What's The Ruling

[BC MIST]

Gbower slices his tee shot into the centre of a bush. He deems it unplayable and measures two club-lengths from the outside of the bush.

He drops a ball not nearer the hole, at the maximum distance within the two club-lengths he measured.
The ball rolls only two feet and not nearer the hole, but rolls outside the two club-lengths he had measured.

Believing he must drop the ball again because it rolled outside the measured area, he lifts the ball and drops it again. This time, the ball bounces the other way and comes to rest by the bush.

Unable to get a swing at the ball, he again deems the ball unplayable and this time drops within two club lengths of where the ball had come to rest after the second drop, at a spot which happened to be also within two club lengths of where his original ball had been in the bush.

He then plays the ball.

What penalties does he incur?

[jvincent]

He owes you beer at the end of the round?

I'll have to dig on this one but my guess is that it will get confusing because the first drop was incorrect (wrong location).

One clarification, the second time he dropped the ball where did it land WRT the original position of the ball in the bush?

[BC MIST]

One clarification, the second time he dropped the ball where did it land WRT the original position of the ball in the bush?

The second time the ball again landed OUTSIDE the two club length maximum for an unplayable lie.

[jvincent]

From my read of Rule 20, I think that he only incurs a single stroke for taking relief from the original lie in the bush.

The first two drops were incorrect since the ball first touched the ground outside the two-club distance from the original position of the ball.

There is no penalty for re-dropping after an incorrect drop so the final drop, which landed inside two clubs from the original position, effectively becomes the only "legal" drop.

[Indio]

Why would he allow his competitor to measure the 2 club lengths? Wouldn't that be considered 'assistance'?

[jvincent]

The way BC wrote the story gbower did all of the measuring and dropping himself.

[Indio]

The way BC wrote the story gbower did all of the measuring and dropping himself.

It contains this statement: He drops a ball not nearer the hole, at the maximum distance within the two club-lengths he measured.
The ball rolls only two feet and not nearer the hole, but rolls outside the two club-lengths the competitor had measured.

[jvincent]

I think he was just using the generic term "competitor" the second time but still referring to gbower.

[Indio]

I think he was just using the generic term "competitor" the second time but still referring to gbower.

Sorry, my bad

[justsomeguy]

I believe he is penalized 3 strokes:

1 stroke under Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable)
2 strokes under Rule 18 (Ball at Rest Moved)

His first drop was legal - it did not come to rest more than two clublengths from where it first struck a part of the course - see Rule 20-2c. His subsequent lifting, dropping and playing the ball breached Rule 18-2, costing him 1 stroke for moving the ball and another stroke for not replacing it. Since the movement of the ball did not give him any advantage (just the opposite, in fact), then I would think that this is not a serious breach and not worthy of a DQ.

BTW, I did notice that you waited until gbower left town before posting this.

[AAA]

Why would he allow his competitor to measure the 2 club lengths? Wouldn't that be considered 'assistance'?

But even if it was a fellow competitor or his opponent (or a spectator even) there is no problem. The rule does not say who has to measure and assistance is only prohibited when making a stroke.

[BC MIST]

BTW, I did notice that you waited until gbower left town before posting this.

True, but that is just a coincidence. Actually, Gerry is as close as his laptop and currently, he is either playing golf or just completing his drive to Florida.

[jvincent]

His first drop was legal

I don't believe it was. He measured two clubs from the edge of the bush not from the ball.

[BC MIST]

His first drop was legal - it did not come to rest more than two clublengths from where it first struck a part of the course - see Rule 20-2c.

But that same rule continues ... where the applicable rule requires it to be dropped. There is no rule that says he must drop the ball OUTSIDE the two club lengths, which he did, so he dropped under an inapplicable rule. 20-6 also says that a ball incorrectly dropped may be lifted without penalty and the player must then proceed correctly. So from this he was able to pick up the ball and drop it again within the allowed two club lengths, even though he again, dropped it outside the two club lengths.

[Hacker]

But that same rule continues ... where the applicable rule requires it to be dropped. There is no rule that says he must drop the ball OUTSIDE the two club lengths, which he did, so he dropped under an inapplicable rule. 20-6 also says that a ball incorrectly dropped may be lifted without penalty and the player must then proceed correctly. So from this he was able to pick up the ball and drop it again within the allowed two club lengths, even though he again, dropped it outside the two club lengths.

Pickey little clarification here, but if he never did measure from the ball, how can you be certain that he dropped outside of (or inside for that matter) the two club lengths. If I'm reading this correctly, he never did establish the proper outer boundary for the drop so any judgements as to whether the drop was legal or not are just assumptions.

I guess what I'm really asking is, do you at some point have to actually measure two club lengths from the ball to determine if the drop was legal or illegal??

[Kilroy]

He has one stroke penalty for the unplayable lie, and that's all. He had yet to make a stroke at the ball and his first drop required a re-drop anyway. Therefore all the ther stuff is irrelevant.


and this time drops within two club lengths of where the ball had come to rest after the second drop, at a spot which happened to be also within two club lengths of where his original ball had been in the bush.


20-7. Playing from Wrong Place a. General
A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball in play:
(i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be played or a ball to be dropped or placed; or
(ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.

[AAA]

I guess what I'm really asking is, do you at some point have to actually measure two club lengths from the ball to determine if the drop was legal or illegal??

Only if there is a challenge from another player or a rules official. But it is always safer to do so.

[justsomeguy]

He has one stroke penalty for the unplayable lie, and that's all. He had yet to make a stroke at the ball so all the stuff in between is irrelevant.

It would have been relevant under Rule 18 if the first drop was legal.

However, I missed the fact that he measured from the outside of the bush instead of the ball and dropped at the "maximum distance within the two clublengths measured." Therefore, I agree with jvincent - his first two drops were illegal but the third one was OK - therefore no breach of Rule 18 or Rule 20.

[BC MIST]

I guess what I'm really asking is, do you at some point have to actually measure two club lengths from the ball to determine if the drop was legal or illegal??

The RB has a lot of SHOULD's, MUST's and MAY's. In addition to what AAA said above, if you are taking relief from an immovable obstruction, the RB says that you SHOULD use the club with which you intend to hit the stroke, were the obstruction not there, but you don't have to. However, the ball must be dropped in the correct spot.

In tournament play, it is very wise to mark the spots but in casual play, not doing so does save time. You also know that there are some golfers who have the inate ability to stretch the unmarked two club lengths into 2+.

[gbower]

You were watching me yesterday and instead of dropping I just used the foot wedge and noone saw it. I actually hit 12 of 14 fairways and none in the woods and only one in the water off the tee.

I think I'd be walking in to the clubhouse really **.

Keep the solutions coming so I'll know next time.

[Kiwi battler]

Great spotting JC , you are quite right , 1st drop was incorrect
On face value it appears the 3rd drop was done correctly so only 1 penalty shot for the drop under rule 28

BUT ! we cannot guarantee this is correct until we hear exactly WHERE the ball first struck the course when dropped the 2nd time , if it landed withen the 2 clublengths of the lie of the original ball , its now the ball in play.....remember theres no free redrop if a ball rolls back to where relief was taken under rule 28


BC , can you clarify more clearly what you meant by "The RB has a lot of SHOULD's, MUST's and MAY's. In addition to what AAA said above, if you are taking relief from an immovable obstruction, the RB says that you SHOULD use the club with which you intend to hit the stroke, were the obstruction not there, but you don't have to. However, the ball must be dropped in the correct spot."

People newer to the rules than ourselves may misread it . I think I know what you mean , but its really misleadingly written

[Wknd_Warrior]

without digging through the thread I'll hazard a guess.

1 stroke penalty, the ball wasn't in play after his seconid drop attempt.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I assumed the point of this was whether or not he get's stuck with 2 unplayables because his second drop rolled back to or into the bushes. I would think not, but didn't try and track this down un the rule book.

I don't see a problem with the actual drop attempts.

edit: hmmm, or maybe I do, isn't it 2 length from the BALL, not the back of the bush? still as it turns out he managed to put a ball in play and moves on with only a one stroke penalty

[Kiwi battler]

We cant be sure W/W maybe the 2nd drop was legal , and he has gone and lifted the ball in play after that incurring more penalties

[Wknd_Warrior]

c. When to Re-Drop
A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is
interference by the condition from which relief was taken
under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1
(abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting
green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into
the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2
(embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from
where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-
2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief
(Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin
of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
Rule 20 79
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above,
it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first
struck a part of the course when re-dropped.

Note 1:

If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest

and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies,

unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.
Note 2:

If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is

not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

(Use of Dropping Zone — see Appendix I; Part B; Section 8)

Looks like he's stuck with the second drop as well, 2 strokes. So you can snooker yourself with a bad drop, or that's what it looks like to me.

[Kiwi battler]

Yes you can W/W , but we DO NOT know if the 2nd drop first struck a part of the course withen the 2 c/l's of the balls original position
Id have to assume the it didnt .... but we cant give a difinitive answer to the question on an assumption can we

[BC MIST]

BC , can you clarify more clearly what you meant by "The RB has a lot of SHOULD's, MUST's and MAY's. In addition to what AAA said above, if you are taking relief from an immovable obstruction, the RB says that you SHOULD use the club with which you intend to hit the stroke, were the obstruction not there, but you don't have to. However, the ball must be dropped in the correct spot."

People newer to the rules than ourselves may misread it . I think I know what you mean , but its really misleadingly written

Sure. If I am taking relief from a cart path, for example, there is a nearest point that gives me complete relief from the cart path, and there is an area using the club with which I intend to play the shot if the cart path was not there as the radius. Normally, the player would mark both the NPR and the 1 club length with tees. But, he does not have to, as long as he drops the ball in the proper area, it does not really have to be so marked.

Secondly, if my bag is 100 yards away and yours is near my ball, I can use one of your clubs, as long as it is the same length, to determine my NPR and the club length radius.

Thirdly, if the path is parallel to the right side of the fairway and my ball is on the left side of the path, then as a right hander, my NPR is going to be a few inches from the path on its left side, regardless of what club I may pick. A 45" driver or a 35" wedge will see the NPR be the same spot. It would make a difference if my NPR was on the right side of the path for a right handed golfer, in which case, the proper club would best be used, but again, it does not have to as long as the ball is dropped inn the proper area.

Personally, I would like to see that rule changed to MUST from SHOULD because I have seem some l o n g club lengths used.

[Wknd_Warrior]

Yes you can W/W , but we DO NOT know if the 2nd drop first struck a part of the course withen the 2 c/l's of the balls original position
Id have to assume the it didnt .... but we cant give a difinitive answer to the question on an assumption can we

ahhh, I get it.

[Kiwi battler]

24-2b is my pet rule , which I'd hate to think I had slightly wrong "along with many other rules where measuring is relavent" on a small technicality

That said , you say "Secondly, if my bag is 100 yards away and yours is near my ball, I can use one of your clubs, as long as it is the same length, to determine my NPR and the club length radius."

I was of the opinion the "SHOULD" you want changed to "MUST" only applies to determining NPR , not the "club length radius"

Just to clarify ? the club length radius you speak of is the club length to drop withen from NPR ?

Which is where I think you have misled some peeps ? maybe I'm wrong again

Is my understanding once NPR is determined , ANY club can be used to measure the club length/s relief and then to determine if the ball has rolled more than 2 more

[Kiwi battler]

Just to add , it would be very easy to use a wrong club to determine an incorrect NPR , taking a club length from that NPR , eventually droping the ball which first strikes a part of the course withen a clublength of the TRUE NPR
If that makes sense , hence "should" not "must"