    Playing Winter Rules Farzin is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colby
    What did I miss Gary?
    everything

  4. #4
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Hanifi -

    As the book says, ditches are water hazards whether or not marked.

    When there are no markings, the margin of the water hazard is the point where the ground falls away from the level of the fairway.

     

    Quote Originally Posted by Colby
    What did I miss Gary?
    Colby - The point.

     
     
     
     

  5. #5
    Hall of Fame NoBack is on a distinguished road NoBack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hill
    As the book says, ditches are water hazards whether or not marked.
    Now explain what a "drainage ditch" is, and the relief or penalties assessed or taken.

  6. #6
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hill
    Colby - The point.
    Actually Gary what I beleive this is about is the #15 hole at Falcon Ridge, where we played on Friday, there is a ditch running perpendicular to the left edge of the fairway, this ditch crosses # 6 and 7 also, and to the right side, over a mound to the right of the fairway is a small pond about 25-30 feet wide and 15-20 feet across. Neither the ditch nor the pond is marked as a hazard. The scorecard and course tour on this site don't show the water.

    The question came up as to where the ball should be placed for relief, and what constitutes a lateral hazard. Another point is that the ball, from the tee, flew over the mound and none of us saw it enter the water. All four of us were sure it went into the water, so the lost ball rule bcomes a ball in water hazard rule as per 27-1, which is why I included that. The big point of contention was point of entry, which I don't think we will ever agree on for that ball, and I'm not sure how to work that out for the future. This was the primary reason for disagreeing on where to drop the ball.

    Anyways, the drop was made and the round was finished with no-one killed or maimed, so it was a good day
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  7. #7
    Hall of Fame NoBack is on a distinguished road NoBack's Avatar
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    Talking not the issue

    Let's see what rules and rulings writen for ball in "drainage ditch".
    I've spent most of my life golfing .... the rest I've just wasted"
    www.nationalcapitalgolftour.com

  8. #8
    Playing Winter Rules Farzin is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hill
    Hanifi -

    As the book says, ditches are water hazards whether or not marked.

    When there are no markings, the margin of the water hazard is the point where the ground falls away from the level of the fairway.

     



    Colby - The point.

     
     
     
     
    Thanks for the reply Gary, to me everything was clear and is clear as you said, but some of my veteran player friends had a different taking on the issue, that I hope that now they got it too and admit to their breach of rules.


  9. #9
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    The "Rule of Thumb" classification for a drainage ditch is:
    If the greenkeeper can't cross it while mowing with a "gang mower", then it is a ditch (ie. depression) and, therefore, a water hazard.

    You stated: "All four of us were sure it went into the water".
    From your description, I am not sure that that is the case.
    You may wish to review this thread. Reasonable Evidence 101

    Assuming that the ball was lost in the water hazard, the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard shall be determined.

    The relief procedure to be used is determined from this point.
    If that point is in a lateral water hazard, then the additional options may be used.

    However, a lateral hazard hazard must either:

    1. Be impossible to drop behind (eg. Out of Bounds) or
    2. Be deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop behind (by indication with red stakes or lines)

    In this case (not marked), it seems that this point would NOT qualify as a lateral water hazard.
    (Doesn't anybody ever complain to management that the water hazards are not marked?)

    RE: determining where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard

    If the players use their best judgement to determine where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard, that point is deemed to be the correct point.
    Otherwise, a player would risk incurring a penalty every time he makes an honest judgement and that judgement subsequently proves incorrect.

    For example, if a player plays a ball which has been dropped behind a water hazard and his original ball is subsequently found in the water hazard some 20 yards away, he would NOT be subject to penalty for playing from the wrong place.

    BTW - The 'Local Rule' stated on the scorecard is in error and is not consistent with the policies set forth in Appendix I.
    If you like, I will report them to the R.C.G.A.

  10. #10
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hill
    The "Rule of Thumb" classification for a drainage ditch is:
    If the greenkeeper can't cross it while mowing with a "gang mower", then it is a ditch (ie. depression) and, therefore, a water hazard.
    Gary,

    I assume that the other side of this rule of thumb, that is, the greenkeeper could cross the ditch while mowing with a "gang mower", which would make it a drainage ditch, would be covered through the green, that is in either fairway or rough. Is that correct?
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  11. #11
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    err, Yes.

    "Through the Green" is:

    1. not a hazard
    2. not the teeing ground of the hole being played
    3. not the putting green of the hole being played
    4. not out of bounds

    There is no distinction in the Rules between "fairway" and "rough".

    The "Rule of Thumb' was merely given as an example to show that a ditch would generally break off sharply from the level of the fairway.

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