Hypothetical Situations- Rulings

[BC MIST]

(A) A player hits his tee shot towards an area of trees and thinking that it may be lost, plays a provisional. The ball flies in the same direction as the first. Upon arriving at the area where the balls flew he finds two balls, one in a lateral water hazard and one is nearby in the rough. They are both his, but they are the same number and make. What is the ruling?

(B) Similar situation to the above, except: he plays the ball in the rough since the it lies in the quadrant where the ball would be dropped, if the player were to drop within 2 club lengths of the “point of entry.”
What penalties, if any, does he incur and why?

gb and AAA, your human rights are temporarily suspended.

[gbower]

[BullDog]

(a) He cannot identify his ball -they're deemed lost. Hit 5 from the tee.

(b) Were one of the balls marked this time? If not, he still cannot identify which ball is which. Back to the tee.. hopefully he holes his fifth shot.

(A) A player hits his tee shot towards an area of trees and thinking that it may be lost, plays a provisional. The ball flies in the same direction as the first. Upon arriving at the area where the balls flew he finds two balls, one in a lateral water hazard and one is nearby in the rough. They are both his, but they are the same number and make. What is the ruling?

(B) Similar situation to the above, except: he plays the ball in the rough since the it lies in the quadrant where the ball would be dropped, if the player were to drop within 2 club lengths of the “point of entry.”
What penalties, if any, does he incur and why?

gb and AAA, your human rights are temporarily suspended.

[sillywilly]

A: He can play whichever he likes but is scored as if he hit his provisional and the other ball was lost

B: no clue

[Kiwi battler]

Fairly sure the answer to both is "his next shot is his 4th"

Theres a decision somewhere that says basically when he cant identify which is which , he can pick which he wants to play and plays his 4th shot

[BC MIST]

(a) He cannot identify his ball -they're deemed lost. Hit 5 from the tee.

(b) Were one of the balls marked this time? If not, he still cannot identify which ball is which. Back to the tee.. hopefully he holes his fifth shot.

Some questions to consider for A:
(1) One of the balls was found in a lateral water hazard? Was he permitted to play a provisional?
(2) As both balls were found, one is the original and one is the "provisional." For that reason, why would he have to go back to the tee to play 5?

Some questions to consider for B:
(1) Was he permitted to play the ball found in the rough near the hazard? Why? Why not?
(2) If he did play the ball and was NOT permitted to do so, did he play (a) a wrong ball, (b) a wrongly substituted ball, (c) from the wrong place, (d) other

Any comments are welcome.

[Kiwi battler]

A , assuming he reason to believe the original ball was lost outside the hazard he could play a provisional ball , which he did ...he doesnt go back to play the 5th from the tee , but can hit the provisional ball for his 4th shot

B , he couldnt identify which ball was which ? so he once again can play either ball
he can play the ball as it lies in the hazard , 4th shot
or , play the ball in the rough for his 4th shot

if he chooses the ball in the hazard , and elects to take relief from it , he MUST drop the ball in the proper place , playing his 5th shot .....he cant play the ball in the rough for his 5th shot

Ive based this on an extension of the decision which I havent time to find and quote ....so do NOT quote me as its partly guesswork especially part B and playing the ball not dropped

Bugga it , Im gunna be late for golf now lol , Dec 27-11

[LSteve]

(A) The player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional and abandon the other.

(B) Regardless of which ball the player chooses as the provisional, his next stroke would be his 4th.

[Kiwi battler]

LSteve , your assuming he knows he can choose in B .....

[BC MIST]

LSteve , your assuming he knows he can choose in B .....

Playing a provisional was OK, if he thought the ball was lost outside the lateral water hazard, OR, if he was unaware that the LWH even existed. However, as soon as it is "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the LWH, which one ball was, he MUST abandon the provisional.

A Because it is presumed that the second ball is the "provisional," which now must be abandoned, would he not just select one of the 5 options available to him under the LWH rule, Rule 26?

B In B, he played a ball that was out of play, but it was played from a "right" place, but was not put into play correctly. Did he:
-play a wrong ball?
-play from a wrong place?
-incorrectly substitute and play a ball?
One of these three has an implication that the other two do not.

[Kiwi battler]

A , the chosen "ball outside the hazard" provisional ball does NOT need to be abandoned , it can be played for his 4th shot , assuming he didnt want to play the ball in the hazard

B , he obviously didnt realise he could play his 4th shot with the ball outside the bunker
so has chosen the ball in the hazard as the ball in play , his 4th shot is a penalty drop from the hazard
Heres where it becomes tricky , if he plays the "now substituted " ball outside the hazard , it is his 5th shot , and he incurs an additional penalty shot for incorrectly dropping the ball , UNLESS he redrops the ball before playing the 5th shot
IMO which is often wrong lol

[BC MIST]

A , the chosen "ball outside the hazard" provisional ball does NOT need to be abandoned , it can be played for his 4th shot , assuming he didnt want to play the ball in the hazard

As the first ball was neither lost nor out of bounds, the provisional ball MUST be abandoned. If he plays it he will have played wrong ball.

B , he obviously didnt realise he could play his 4th shot with the ball outside the bunker
so has chosen the ball in the hazard as the ball in play , his 4th shot is a penalty drop from the hazard
Heres where it becomes tricky , if he plays the "now substituted " ball outside the hazard , it is his 5th shot , and he incurs an additional penalty shot for incorrectly dropping the ball , UNLESS he redrops the ball before playing the 5th shot
IMO which is often wrong lol

The shot he would have played had he taken relief under the water hazard rule would have been his 3rd shot, not fourth, as there is a 1 stroke penalty only.

In playing the second ball, is he playing JUST a wrong ball, or is it a wrongly substituted ball? If it's a wrongly substituted ball? It CANNOT be a wrong ball, and if the drop is not corrected, he gets a 2 stroke penalty, ONLY. But if it's a [I]wrong ball he gets 2 strokes PLUS he must return to the scene of the crime and play again and if he does not he is disqualified.

Now, if he is playing from a wrong place, he gets 2 strokes, does NOT have to replay the stroke at the spot from which it was hit, unless there is a serious breach and there was not in this case.

To me, the ball he played is an abandoned ball, therefore he played a wrong ball,not a wrongly substituted ball nor a ball played from a wrong place.

Other opinions?

[Started2k3]

Decision 27/11 - Provisional Ball Not Distinguishable from Original Ball

A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them. Following are various situations and the solutions, which are based on equity (Rule 1-4), when the above circumstances exist and one or both of the balls are found within a search of five minutes:

Situation 1: One ball is found in a water hazard and the other ball is not found.

Solution 1: The ball that was found must be presumed to be the provisional ball.

Situation 2: Both balls are found in a water hazard.

Solution 2: As the player’s original ball is lost in the water hazard due to his inability to identify it (see analogous Decision 27/10), the player must proceed under Rule 26-1 with respect to the original ball (estimating the spot where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, if necessary – see Decision 26-1/17); his next stroke would be his third.

Situation 3: One ball is found in bounds and the other ball is lost or is found out of bounds.

Solution 3: The ball in bounds must be presumed to be the provisional ball.

Situation 4: Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker.

Solution 4: One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other. (Revised)

This decision seems to cover your hypothetical situation.

(A) I would deem the one in the rough to be the provisional - lying 3.
(B) Doesn't matter - still lying 3.

[Sakuraba]

I liked the hypothetical scenarios better when you referred to the players by names like Dan, Mike & Lyle.

[Kiwi battler]

BC , you said " They are both his, but they are the same number and make" , did you forget to add "but he can identify which is which" ?????????

assuming he cant indentify which ball is which
In A... we assume dec 27-11 covers it
In B ... an abandoned ball can and has been used as a substituted ball
The question is , the now substituted ball .....is it in play ? or does he have to lift and drop it before its classed a substitute ball
Does playing it make it a substitute ball even tho he hasnt dropped it ? , if so , what penalty ? is it for an incorrect drop ?
Lets assume the drop is incorrect , rule 20-2 says if he doesnt correct the error he cops 1 shot penalty
BUT rule 20-7 says a player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball which is required by the rules to redrop - 2 shots
Id have to err on the side of 1 penalty shot

[BC MIST]

This decision seems to cover your hypothetical situation.

(A) I would deem the one in the rough to be the provisional - lying 3.
(B) Doesn't matter - still lying 3.

It does. After making a huge mountain out of a molehill, the solution is obviously quite simple.

What blocked my narrow mind was the use of the term provisional. (Both balls found, therefore, there IS no provisional, so it must be something else and so on.)

By the book, neither ball is an original nor a true provisional, so the solution, "pick one," makes sense and is far less punitive than what it could have been.

[Kilroy]

When I first read the question I thought "Didn't we just cover this last week?"

You didn't exclude me from responding but I ended up not posting since I had nothing to add. I was waiting fo you to tell us what we all missed.

[Kiwi battler]

Still worth exploring the idea of picking the ball in the hazard , and playing the other ball without dropping it

any further ideas to what i wrote ?

[BC MIST]

BC , you said " They are both his, but they are the same number and make" , did you forget to add "but he can identify which is which" ?????????

assuming he cant indentify which ball is which
In A... we assume dec 27-11 covers it
In B ... an abandoned ball can and has been used as a substituted ball
The question is , the now substituted ball .....is it in play ? or does he have to lift and drop it before its classed a substitute ball
Does playing it make it a substitute ball even tho he hasnt dropped it ? , if so , what penalty ? is it for an incorrect drop ?
Lets assume the drop is incorrect , rule 20-2 says if he doesnt correct the error he cops 1 shot penalty
BUT rule 20-7 says a player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball which is required by the rules to redrop - 2 shots
Id have to err on the side of 1 penalty shot

Aw, but he could not identify which is which.

All this wrong ball, abandoned ball, wrong place, substituted ball that we both thought may have been relevant, is out the window because of what 27-11(4) says. One in hazard, one in rough - pick one. If the ball selected is in water in the hazard, he would have to drop and PLAY 5, whereas if he plays the one not in the hazard, he would be playing only 4.

Sometimes the rules make a simple situation complicated but this time it made a complicated one, simple.

[Kiwi battler]

I knew the answer to your original post , and even quoted the relevent dec , but am keen to explore the sidespin you almost took us on , and any penalties

lets say , he manages to identify the ball in the hazard as his original.....then decides he wants relief but instead of dropping a ball , he now plays the other ball ...
does it become a substituted ball in play , how many penalties ?

We can learn more from this than the original question IMO

[BC MIST]

I knew the answer to your original post , and even quoted the relevent dec , but am keen to explore the sidespin you almost took us on , and any penalties

lets say , he manages to identify the ball in the hazard as his original.....then decides he wants relief but instead of dropping a ball , he now plays the other ball ...
does it become a substituted ball in play , how many penalties ?

We can learn more from this than the original question IMO

Agreed.

To answer your question, the first place to look at is the definitions of a substituted ball and a wrong ball. A SB is a ball put into play for the original ball that was either in play, lost out of bounds or lifted. This definitely applies. A WB is any ball OTHER than the player's...provisional ball.,.and includes an abandoned ball. If he can identify the original ball in the hazard as his first ball, then his "provisional" MUST be abandoned. Therefore, both definitions seem to apply to your bolded scenario above. If it is an SB, then he just adds 2 strokes, but if it is a WB, then he must replay the stroke from the point where he hit the WB and then add 2 strokes. Effectively, he loses the distance.

If you agree with this, which one would you choose, if you were the on site official?

[AAA]

A SB is a ball put into play ....

How was it put into play ?

[BC MIST]

How was it put into play ?

It was his "provisional." Would this make the play of the ball a wrong ball?

[Kiwi battler]

He has already abandoned his provisional ball when he took a penalty from the hazard

Does playing the now "abandonded" ball not bring it into play as a substituted ball , seeing as it was in the relief area

If this is true , the only breach is for a incurrect drop ?

The rules on an incurrect drop seem a little contradictary?

Id rule 1 shot for breaching 20-2 , unless I didnt like the guy lol , 2 shots for 20-7

[AAA]

It was his "provisional." Would this make the play of the ball a wrong ball?

Sorry BC. As I was barred from this I have just got round to reading the full thread. Of course I then lost track part way through and misread it.

Ignore my post.

I would only comment that the two (A & B) situations were answered correctly early on.

[BC MIST]

Sorry BC. As I was barred from this I have just got round to reading the full thread. Of course I then lost track part way through and misread it.

You will never be barred because we need your knowledge and expertise.

It's like the teacher who asks a class a tough question that he wants everyone to think about and then some mouthy little attention seeker blurts out the answer to show everyone how smart he is. You are not the latter but providing those interested with a chance to think and research first, may be beneficial to them.

It should not be presumed that I know the rulings to all the scenarios that I make up or find elsewhere. On the one I initially presented I knew the proper rule involved, but was blinded by other possibilities or perhaps by my own incompetence.

[Wknd_Warrior]

he has to walk back and put another ball in play if he wants to play out the hole

[Wknd_Warrior]

b) disqualified or loss of hole

[Wknd_Warrior]

so you get to pick the best one and are lying 3? That doesn't make sense. Since both balls are found the provisional isn't being used. You shouldn't be allowed to pick the "best" ball in any situation, in fact that's what most of the sticky rules are designed to avoid IMO, so I don't see how you have a ball in play, unless they just invented a rule to deal with the situation which I find surprising. Usually once things get out of hand it's "back to the tee box with ye!"

I'd expect the provisional is out of play, the player would be forced to abandonne the first, and would tee up again hitting 3 from the tee.

[Kiwi battler]

Pay to read entire thread W/W , we went off track from the original question , which is covered in Decision 27-11