Why don't PGA caddies use laser DURING A ROUND?

[hackzaw]

Is the use of lasers during a round in the PGA actually illegal?

When the caddies walk the course before the round, they'd be using a laser for sure to fill in they're yardage book, right?

Anyone else think laser should be allowed on tour? Seems to me like it would speed things up a bunch, and even level the playing field that much more.

What if part of Tiger's success is because he has an unbelievable caddie? Don't get me wrong.... Tiger would probably still win if he was carrying the bag himself. I just don't understand why you don't see lasers in the hands of caddies (which must mean it's not permitted).

[Kilroy]

That's correct. It was only a few years ago they were allowed for official handicapping. Last year even the local OVGA events still didnt allow them. Not sure about this year.

[marcf]

I don't know what to say about the PGA tour question, it seems to me like it is a non starter if they have charted the course in their yardage books already, so why would they need lasers?

In the dicussion about amateurs, especially in Class A and above (provincial, RCGA), it has been proven that the use of range finders actually slows down the rounds, instead of speeds it up...don't kill the messenger, I am just passing on what an RCGA official has told me. It will be a long time before they are allowed into competition on a standard rule, instead of the needed / allowed local rule per event. We ran into a problem last year during OVGA intersectionals last summer when one of the player's caddies in my group was using one, and when I called him on it, they said it was legal. I had to explain the rule to them, and I was nice enough to let them off the hook, as long as they stopped using it. Should have cost him 3 holes, I ended up losing the match 1 up on #18. Still kicking myself for not protecting my other 2 competitors as well as myself and the field as I should have. Instead I wanted to be a good host since it was at my home club.

[Kilroy]

it has been proven that the use of range finders actually slows down the rounds, instead of speeds it up...

I don't buy that for an instant. I'd love to see the "proof".

I was nice enough to let them off the hook

If you agreed to waive a rule then you both should have been disqualified. Sorry, don't shoot the messenger.

1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules
Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.

Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-3: Match play — Disqualification of both sides; Stroke play — Disqualification of competitors concerned.

[marcf]

Dan,

The proof? Well, kind of like WMD's in Iraq, not quite sure where or if. I was just relaying to you what I was told by a Rules official who works the Amateur National Championship events, the Cdn Open (Men's and womens), and I tend to trust him as I have known him since I was a teen. (Damn that feels like a long time ago).

ON the other matter,You are 100% correct, we actually had a long discussion about this in the middle of the 5th fairway, with the OVGA on site official, and I brought up the same point that actually all 4 of us would have to be DQ'd. He made the call not to do that, and asked the group if they were fine with the instruction of ceasing using it at that moment. If he was wrong, he was wrong, but if I hadn't tried to be the "nice guy" and applied the proper penalty, then I wouldn't have anything to talk about now...

I TOTALLY AGREE with you, but it is what it is...

[Kilroy]

I didn't expect you to be able to produce the proof.

The official should not have ruled that way. Being a stickler protects the field. Being a "nice guy" and looking the other way in a situation like that corrupts it.

[marcf]

Your right...it was actually out of character for me...oh well.

Oh, sorry for hi jacking the thread...back to PGA and Lasers...

[Indio]

I am of the opinion that if you have a good quality rangefinder and KNOW how to use it, then it should not slow down play (in fact should increase speed). But it is those golfers that purchase the cheap ones and/or don't know how to use it properly or shake so myh that they can't hit the target, then it will definitely slow down the group while they get a proper reading.

To show my point, I was playing with someone who had a rangefinder. I got to my ball and there just happened to be a marker within a couple of yards of my ball. I picked my club for the 103 yard shot. The person I was playing with yelled over to me that I had about 147 to the pin . Now I am an Idiot, not a fool. My half blind eyes told me that was impossible! I went with my selected club and had a putt for birdie (missed). The guy that called out the yardage for me went with his yardage and flew the green by at least 30 yards if not more .... ahh the wonders of placing blind faith in technlogy

[Kilroy]

People who are putz's will putz around, make mistakes and waste time. That's not the measuring device's fault, it's user error. If I were 100 yrds from the green and my rangefinder said 150, I'd notice that it was wacked and assume it's measuring the trees behind the green. I'd re-measure in only a few seconds and on we go.

Granted, if you happen to be standing on a sprinkler head, that's quicker but the rangefinder used properly is way faster than pacing yardages. GPS is much faster even than that.

[MusicMan]

same reason they dont have traction control anymore in F1 cars..... takes away from the sport. makes things too easy. especially golf being a traditional sport technology is usually frownd upon....

[BC MIST]

Range finders speed up play and that is a no brainer.

In a discussion I had with an OVGA official about use of RF's in OVGA tournaments, it was agreed that they would certainly speed up play, but since the governing body of the OVGA, Golf Quebec, does not allow them, neither will the OVGA. This issue will be brought up again, fairly soon.

The Golf Association of Ontario, GAO, allows the use of RF's in their competitions and good for them in seeing the light. Slow play is a major problem in some OVGA tournaments and using RF's may help alleviate some of this.

Regarding the Intersectionals and the use of the RF:
1. telling your opponent that the RF was not allowed should have been done between holes, to avoid the agreement to waive rule penalty.
2. when your opponent breaks a rule, it IS acceptable, under the rules, to allow him to do so as long as there is no agreement to waive the rule. However, if an official sees a rule being broken and even if you were not going to say anything, the official is obligated to call your opponent.
3. the on site official ruled incorrectly. However, even if he IS wrong, you are obligated to follow his ruling at that time. Or, you could have made a CLAIM, but for that hole only. The improper use of the RF on the holes before you made the comment to the opponent, could not have been used against him. While there is nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" under the circumstances, be the nice guy between holes, to avoid further problems.

Keep in mind that the officials for OVGA Interesectional matches are not necessarily rules officials. As there are 16 SECTIONS that need to be supervised, many volunteers are obviously needed and having someone present who knows the rules is not always possible and so poor rulings are sometimes made. Is is what it is, as you said.

It is my understanding that the OVGA is in need of more rules officials. Gerry was added to their list last year and did several tournaments, I will do several more this year and perhaps Dan and LobWedge can get involved this season, as well, to complete their L2 qualifications.

[marcf]

Interesting topic...

I do agree with what both BC and Dan are saying, and have zero problems with that. A couple of things though...

I have played the competively since I was 13 so I know when to bring the issue up and it was between holes. The group collectively decided we had to have a decision made by the on site official (who I know isn't necessarily a rules official, but it is their job to moderate and instruct at that time).

"3. the on site official ruled incorrectly. However, even if he IS wrong, you are obligated to follow his ruling at that time."

This is exactly the framework I was playing under, and I knew I was correct to do so. When the discussion happened and we all agreed (with help from the onsite official), the issue was forgotton, the RF taken out of play, and we all moved on to play some very exciting matches where most of them came down to the 18th hole.

I personally go out of my way in each and every event and thank the volunteers for allowing us to have great competitive events to play in. I recognize the time commitment and effort put in by them and will always be in their debt.

Maybe RF's will alleviate slow play, but that implies everyone has them. Not everyone wants to spend $350.00 on a good laser range finder, to use in 4 events per year. It would take some time before any noticeable time change would happen. I played in a GAO event last year, which allowed range finders, and there was no noticeable difference in time. Players just have to pick it up, walk a little quicker and pay attention. I have been in groups put on the clock, but got my ass back into position within a hole and a bit.

All in all, and interesting event and great discussion.

[Kilroy]

Maybe RF's will alleviate slow play, but that implies everyone has them. Not everyone wants to spend $350.00 on a good laser range finder, to use in 4 events per year.

I don't think everyone would want one. Nor will everyone shell out for a Goretex rain suit, but those who do may have an advantage if it rains.

[Kilroy]

Moving this to "Rules"...

[hackzaw]

I enjoy watching golf on TV. But it drives me crazy, when I see caddies and players pacing off distances. I figured it was illegal to use a laser RF which is why you don't see them.

Maybe this is a silly question but, if RF's weren't illegal, what % of players would use it?

The yardage books wouldn't go away for the detail of the green. But, come on... for the PGA tour, if the RF's were permitted, would we see a huge difference in scoring. Is the USGA trying to protect the integrity of the game by restricting their use? I think they're going on pretty accurate information, only because they know the pin positions, and have the yardage books.

You know what would be really intersting to find out (at least for me), is a comparison of the actual yardage from ball to pin versus the distance the caddie and player have determined. In other words, when a shot comes up 5 yards short, how much of that error was contributed by an inaccurate perceived distance?

[AAA]

I figured it was illegal to use a laser RF which is why you don't see them.

They are legal providing the relevant Local Rule is in force.

[Baxter]

I enjoy watching golf on TV. But it drives me crazy, when I see caddies and players pacing off distances. I figured it was illegal to use a laser RF which is why you don't see them.

You know what would be really intersting to find out (at least for me), is a comparison of the actual yardage from ball to pin versus the distance the caddie and player have determined. In other words, when a shot comes up 5 yards short, how much of that error was contributed by an inaccurate perceived distance?

Agree...Question...When watching it on TV..and they have the guys out on the course with the PGA group...How are these guy getting the yardage to the Pin to let us know at home?
Is it being sent to them from the TRUCK or are they getting the yardage from the Caddies? I know the caddies show how many fingers/tell what club is being hit.
The in booth guys have the information sent to them but I wonder about the others???

[Colby]

I enjoy watching golf on TV. But it drives me crazy, when I see caddies and players pacing off distances. I figured it was illegal to use a laser RF which is why you don't see them.

Maybe this is a silly question but, if RF's weren't illegal, what % of players would use it?

The yardage books wouldn't go away for the detail of the green. But, come on... for the PGA tour, if the RF's were permitted, would we see a huge difference in scoring. Is the USGA trying to protect the integrity of the game by restricting their use? I think they're going on pretty accurate information, only because they know the pin positions, and have the yardage books.

You know what would be really intersting to find out (at least for me), is a comparison of the actual yardage from ball to pin versus the distance the caddie and player have determined. In other words, when a shot comes up 5 yards short, how much of that error was contributed by an inaccurate perceived distance?

The yardage books that the guys on tour are nothing like the ones that you can buy at a course for $5. They are professionaly done and annotated by the pros and their caddies during the practice rounds and previous years of playing the course. These guys know what they are looking for and have all of their reference points marked out exactly!

Check these out for examples:

http://www.caddybytes.com/TPC_Stadiu...icture.htm.htm
http://www.caddybytes.com/new_page_93.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...52/ai_79352526

[mberube]

Agree...Question...When watching it on TV..and they have the guys out on the course with the PGA group...How are these guy getting the yardage to the Pin to let us know at home?
Is it being sent to them from the TRUCK or are they getting the yardage from the Caddies? I know the caddies show how many fingers/tell what club is being hit.
The in booth guys have the information sent to them but I wonder about the others???

The used to have volunteers paste the yardage before the players got the there ball. I guess the next step was the RF used by the volunteers but now I think it’s done by satellite.

Mike

[Colby]

Mike,

It's the shotlink system. They have laser rangefinders calibrated and placed in exact spots along the edge of the course. When they point the laser at something, they know exactly how far it is from the tee, etc. For example, when I was marshelling at Winchester Country Club during the Buick, Tiger plugged his drive in the fairway on 18, since I was up in the landing area, I walked over to the shotlink guy and asked him how far Tiger's drive went, he pointed the gun at the crater the ball had left and said that it had carried 285 when it plugged. It was really cool technology! And that was 6 years ago, it's got to be better now, although with satelitte (GPS) they would have to be right by the ball to make it work properly.

http://www.shotlink.com/Tour/WebTemp...xpandSection=1

[mberube]

Mike,

It's the shotlink system. They have laser rangefinders calibrated and placed in exact spots along the edge of the course. When they point the laser at something, they know exactly how far it is from the tee, etc. For example, when I was marshelling at Winchester Country Club during the Buick, Tiger plugged his drive in the fairway on 18, since I was up in the landing area, I walked over to the shotlink guy and asked him how far Tiger's drive went, he pointed the gun at the crater the ball had left and said that it had carried 285 when it plugged. It was really cool technology! And that was 6 years ago, it's got to be better now, although with satelitte (GPS) they would have to be right by the ball to make it work properly.

http://www.shotlink.com/Tour/WebTemp...xpandSection=1

You're absolutely right. I remember at the Rider Cup last year. I was about 5 feet from the shotlink guy on the first par 5 when Tiger hit driver off the deck 292 carry. Very cool. I don’t know why I forgot that.

Mike