Etiquette at the pro level

[el tigre]

With the recent spirited discussion on etiquette, I though I would point out these two related articles in the October issue of Golf Digest about an etiquette "incident" with Michelle Wie at the LPGA US Open:

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...00310diaz.html

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...0310diaz2.html

The articles make the following points:

1) Even at the professional level, not all players know all the "rules" of etiquette and there are differences of opinion as to what constitutes a "breach of etiquette".

2) Tour veterans use "breaches of etiquette" to intimidate tour rookies in an attempt to "put them in their place".

Doesn't sound all that different that what happens at the amateur level. I'd never heard of a "through line" before - but then neither had Jack Nicklaus!

[Farzin]

1) Even at the professional level, not all players know all the "rules" of etiquette and there are differences of opinion as to what constitutes a "breach of etiquette".

2) Tour veterans use "breaches of etiquette" to intimidate tour rookies in an attempt to "put them in their place".

Doesn't sound all that different that what happens at the amateur level. I'd never heard of a "through line" before - but then neither had Jack Nicklaus!

Long live el tigre,
Couldn't have said it better any other way.

[NoBack]

In the simplest terms, the through-line is the projected path of a hypothetical return putt (see accompanying graphic below). For the most part, it extends about three feet beyond the hole, but it depends on the putt. Though an uphill eight-footer probably doesn't get assigned a through-line, a downhill 12-footer on the ninth green at Augusta National might have one extending 15 feet.

Through-line etiquette is not a rule, it's a courtesy, and as such does not really come with instructions. Those who breach the standard usually get straightened out gently. But grizzled vets have been known to use the occasion to intimidate.

Isnt that what etiquette is in the first place??? Being curtious to your fellow competitor???

Now if the rest of it is true (which seems likely because of the third party (Hanson) confirming this about the whole year), the father putting the bag in her line, not taking out the flag and walking around the green while she is getting ready for her putt, over celebrating; then yes they should know.

This is the US Open and to make it there one would think you would have played in many many tournaments that you must know the etiquette used and have respect for the other player. Even at 13 you have been playing in sectionals and amateur events, playing against the best players, you would have learned alot already. If its her father that doesnt know, replace him, which he has done already. So maybe now Michelle Wie will learn.

Just an opinion here.

[Farzin]

Isnt that what etiquette is in the first place??? Being curtious to your fellow competitor???

A 35 year old who has been a veteran of the game for 15 years, doesn't shake 13 year old Wie's hand after the round is over and leaves the green before she putts out,,,, I think that's being snub and sucks , and has nothing to do with golfing and golf etiquette.

[Rough Stuff]

... I think that's being snub and sucks , and has nothing to do with golfing and golf etiquette.

I think its a little of both. From what I've heard, read and seen from interviews, the father was not well versed in the etiquette (this came from more than one source). At the professional level, this shouldn't be happening. Her father was smart to remove himself. He was foolish to say there was a shoving match. It's been solved, and its not likely to continue. The through line thing? Seems overly precaustious (don't forget the through-through-line and the through-through-through line), but like all the points brought up in OUR etiquette discussions: What's the harm in accepting and respecting the concept. Answer: none.

And Hanifi, there is something sadly missing in our society that was schooled into me when I was young: respect should automatically be given to elders, whether you think they are fools or not.

[Andru]

And Hanifi, there is something sadly missing in our society that was schooled into me when I was young: respect should automatically be given to elders, whether you think they are fools or not.

It's not society that has changed, it's you. You're not the first to feel this way and you certainly won't be the last.

[el tigre]

the father was not well versed in the etiquette (this came from more than one source). At the professional level, this shouldn't be happening. Her father was smart to remove himself.

In this particular instance, I think you are right. He should not have been her caddie, but Michelle was obviously it a difficult position. It would be difficult for a 13-year-old girl to tell her FATHER that he's fired - or that he couldn't be her caddie in the first place. In the player/caddie relationship, the player is supposed to be the boss.

I was more interested in the discussions around the "through line" than the particular incident with Michelle. What I found interesting is that even at the professional level there are differences of opinion about what constitutes proper etiquette because it "does not really come with instructions". Also interesting was the fact that the "rules of etiquette" are changing and evolving. My favourite line in the article was by Jack Nicklaus: "The only place I ever take an imaginary line is to the bottom of the hole."

[Rough Stuff]

It's not society that has changed, it's you. You're not the first to feel this way and you certainly won't be the last.

Society's not changing? Really? Well sorry to hear that. Thanks for informing me, I was wondering. Funny how there is evidence all around me and based on my experiences and wisdom, I'm able to make a value judgement that says it is. Funny how the media and other reflections of society (books, movies, plays) have changed. Funny how behaviours in schools, public areas, etc., have changed. Odd that there is endless evidence to the contrary...

How about meeting half way? I am changing and so is society.

The idea that a veteran who has paid his/her dues should HAVE to pay respect to a 13 year old (because she is younger) is ABSURD. Should she behave that way to a younger person? Probably not, because we teach by our actions. Does she owe Michelle Wie respect? Yes, because everyone deserves respect. Should she PAY respect because Wie is 13 and she's older? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You've got your cart before your horse.

Replace the veteran in this case with Tiger Woods (even though a veteran at 26/27 is an odd thing to say), or even your mom. If Tiger Woods (or your mom) was raising this complaint, would your opinion change? Probably. Would Tiger Woods have solved it differently? Probably. Does it mean the complaint doesn't have merit? No, it doesn't, the compaint still has merit.

You just don't respect this particular veteran/elder because you've never heard of her.

[Rough Stuff]

...I was more interested in the discussions around the "through line" than the particular incident with Michelle.

It was weird if not anal. I think you're right when you say it was intimidation. But isn't pro sports full of intimidation? More likely, she was looking for ANYTHING because she was pissed off about all the other things (the bag, the walking around, etc.). Haven't we all done that though? A whole bunch of other things piss us off, but we boil over at the next really insignificant thing...even though we wished we had complained about the major issue, but its too late.

Once Michelle Wie has more experience, she'll be able to ignore those golfers or tell them to piss off. I can't imagine Tiger Woods taking any flak from anyone, but I'll also bet he doesn't walk on anyone's through line. The only complaints that had merit in the incident seemed to be about the father's breach of etiquette.

[Andru]

Geez what's with all the drama. Look sure things have changed a little but your statement was this.

And Hanifi, there is something sadly missing in our society that was schooled into me when I was young: respect should automatically be given to elders, whether you think they are fools or not.

And I'm here to tell you it's not true; Kids still respect their elders and schools still teach children to do so. That hasn't changed. I don't really care what happens everywhere else.

Your feeling of. "Today's kids don't respect their elders" Is not a NEW notion. It happens to every generation. Once people get to a certain age they start feeling that way. I remember my parents saying "You kids today have no respect for your elders"..... And my Grandparents said it about my parents. and the kids today will say it about their kids.

[Rough Stuff]

I'm only being dramatic because I interpreted your comment as "Shut up, you're in idiot", and your comment about society not changing gave me ammunition to fire back.

.... And my Grandparents said it about my parents. and the kids today will say it about their kids.

Yes, I agree, but youre taking my statement globally when I meant it specifically about Hanifi's comment:

... 35 year old who has been a veteran of the game for 15 years, doesn't shake 13 year old Wie's hand after the round is over and leaves the green before she putts out...

This statement implies that the 35 year old should pay respect to Wie because she's 13 and inexperienced. That's bull and backwards. IF IT WAS NOT PROFESSIONAL, then I'd say the 35 year old should have taught her or explained to her in a rational way. But PROFESSIONAL anything assumes you've already learned that and its not the veterans job to teach her.

In this context, I think the veteran did it because Wie hadn't shown any respect (FROM HER PERSPECTIVE) all game long.

And I agree, that elder/youth statement will go on and on and on forever and ever, but like all statements and cliches, there's a grain of truth. From my perspective there is a noticeable difference between now and when I was younger. There is decreasing respect in our society (for all things, at all levels). An example is holding open a door for the person behind you: this happened a lot more when I was younger than it does today. Its a visible and measurable incident.

How many strangers said hello to you this morning? A lot more did when I was a kid.

These are valuable aspects of human behaviour. Are common courtesies (which is what etiquette is, as pointed out above) that hard to maintain?

[Andru]

I may have a been a little too categorical. I understand the context now. Sometimes you miss it when the thread runs so long.

But PROFESSIONAL anything assumes you've already learned that and its not the veterans job to teach her.

That's not really true I've heard stories from PGA touring pros about vets taking them under their wing and showing them the ropes. Mark O'Meara helped Tiger get adjusted to life on Tour. Brandel Chamblene told a story about Hal Sutton Showing him some of the etiquette rules on tour after the round, then took him for a beer.

I think there was a bit of jealousy involved here. Let's face it. Wie will probably never have to go to Q school and pay her dues. She'll sign a lucrative endorsement deal from the get go. She'll never have the REAL pressure of making a living on tour. Some of the vets resent this, who wouldn't It was her opportunity to slash out at Wie. If it was a problem she could have quietly said something while walking down the fairway. They spent 4 and half hours together.

[NoBack]

Rough Stuff............. i agree with you on this one.

This statement implies that the 35 year old should pay respect to Wie because she's 13 and inexperienced. That's bull and backwards. IF IT WAS NOT PROFESSIONAL, then I'd say the 35 year old should have taught her or explained to her in a rational way. But PROFESSIONAL anything assumes you've already learned that and its not the veterans job to teach her.

and on this one too...........

From my perspective there is a noticeable difference between now and when I was younger. There is decreasing respect in our society (for all things, at all levels). An example is holding open a door for the person behind you: this happened a lot more when I was younger than it does today. Its a visible and measurable incident.

How many of you called your buddies fathers by their first name??? I didnt and still dont at 42. My kids friends all call me by my first name, and have been for many years. Again, something I would never do. Times have changed..

As for this one from Andru.............

That's not really true I've heard stories from PGA touring pros about vets taking them under their wing and showing them the ropes. Mark O'Meara helped Tiger get adjusted to life on Tour. Brandel Chamblene told a story about Hal Sutton Showing him some of the etiquette rules on tour after the round, then took him for a beer.

I think thats the point, they probably didnt give the "vets" any flack and "respected" them and their words when told of their lack or unawareness of the etiquette.

[Colby]

Michelle is an amateur playing in professional events. She's only 13 and has she learned her attitude from her Dad. She's been told for years that she's the next big thing, and with the media attention, she's been put on a bit of a pedestal. With her Dad caddying for her, she was limited as to who could tell her things. It would have been far better to get an experienced caddy, I'm sure an equipment sponsor would have paid for the wages as part of a deal. An experienced caddy would help guide her around some of these landmines that exist when money and egos become a way of life.

Can anyone remember who was on Tiger's bag when he played the Master's and other pro tourneys as an amateur?

You don't see a lot of this when people join the tour, and one of the reasons, at least I think it plays a factor, is that the people have played golf in college, played in amateur tourneys for years, been through q school, and are generally 7-10 years older than Michelle.

Hopefully she can grow through this.

[NoBack]

You don't see a lot of this when people join the tour, and one of the reasons, at least I think it plays a factor, is that the people have played golf in college, played in amateur tourneys for years, been through q school, and are generally 7-10 years older than Michelle.

you got that right.

and I beleive it was "Fluff" on Tiger's bag.

[Andru]

No comment.

Just remember this conversation when your kids start saying the same things about their kids. That will be classic!


Cheers

[el tigre]

they probably didnt give the "vets" any flack and "respected" them and their words when told of their lack or unawareness of the etiquette

Steve, in the context of this particular incident with Michelle, I think you've gotten the facts mixed up and missed the point. There is no indication that Michelle herself gave anyone any "flack" or showed any "disrespect" to anyone when told of the "breach of etiquette" (that was her father). Michelle just didn't know any better - and when it comes to the "through line" stuff A LOT of golfers don't know any better.

But PROFESSIONAL anything assumes you've already learned that and its not the veterans job to teach her.

First of all, Michelle is not a PROFESSIONAL - she's an amateur that was invited to play at a professional event. Secondly, we are talking about a 13-year-old CHILD playing with adults. IMHO, a 37-year old adult trying to intimidate a 13-year-old kid is cowardly and unsportsmanlike, period. The COURTEOUS thing for Ammaccapone to do would be to have a quiet word with Michelle during the round. Finally, these are "unwritten" rules that are learned from experience - i.e., you learn them when you break them. According to the article, there are many golfers a lot older than Michelle who still didn't know EVERYTHING when they turned pro. Which was kinda my orginal point, actually.

[Farzin]

First of all, Michelle is not a PROFESSIONAL - she's an amateur that was invited to play at a professional event. Secondly, we are talking about a 13-year-old CHILD playing with adults. IMHO, a 37-year old adult trying to intimidate a 13-year-old kid is cowardly and unsportsmanlike, period. The COURTEOUS thing for Ammaccapone to do would be to have a quiet word with Michelle during the round. .

Well said El tigre

One gains respect before given any respect, regardless of age or being a pro or non pro. Ammaccapone, Miss pro in this case not only didn't gained any respect from kind of Michelle and the rest of the world but she also displayed how selfish and non professional one could be even though playing in a professional tour where role models play for likes of Michelle and thousands of other kids and adults who watch them.
It all boils to one's attitude which translates in golf to etiquette. Andrew please tell me if I am wrong.

[Rough Stuff]

I agree with all these points (amateur, jealousy, intimidation is a lame thing to do, etc.), and even this one:

One gains respect before given any respect, regardless of age or being a pro or non pro...

I submit that a veteran of 37 has gained the respect. Why was it not shown? The through line thing? Probably the icing on the cake. Clearly the problem was the father and that issue was solved. But to turn around and say "The veteran has a bad attitude" is crap.

When you've played in the sport for 20 years, or done anything for 20 years, and someone comes along and pisses you off, you gain the right to correct them. In this case, her method of correction (treating Wie poorly) is lame and unproductive. Does that mean the veteran's MOTIVES were wrong. No. Wie (and more accurately the team of Wie) was at fault and needed correction. Did it work? Yes, Wie's father is no longer caddying.

So Hanifi, ever stand up and let an older person take your seat on the bus, even though you don't know if they've gained your respect or not. I think I know the answer....

[NoBack]

el tigre .........

According to the article, there are many golfers a lot older than Michelle who still didn't know EVERYTHING when they turned pro. Which was kinda my orginal point, actually.

You are probably right about that but then again, the article pointed out more than just the "through line" in regards to Michelle and her father. This is NOT her first tournament. This is also not the first time she and her father have made these "mistakes". Granted to not shake hands is not right but then again maybe a point had to made, and now that it has been done, maybe it will help.


BTW........... She is not an ordinary 13 year old. She has probably played in more tournaments and hit more balls than I have in my 26 years playing golf. She also may indeed be an amateur, but she and her father should have more respect for the other players after all the years they have put in.

She did not just get invited because she has a nice swing or that it was only a marketing gimmick to attract a crowd. She has game, she has won tournaments before and will win alot more of them.

[Andru]

She did not just get invited because she has a nice swing or that it was only a marketing gimmick to attract a crowd. She has game, she has won tournaments before and will win alot more of them.

You mean like the US Girls Junior Amateur or the US Womens Amateur. Oh yeah she didn't win those. Exactly what has she done to deserve an exemption a professional tour event?

She was invited for the same reasons Annika was invited. To sell tickets and draw eye balls to the television. That's it. She's also an IMG prodigy don't overlook the palm greasing happening in the background.

[Rough Stuff]

Having been one of those people with my eyes glued to the set to watch Michelle Wie (and Annika), I'll bet on Wie. I'm willing to bet she'll be kicking ass (if she continues with golf) by the time she's competing...in the men's tour.

[Andru]

Having been one of those people with my eyes glued to the set to watch Michelle Wie (and Annika), I'll bet on Wie. I'm willing to bet she'll be kicking ass (if she continues with golf) by the time she's competing...in the men's tour.

I'm one of those people as well. She'll be competing on the mens tour no doubt. It will be interesting to see. She's going to plateau physically though.

We'll have a good gauge on her in about 5 years when she hits 18. Dont' forget. She gets a lot of press. There's a slew of young boys coming up that don't receive the same amount of publicity. Let's face it no one had heard of Tiger until he won his 3rd US amateur title. Also I've seen some of the top junior amateurs and they all drive it 270-300 yards.

It should be interesting.

[Rough Stuff]

Do you think Tiger will be replaced? Tiger seems (and seemed) exceptional, but when you see the caliber coming up, it looks like he might have competition. On the other hand, Tiger seems to have it all (when he's shooting his A game)...even Ernie Els said he's seen Tiger make shots that he couldn't make. An impressive compliment.

Then again, this year was very un-Tiger like...as if his mind is elsewhere.

[Colby]

Do you think Tiger will be replaced? Tiger seems (and seemed) exceptional, but when you see the caliber coming up, it looks like he might have competition. On the other hand, Tiger seems to have it all (when he's shooting his A game)...even Ernie Els said he's seen Tiger make shots that he couldn't make. An impressive compliment.

Then again, this year was very un-Tiger like...as if his mind is elsewhere.

un-Tiger like because he didn't win a major? He won 5 times including two World Championship events (or whatever they are called) His scoring stats are also very good:

Putting - 5th
Eagles - 1st
Birdie Average - 2nd
Scoring - 1st
Money List - 1st (over 6 million)
Top 10s - 3rd (11 with 5 wins)

It's going to take someone very special to knock this 27 year old off of his tower.

[Big_duck]

un-Tiger like because he didn't win a major? He won 5 times including two World Championship events (or whatever they are called) His scoring stats are also very good:

Putting - 5th
Eagles - 1st
Birdie Average - 2nd
Scoring - 1st
Money List - 1st (over 6 million)
Top 10s - 3rd (11 with 5 wins)

It's going to take someone very special to knock this 27 year old off of his tower.

First there was the Tiger Slam ... Now the Tiger Slump

[Colby]

First there was the Tiger Slam ... Now the Tiger Slump

I'm not a big fan of Tiger, but you can't deny his accomplishments. Unless someone stands up in the next few weeks, Tiger is going to win Player of the Year. Again.

I wish I could slump like him.

[Andru]

I'm not a big fan of Tiger, but you can't deny his accomplishments. Unless someone stands up in the next few weeks, Tiger is going to win Player of the Year. Again.

I wish I could slump like him.

How can you not be a fan of Tiger? Not trying to be jerky just curious. As much as he dominates, I find it hard not to pull for him. Maybe it's because he was the first golfer I ever Identified with. As with many The 97 Masters was the first golf tournament I had ever watched on television from beginning to end.

[Rough Stuff]

un-Tiger like because he didn't win a major?

While his B-game certainly still wins him lots, he isn't putting like he used to, he's no longer 2nd in driving (not even on the top 10), his driving accuracy is far less, he's no where on the greens in regs, and he used to CRUSH opponents score wise. And yes, I was shocked at how POORLY he did in the majors.

I agree his game still wins him lots and he's still the top, but I thought his caliber of play this year was poorer (if not poorer, than it certainly fluctuated greatly) than in the past. Do you disagree with that?

I am a Tiger fan, but I also like seeing other guys giving him a run. The best things to watch were Arnold/Player/Trevino vs. Jack matches. No one is challenging Tiger...unless his b-game continues.

[jeffc]

How can you not be a fan of Tiger? Not trying to be jerky just curious. As much as he dominates, I find it hard not to pull for him. Maybe it's because he was the first golfer I ever Identified with. As with many The 97 Masters was the first golf tournament I had ever watched on television from beginning to end.

Because I hate his attitude when he is not playing well. I'm surprised after 7 years on tour he hasn't grown up in this respect. Don't get me wrong, his talent is unbelievable, but when he starts to unravel, I can't stand to watch him. Give me someone like Couples or Els any day.