Dancin Dogg Golf Simulator

[Marine1]

Because i get a building and a sim, my wife wants to turn our garage into a gameroom for her and her friends, but im not allowed to mention the sim anymore to her, so thanks for listening guys. Sorry, bubba22, ive researched so many golf sims that they are all starting to run together in my mind. Right now im just focused on dd, ive got no input. By the way, I got to play golf today. It got up to the 50's and I beat our club pro for the first time today. Was a good day! Has anyone had any problems with running dd with windows 7 64bit? Does anyone use a short throw projector? One more question, am I going to want a computer monitor for my sim or will the projection screen be sufficient? Thanks guys.

[bubba22]

DD should work with windows 7. I use a laptop and have image on projector and laptop screen. Great to beat the pro. Real golf is much better than the simulator.
I agree there are lots of sims out there.

[rdh]

Just saw a link to a system I've never heard of before. Has anyone heard of this one? http://foresightsports.com/

[Par2Pro]

Hey Guys,

I am falling behind on all of the posts - as I am getting ready to run the Closest to the Pin competition fundraiser at the Edmonton and Calgary PGA Shows....

Anyways, just a quick couple of notes that I saw:

1. I just ordered a budget short throw projector that will sell for about $699 - I am really excited to see what it can do for that price (it even will do the 3D movies at 1080p!!!) - the main problem is that there is no zoom, so you have to mount it at the perfect distance that you want. I am bringing this in to get setup with the new ST1 enclosure (so you can do 15' wide from about 12' away from the screen).

2. The Tiger Woods PC Version 2008 and before will work with the Optishot (DD) on Windows 7 (unlike the P3ProSwing). To run the Practice Zone go to your Start Menu>>Dancin' Dogg Golf>>OptiShot 2010>>OptiShot 2010 Practice Zone. In the Practice Zone main menu you will be able to select the run Tiger Woods option.

**You can't run it from the 3DD Golf Practice mode from the Practice Zone - I have had a few clients try this option and just bang thier heads against the wall .

3. rdh - good point about the DD making it easier for beginners to get going - the P3Pro has an "enable sweet spots penalty" option that I turn off when my wife plays and it has really helped her get into the game. I think that if DD added LA or got any more accurate and provided this option (with the default to easy), it would still make it usable for both types of users. I do know that they are really focused on developing more of the enjoyment side of the game as opposed to the analytics. We shall see though

4. balc - the computer requirements for the ST1 are what they recommend, I am trying to get a "Minimum requirements" and will do a few tests here as soon as I get it in. For now, I just got a quote from my computer guy on going the absolute basics with their requirements and it was just over $1000!!! This just does not bode well with me - if the ST1 costs under $2k most people (including myself) will not pay $1k for a computer to go with it. I will keep working on this and see what else I can come up with.

5. bubba - just a note that the ST1 will not measure "launch angle" - just horizontal azimuth angle (direction), spin and speed. It is still way better than just club measurements though.

6. rdh - did you find that ProTee is claiming DIRECT measurements of the LA or is their estimation? I have tried contacting them in the past and it has been rather difficult, I think I will try them again this summer and see what happens.

7. rdh - Martin of GGS and Neil of VSS are the only two guys who OWN the distribution rights for the GSA (red chain) software. Since they are the distributors, they can charge a lot less for the stuff and not lose any money. GolfTek had to buy the software from Martin (and I know as a reseller that Martin does not give out discounts freely), so GolfTek probably paid around that much and then had to pay for the time to integrate the software. I still think that you should make your money back on the cool interface that you made, so hopefully you & I can convince them to buy it from you.

Since I won't be able to get on here every day, if you have any specific questions, be sure to fire me an email at cory@par2pro.com.

Take care and if you are going to the Edm or Cgy PGA shows, stop by and say Hi!

Keep your eye on the ball,
Cory

[Par2Pro]

Hey rdh, just saw this post...

Yup, saw the Foresight Sports GC2 at the PGA show and tried it with the GSA courses - FANTASTIC!

Big problem is that it is a unit that sits beside you, so you have to physically move it for LH & RH players.

It is really accurate though and Nike is using it for their club demos/fitting. It is also really easy to use and you just put it down, drop the ball beside it, wait for the unit to sense it (a green light comes on or something like that) and hit.

Very cool and uses the high speed cameras for detection.

Kinda pricey though - I belive that it was around $10k.

I am actually just getting setup with them right now and working with a local instructor to try to get a system for him and one that we can use to demo. I'll keep you posted as things move forward.

Keep your eye on the ball,
Cory

[rdh]

The GC2 system looked like GSA Golf to me...but the menu buttons, etc. are different. It's the first time I've seen GSA Golf where someone actually changed those buttons...the other licensees (like P3Pro) generally change the logo in the top right but leave everything else as is. Interesting.

If it's in the $10K range then that puts it in the same range as the Golf Achiever I think, which is a similar product (but laser based rather than camera I believe) with the same limitations around right/left handed play. It does sound like a really good product from what you're saying though...this industry continues to evolve quickly. Maybe in a few years systems like that will be available at much lower prices...

[rdh]

Cory - you mention that VSS has distribution rights to the red chain software as well...I never realized that. I would think those guys (Martin and VSS) would have a lot of conflicts within the industry when they can both distribute it. There are strange structures in place with that software...

The ST1 software requirements must be because of GPS Golf...can anyone get clarification on that? If so, then I go back to what I said before...GSA Golf starts to become a much cheaper option if it costs less AND will run on lower end hardware. In my case I had trouble with GSA Golf on my older desktop machine originally, but a new video card was all I had to stick in to get it working (for $100 or so).

[Par2Pro]

Yup, I really like what they did with their buttons too - they said that they really wanted to make it as different as possible.

The Golf Acheiver starts at the $7k range and is not quite as accurate - I still have a problem with the hardware (unless you just want to use if for RH) as it is really difficult to move. Although they do now have a much better unit that is harder to break

[Par2Pro]

Yup, VSS though wanted distribution rights to protect it more than anything. I belive that they are not distributing it to anyone and are charging a premium price for "their version" of it.

Yup again - the GPS software is the culprit of the computer requirements, so there is not much of a workaround. From my testing (so far) the GSA and GPS sofwtare can almost run on the same computer - although the GPS seems to take a little more resources and longer course load times. I am trying to convince GolfTek that they need to incorporate the GSA software for the ST1 and they would have the best sim possible at that price - it is really hard though as the support seems to be an issue.

I'll keep pushing though

[rdh]

I wonder if the GC2 actually feeds its ball spin data into GSA Golf? I know that Martin's DLL (connector) for GSA Golf accepts inputs for ball speed, direction, launch, etc., but NOT spin. He said he'll be working on adding that later this year as he'll need it for his camera-based system as well.

[rdh]

I understand that support for GSA Golf may not be great, but frankly other than a few suggestions that I've emailed to red chain myself (to improve the product), I really haven't had any big issues at all that need support. One thing I did find though, is that their shot calculations DO seem to be off a bit (Golftek had mentioned that to me). All I did though, was add some compensation factors to my interface and now shots are coming up right in line with what I'd expect. I think Golftek really wanted to keep their integration program to a bare minimum, so on stuff like that they'd submit the problem back to red chain and then they'd be stuck waiting for a fix. Really that is the right approach (if the algorythms in the software are off, red chain SHOULD fix those) but in the interest of making the system work okay I didn't have a problem with putting some adjustments into my interface. If red chain adjusts their calculations in the future I'll just back those out if they're no longer needed.

GSA Golf is working very well for me anyway...

[Par2Pro]

Not sure of the ball spin in the GC2 - they said they are more focused on their proprietary numbers / stats program and just threw the GSA on there for the show. Not quite sure what that meant, but their market is more towards clubfitters and instructors.

As far as GSA goes, if Red Chain would just distribute and support drectly, I think that we would have ourselves one hell'uv'a system

I'm really glad that it is working for you. I am really looking forward to playing with the ST1 - who knows, I may love the software more than the GSA LOL!

[rdh]

I may already be set up with the Pro 7 and GSA Golf, but I'm still really interested to hear how both the ST-1 and GPS Golf are once you (and balc) get them. I love following this stuff.

Excellent point on red chain...I think if they had gone the direct sales route they could have a lot more sales out there. I think some of the confusion and support challenges in their distribution network are holding them back...

[bubba22]

I spoke with Bud today from golftek and in fact the st1 will not estimate the launch angle. Therefore a thin shot will not be represented well on the st1. Cory what is the cheapest sim that gives a reasonable estimation of the launch angle and represents that in the simulated ball flight. Is it the pro7, or is it the p3pro coupled with the launch webcam. I know you said it was not perfect to set up but how well does the p3pro and the webcam simulate thin shots, shanks, topped shots etc. For me I want to know when theses shots happen

[js1010]

Great find, RDH - I emailed Foresight Sports about their CG2 unit and got some interesting info back.

I first asked about accuracy and got this..

"Our stereoscopic ball tracking system measures all launch data, so the representation of ball flight virtually is the very best in the industry.

Our unit takes between 10 and 12 high res images of the ball after impact so that it knows the exact ball speed, vertical launch angle, horizontal launch angle (this is the key to reproducing exact ball path) backspin and side spin (these are the crucial elements to knowing curvature). The intended ball path is 18” in front of the GC2 and on a 90 degree angle from the front face of the GC2. Our range software has a target line for your reference.

What’s best about our system is that it is verifiable accurate. In other words, you can take our system to the range and hit shots and see the actual ball flight and compare it to the virtual flight-or to the data that is used to create virtual ball flight. Once you see how accurate the unit is, you then can use it indoors with complete confidence.

Our unit has been tested head to head against Trackman and Science Eye (used by the USGA). Our numbers are almost identical to theirs. In fact, we think our information is better than Trackman and Science Eye after observing the tests first hand."


I then replied back asking for price and was told


"Our unit with one golf course and the Learning Center is $6495.00. This unit will give you all the ball measurements, along with estimated Club head speed. It also has full course play, contests and on-course practice mode. You can add golf courses for $125 each whenever you desire. We offer 51 courses at this time.

The course play is amazing, right down to the putting. You can put all the way into the hole if you desire."

[Par2Pro]

Bubba - the lowest cost for a sim with LA is the P3Pro with their webcam version, but it is not easy to setup, nor have I found it to be extremely accurate. However, a combination of a Vector and ST1 would be great if you are willing to sacrifice the visuals (which I know you said you weren't really looking for) or if you want everything all in one, the Pro7 is the choice. GGS has their LA options, but I have never tried any of them.

[Par2Pro]

js1010 - by the time that you add up the courses that comes with the full GSA (31), the price of this system sits around thr $10k mark. It is still a very cool system that you can add courses as your budget allows.

I have uploaded the show special brochure here so everyone can see the pricing:
http://www.par2pro.com/downloads/FSPGA10.pdf

Hopefully this helps. I will be adding this to our new online store this summer

I am really not so sure about the statement that they are as accurate or more accurate than the Trackman system - when I was at the PGA show, the club manufacturers were using Trackman for a reason (but that is why the price for a full blown trackman is $28k!!!)

I believe that indoors the GC2 would definitely be more accurate if you do not have the 14' of space between the ball and the screen needed for radar to be effective (it is most effective reading from hit to lye).

One day I will get a chance to use ONE standard robot and test all of these sims and analyzers - then post the results in an unbiased manner so that everyone can make their own conclusions. Again, I am dreaming for now, but will make every attempt to do so one day. The problem would be what to set the robot standard to

[psace]

Hmmm, very juicy information here. First of all, DD is very exceptional for the price tag and free courses. However, I hate the simulator turf. I might as well hit off of my garage cement floor! Please upgrade the turf, DD.

The new sim talked about here looks very impressive, at first glance. I like the portability of it, versus most camera based sims. Does it measure clubhead data, such as path, speed, contact? I would still want this data.

I am excited to try out the Brush T balls tonight. Thus far I can't decide whether I like real balls or almost balls better. Hopefully, they will be the perfect ball.

[rdh]

I find the CG2 unit very intriguing. If it is as accurate as they say, and considering that it captures spin data, I very likely would have went with it rather than the Pro 7. Again, that's on the assumption that it works as well as they say. It's not that I'm unhappy with the Pro 7, but with the simple setup of this device, and it being a similar price to the Pro 7, it would have been a great option. Considering the amount I spent to get track lighting installed and build platforms to house the Pro 7, all of which could have been avoided with the CG2, I might have made a different decision in hindsight. Again, ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT IT IS CORRECT.

Notice that I said it's a similar price to the Pro 7. From the info above, it looks to be a lot more expensive when you add in all 46 courses I got for $2K. I have a hard time supporting a company charging that much for the courses when I know that they get the software for a LOT less, and when I know that other companies sell the same thing for a lot less. BUT...the thing with GSA Golf is that you simply put new course files into the courses folder on the hard drive, and it immediately recognizes them and they're available. So...there's nothing I can see that would stop someone from buying the CG2 with one course, then buying the full 46 course package for GSA Golf directly from GGS Systems for $999 and just putting all the courses in that folder. Unless the CG2 folks have done something REALLY fancy to prevent courses from being added that way, it looks like a simple way to get $5,000 worth of courses (at CG2's pricing) for $999. I don't see how it would be illegal or anything either...it's not like you're illegally copying files you didn't buy. You're just buying the same files from another source for a lower price. I can't see their $125 per course pricing holding up once people look into it and realize this is an option...

Anyway, it's a very interesting product. I'd love to hear some feedback on it if any of you go that route (and if you're now looking at options above the ST-1 to get launch angle, then the Pro 7 or CG2 look like two of the best possibilities).

[rdh]

That's a good point on the club readings psace. You've actually made me rethink my last posting a bit as I wasn't thinking of that aspect. The CG2 only reads the ball, so it may be incredibly accurate at showing you WHAT the ball did and WHY...but the "WHY" is only from the ball perspective. i.e. "it flew this way because it started in this direction at this launch angle, and had this height." But as for the root cause (club face angle vs. club path, club speed vs. solid hit factor) you'd be guessing. For game improvement the club sensor aspect is huge. But for realistic simulation, the CG2 might be among the best options around (again, if we buy their sales pitch on it!).

[bubba22]

I agree about the club analysis. You will lose that with the CG2. I just spoke with the folks at Forsight golf about the CG2 and it seems like a good product. They were not sure if it would work with any limited flight balls however. Looks awesome though.

RDH are you saying that the courses for the CG2 are GSA? And one could buy the courses from GGS at 999 and use them for the CG2. Am I hearing this right?

[bubba22]

Cory, why is the p3pro launch angle webcam not easy to set up? How accurate is it, for example if you hit a thin shot with 1 degree launch does it show a worm burner? Does it miss every second shot hit? Why is it so expensive if it is just a logitech cam and dongle?

[rdh]

That's what I'm saying - they are using GSA Golf as their software (under their own branding). Whether CG2 has done anything fancy to block the ability to just "drop in" new course files, that I don't know. Although that should all be handled right within the executable file for the software, so I don't know how they could block it. Someone would have to try it to know for sure.

[bubba22]

Interesting!!! RDH that is exactly why I love this thread. Always quality information.

[rdh]

Well, if anyone goes that route and it works, then the thread had some big value (saving $4K would be pretty huge!). The same approach should work for any of the other companies using GSA Golf as well. I know P3ProSwing charges a lot for augusta and the pebble beach pack, so there would probably be cheaper options to look at there too (although their base package is 31 courses I think and that carries a large cost already).

[psace]

How about DD & CG2 combined?

[Par2Pro]

I just got word from GolfTek that they are shipping out our ST1's either late today or first thing tomorrow!!! WOOO HOO!

[Par2Pro]

psace - John from CDG is working on a divot action top for the DD - I hope that he can make it work, it should be a fantastic alternative to that velcro top

[rdh]

If any of you are talking to the CG2 folks (or maybe this is on their website somewhere), it would be interesting to know what maximum launch angle it can handle. i.e. once you exceed X degrees, does it fail to pick up the shot?

I'd be interested to hear how much the P3 Pro web cam has trouble reading shots. Even my Pro 7 fails to pick up the launch angle on maybe 1 in 15 shots (in which case it registers a 60 degree launch angle that I've accommodated through my interface). If you hit a ball sharply right or left, the frequency of reading failures increases. Overall I'm very happy with how well it does, but again I don't think any of these technologies are perfect (maybe someday though!).

[rdh]

Very cool suggestion psace. That's what I always said - the ideal setup would be a club sensor for the feedback you need to improve your swing, along with a camera system for very accurate shot depiction. The DD (or some similar device) + CG2 would be a great combination for that! Once the DD has better turf options anyway...

Exciting stuff on the ST-1 Cory - we'll all be eagerly awaiting the reviews! Any word from Golftek on how the new GPS software looks?