Another rules quiz question

[gbower]

This is the question:

"In stroke play, a player's ball strikes a tree and comes to rest within the teeing ground of the hole being played. He presses down some heavy grass that is growing behind his ball before he plays. What is the ruling?"

I thought there would be a 2 stroke penalty for improving the lie but according to the answer they give there is no penalty as it is on the teeing ground and you can improve it whether the ball is in play or not. They refer to decision 13-2/2 which is a different case and I can't seem to find any reference after you have hit your tee shot.
What am I missing?????

[gbower]

Here's another one that got me with the wording.

"Any temporary accumulation of water on the course which is visible before or after a player has taken his stance is casual water."

I answered true and was wrong because I didn't read it exactly as in the book. grrrrrr

[Kiwi battler]

Dont assume the answers given are always correct , the data entry guy / software is only human / manmade

[LobWedge]

This is the question:

"In stroke play, a player's ball strikes a tree and comes to rest within the teeing ground of the hole being played. He presses down some heavy grass that is growing behind his ball before he plays. What is the ruling?"

I thought there would be a 2 stroke penalty for improving the lie but according to the answer they give there is no penalty as it is on the teeing ground and you can improve it whether the ball is in play or not. They refer to decision 13-2/2 which is a different case and I can't seem to find any reference after you have hit your tee shot.
What am I missing?????

I don't think you're missing anything here. 13-2/2 is just being used as a reference to the part of 13-2 that reads, "However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs...in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground..."

I see it as a reinforcement of the fact that the area defined by the width of your tee markers by two clublengths deep, on the hole you're playing, always has that special status, regardless of of whether you started there, or whether your ball ends up back in that area after you have made a stroke, or strokes. It's further supported by the definition of Through the Green.

"Through the green" is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and
b. All hazards on the course.

[Kilroy]

Hey you wrote that so well it makes it quite clear!

[AAA]

Hey you wrote that so well it makes it quite clear!

Actually Lobwedge wrote the question.

[mpare]

Am I correct in assuming that I would not be permitted to eliminate irregularities on a tee before I made my next stroke , if that was not the hole I was playing? It seems to me that 13-2/2 would not apply in such a case, because the "teeing ground" is defined as the "starting place for the hole to be played." If I was playing another hole and pushed a shot onto a tee for a different hole, then this area cannot be considered a "teeing ground" for me, as it was not the starting place for the hole that I was actually playing.

[BC MIST]

Am I correct in assuming that I would not be permitted to eliminate irregularities on a tee before I made my next stroke , if that was not the hole I was playing? It seems to me that 13-2/2 would not apply in such a case, because the "teeing ground" is defined as the "starting place for the hole to be played." If I was playing another hole and pushed a shot onto a tee for a different hole, then this area cannot be considered a "teeing ground" for me, as it was not the starting place for the hole that I was actually playing.

From LW's post and the definitions. "Through the green" is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and
b. All hazards on the course.

Logically then, the teeing ground and the putting green of a hole not being played, would be "through the green?" But, if my ball lands on a wrong putting green, I MUST remove it.

[mpare]

Since there is no requirement to remove the ball from a teeing ground, I should simply play away as if I were hitting a shot through the green. Agreed?

... Logically then, the teeing ground and the putting green of a hole not being played, would be "through the green?" But, if my ball lands on a wrong putting green, I MUST remove it.

[LobWedge]

Hey you wrote that so well it makes it quite clear!

I seem to recall a phrase containing the words "blind squirrel" and "nut"...

[LobWedge]

Since there is no requirement to remove the ball from a teeing ground, I should simply play away as if I were hitting a shot through the green. Agreed?

That is correct.

[BC MIST]

Here's another one that got me with the wording.

"Any temporary accumulation of water on the course which is visible before or after a player has taken his stance is casual water."

I answered true and was wrong because I didn't read it exactly as in the book. grrrrrr

This is the one I brought up at one of discussion group sessions as, at first glance, I did not see the obvious as well.

I wonder why they did not include the word "during" in the definition because if water is NOT visible before or after taking a stance but IS visible during, it is still casual water, and would prevent you and I from making a dumb mistake.

[Kilroy]

"Casual water" is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and is visible before or after the player takes his stance. Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player. Manufactured ice is an obstruction. Dew and frost are not casual water.
A ball is in casual water when it lies in or any part of it touches the casual water.

OK so those 2 questions are answered in the definition of Casual water. but I don't see what you mean by this BCMist... How does the omssion of "during" affect the answer?

I wonder why they did not include the word "during" in the definition because if water is NOT visible before or after taking a stance but IS visible during, it is still casual water, and would prevent you and I from making a dumb mistake

[LobWedge]

I believe the mistake in this case would be the possible flooding of your shoes, or sinking into the turf. If this is what he means, then I am with BC on this one.

[Kilroy]

The way I learned the "rule of thumb" was "If water gathers around your shoes when setting up to the ball."

BC:
I don't think there is a "during" that would apply to the taking of your stance. After taking your stance, the puddles would form around your feet, just before (or as) you address the ball.

So if you see water on the ground before or after you plant your feet...

"Casual water" is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and is visible before or after the player takes his stance.

[AAA]

The concept of 'during' is redundant.
If there is water before you have started or after you have finished taking your stance but before you make your stroke, that is sufficient.

[BC MIST]

The concept of 'during' is redundant.
If there is water before you have started or after you have finished taking your stance but before you make your stroke, that is sufficient.

I was just thinking of the possible occasion, rare as it may be, when I know the turf is spongy but no water is visible,(before) in placing my feet on the ground taking my stance,(during) water appears, but when my feet are in place, (after) none is. No??

[GarthM]

I suppose in theory this is possible. When you are taking your stance, for the briefest moment in time the majority of your weight may be on one foot, causing water to be visible, however when you place your second foot and distribute your weight as you setup, the water may not be visible.

Question is, does it make a difference in the application of the rule?

[AAA]

BC
Good point. I would suggest that when you are in the process of taking your stance you are in effect doing what dec 25/4 describes and therefore no relief is available unless the water is already visible or when visible you have finished shuffling around.

[BC MIST]

BC
Good point. I would suggest that when you are in the process of taking your stance you are in effect doing what dec 25/4 describes and therefore no relief is available unless the water is already visible or when visible you have finished shuffling around.

In the past, and without knowing the complete definition of casual water, I have seen golfers who will hear the "squish" of water under their feet, and then either press their feet firmly into the ground and claim casual water, or by just walking in the area where the stance is going to be taken, water becomes visible by their shoes when they take a step, and again claim casual water.

This is similar to when one is on walking the putting green, the squish is obvious and water is seen at the base of the shoes. Or, when tapping the sole of the putter on the green, water is splashed. Still, there would be no relief because, by definition, water is not visible before or after the stance is taken. It would seem then that some of us have been too generous in allowing/taking relief in the past when these particular conditions exist. So simply, no puddle, no relief. Hmmm. Some golfers are going to get cranky.

GB - One for Men's Night

[gbower]

I couldn't get back earlier as I lost my internet access down here. The part of the casual water that I think I missed was if the accumulation is in a hazard that didn't previously have water.

[AAA]

GB
Can you expand on that ?

[gbower]

The definition of casual water is any temp accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and the way the question was they didn't have "not in a water hazard" and therefore I picked the wrong answer.

[AAA]

OK. Understood