Worst Match Play Defeat Possible

[Fletcher]

A person cannot be 4 up after 2 holes. There is no double jepordy in golf. He would have lost both of the hole if there was a rules violation on either hole.

[Kilroy]

Fletcher, did you read the decision AAA posted?

[AAA]

A person cannot be 4 up after 2 holes. There is no double jepordy in golf. He would have lost both of the hole if there was a rules violation on either hole.

Let's assume B wins the first two holes in normal play. A is then found to have breached rule 4-1. Under your reckoning B is still only two up. In what way has A been penalised ?
But if B wins the first two holes in normal play and he (B) is found to have breached rule 4-1. Under your reckoning it is now all square.

In your way, A breaches the rule - no change in the score. B breaches the rule, he loses the two holes he just won. Something wrong somewhere

Read the decision again carefully.

[BC MIST]

the penalties are taken at "completion" of the hole that they are discovered on

so maybe , if we are looking at a teams agregate situation , and the EXACT margin could be vital , then counting ever penalty etc may be warranted

so , if deducted holes can be counted on the winning side of the equation , then 18/8 .... but still only guessing

A match is OVER when a side is more holes up that there are holes remaining. Unlike stroke play where team totaling does exist, there is NO totaling/aggregate of UPS and DOWNS in TEAM match play. A match is either won, lost or tied and the "score" does not matter. 18 & 8 is not possible as a match will be over before 18 up can be reached. If there were more rules where the penalty for a breach is to have holes adjusted, it would be.

Now, if someone can come up with a scenario where 18 & 8 can happen, playing by The Rules of course, I will do a humble mea culpa.

[BC MIST]

A person cannot be 4 up after 2 holes.

A person can be 8 or 9 up after two holes. (caddie, cart, ball, 15 clubs) Just read the decision and this will become apparent.

[Kiwi battler]

BC , if teams cant be seperated after completion of a round robin matchplay type event , its quite possible for holes won vrs lost to be added as a form of tie breaker .....

As for senerio , lets assume player A is 9 up with 9 to play and on the 10th hole he has it pointed out to him that player B has been breaching 3 COC rules and the 14 club rule ...assuming A wins the 10th , at its completion he is gifted the 8 holes ....if thats how it might work
18/8 ........and a helpful number of won holes for the team if things come close

Far fetched things happen in golf all the time , holes in 1 on a par 5 for instance

[BC MIST]

BC , if teams cant be seperated after completion of a round robin matchplay type event , its quite possible for holes won vrs lost to be added as a form of tie breaker .....

As for senerio , lets assume player A is 9 up with 9 to play and on the 10th hole he has it pointed out to him that player B has been breaching 3 COC rules and the 14 club rule ...assuming A wins the 10th , at its completion he is gifted the 8 holes ....if thats how it might work
18/8 ........and a helpful number of won holes for the team if things come close

Far fetched things happen in golf all the time , holes in 1 on a par 5 for instance

(1) In your scenario you state that "A wins the 10th."At that point the match is over. Therefore, no penalty holes can be added, even if it is discovered that he breached 100 rules before this. But, if the match is still in progress, as in "9 up with 9 to play," then the penalties for the various breaches are applied, simultaneously:
2 holes for the 14+ clubs
1 for having two caddies?? (I believe that the other is added on at the end of the next hole)
2 for the one ball rule
2 for the transportation rule
making the final result 16 & 9.

(2) The Rules of Golf do not contemplate TEAM, match play competitions and so there is nothing in the Rule book recommending how to break ties in this kind of competition. However, it does state that "Rule 33-6 empowers the Committee to determine how and when a halved match... is decided. The decision should be published in advance."This involves "A MATCH," not a series of matches where a total is required.

In our local club Intersectional matches, how are teams ties broken? Firstly, 2 points are given for a match play win and one for a tie. If two teams are tied at the end, then the committee looks at the head to head matches between the teams that are tied and whoever won the most matches, wins. If this still produces a tie, then they look at the results starting from the #1 player and work down to #10 until the tie is broken. But NEVER are the holes up or down totaled. If this is done somewhere it is really Mickey Mouse as the only thing that is important is who won the match, not by how many holes did he win. Beating someone 17 & 9 is the same as winning 1 up.

[Kiwi battler]

Penalties are added "on completion of the hole where discovery of breach is made"
, meaning the match is over when #10 is finished .....10/8 + 8 penalties
I hear what your saying tho , but remember we are talking hypo's more or less

Last year 2 teams fighting for the 4th semifinal spot finished the round robin with 58.5 wins each ........one team beat the other 4.5/3.5 in R/R so made the semi
If the team had halved they then as mickey mouse as it may be , and the rules may not contemplate such an act , but to count holes won vrs lost would have been the next action
Some clubs may well run an individual comp withen the matchplay event , giving a trophy for best player , tell me holes for and against wouldnt matter in event of a tie

[BC MIST]

Penalties are added "on completion of the hole where discovery of breach is made"
, meaning the match is over when #10 is finished .....10/8 + 8 penalties
I hear what your saying tho , but remember we are talking hypo's more or less

Last year 2 teams fighting for the 4th semifinal spot finished the round robin with 58.5 wins each ........one team beat the other 4.5/3.5 in R/R so made the semi
If the team had halved they then as mickey mouse as it may be , and the rules may not contemplate such an act , but to count holes won vrs lost would have been the next action
Some clubs may well run an individual comp withen the matchplay event , giving a trophy for best player , tell me holes for and against wouldnt matter in event of a tie

1. Not 10 & 8 +8 penalties, but 10 & 8. You can't add penalties to a match that is OVER, where the competitors have left the last green and where no claim(s) has been made,.

2. Your committee can do whatever it wants to settle ties for the kind of competition in which you are taking part. However, a match is a match and it must be seen that the only outcome that is meaningful is "Who won?" If a playoff it not feasible, then ties are accepted, for team purposes. To say that a 10 & 8 win is worth more than a 1 up win is against the spirit of match play, however, your group has obviously modified the rules to suit yourselves and that's fine. It makes it the way it is, but it does not mean that it is fair.

3. In an individual match play event, I don't understand why you would ask about individual holes, probably because I don't know the workings of how you run your event. If you and I are playing in the finals of a match play tournament and you beat your opponent in the semis 10 & 8 and I beat mine 1 up, why does it matter what the "UPS" were? You won. I won. And now we rumble. The winner gets the trophy.

Is it possible that you are referring to a large group of golfers, say 100, playing roughly 25 matches against any of the other golfers, then calculating who won the greatest number of matches, and then giving him a trophy. If this is close to what you do, then it is not a true, individual, match play event. It would be like saying that if the Western NHL Conference played all of its games against other western teams and the Eastern conference did the same, then if Detroit has 100 points and Ottawa has 99, Detroit wins the Stanley Cup. I don't think so. Would you describe the setup of your event so I can understand what you do?

[Kiwi battler]

The 2nd senerio was a hypo , and quite possible , especially privately between individuals wether in the same team or against each other , simply as a side bet possibly

The rules of golf dont contemplate a lot of things , and in most cases if they dont say you cant , then you can

According to your logic the match is over 11/9 , soon as the first 2 penaly holes are added


sorry for being so brief , running late for work

[Sphere Hunter]

This might be a stupid question and maybe it has already been brought up but…
If, as a result of a bunch of rules infractions, a guy somehow ends up 5 down with 4 holes to go, why is the match over. From what I'm reading here, it is possible to lose several holes during the play of one hole. If this is the case, shouldn't the match be played to the 18th hole? What if "A" is 2 down on the 18th tee and wins the hole, then discovers player "B" has made a rules infraction. All of a sudden they are tied aren't they?
Am I losing my mind?

[Kilroy]

That's an interesting question SH. I guess because without a major violation by the leader, which has not been claimed at that point in the match, it's over.

[Big Johnny69]

That's an interesting question SH. I guess because without a major violation by the leader, which has not been claimed at that point in the match, it's over.

This was my thought Dan. You can't assume the leader is going to commit a rules infraction later in the match. So when it's over, the match is over.

[AAA]

2-3 Winner of Match

A match is won when one side leads by a number of holes greater than the number remaining to be played.

[BC MIST]

The rules of golf dont contemplate a lot of things , and in most cases if they dont say you cant , then you can

Would you give us an example of this?

to your logic the match is over 11/9 , soon as the first 2 penaly holes are added

This is not my logic, but the rules. The rules state that the penalties are applied at the end of the hole at which the breaches were discovered. This means simultaneously.

[BC MIST]

2-3 Winner of Match

A match is won when one side leads by a number of holes greater than the number remaining to be played.

True, BUT. Let's say that the match is over with A winning 5 & 4. They continue playing and B discovers on #16 that A has 15 clubs in his bag. Can he make a claim at that point?

YES. Decision 2 - 5/5.5 says that because B's claim is based on facts previously unknown to him, he is deemed to have been given wrong information by A. Because of this they must return to the 14th where the match "ended," and continue play from there. Instead of 5 & 4 the match is now 3 & 4, because of the two hole adjustment.

Had the players walked in, the result been "officially announced," and then B found out that A had 15 clubs resulting in a claim, the claim would be invalid. Officially announced means that A's name had been written on the official score sheet, even if it is a piece of paper stuck on a wall in the Pro shop. Dec 2- 5/14.

[Sphere Hunter]

2-3 Winner of Match

A match is won when one side leads by a number of holes greater than the number remaining to be played.

I know a rule is a rule but I have to assume that the "meaning" or "root" of this rule is that if you are up more holes than are remaining, the match is over because it is not possible to come back. Maybe this rule will need to be revisited at some point given these new penalties. The rules of golf just don't make sense sometimes.

Having your opponent dormie on the 16th hole of an 18 hole match, then losing to him 2 and 1 because of penalties doesn't make sense either. I always thought "dormie" meant you can only win or tie after 18 holes. I guess I was wrong… again!

[Kiwi battler]

Im not going to sit here and try to recall any of many situations that have arisen that the rules do not cover , but its a saying often heard amongst rules guru's ....... if it doesnt say you cant , then you probably can

Rule 1-4 goes a little towards covering this sorta thing


Can you tell us where in the rules it states a player must add all penalties simultaneously? I feel your interpreting the rules a tad in your arguments favour

As for this new addition to the topic , the wording of 4-4a may have been written that way "matchplay penalties" just to take this senerio out of the equation , or it may have been a fluke , which I'd be more inclined to think

The match ended on hole 14 , playing the 15/16th hole is no longer part of the match , its holes 1/2 of a nothing hack about .....the 16th hole was/is never played

[AAA]

Maybe this rule will need to be revisited at some point given these new penalties.

These are not 'new' penalties. The penalty statement for 4-1 and 4-2 has been brought into line with 4-4. DQ was thought too severe.

Having your opponent dormie on the 16th hole of an 18 hole match, then losing to him 2 and 1 because of penalties doesn't make sense either.

So it doesn't make sense to lose to him because you accidentally kicked your ball when searching for it on the 17th and asked him what club he used when playing the 18th and ..... ?
You broke a rule, you pay the price.
Remember, you would be DQd on any hole if you do it before midight

[BC MIST]

Im not going to sit here and try to recall any of many situations that have arisen that the rules do not cover , but its a saying often heard amongst rules guru's ....... if it doesnt say you cant , then you probably can

Rule 1-4 goes a little towards covering this sorta thing


Can you tell us where in the rules it states a player must add all penalties simultaneously? I feel your interpreting the rules a tad in your arguments favour

As for this new addition to the topic , the wording of 4-4a may have been written that way "matchplay penalties" just to take this senerio out of the equation , or it may have been a fluke , which I'd be more inclined to think

The match ended on hole 14 , playing the 15/16th hole is no longer part of the match , its holes 1/2 of a nothing hack about .....the 16th hole was/is never played

The rules of golf are not open to interpretation but they are misinterpreted frequently, usually for the golfer to gain some advantage. How many times is someone penalized too much versus too little or not at all? I rest my case.

The penalty for breach of the 14 club rule, non-conforming club rule, one ball rule, transportation rule and the caddie rule, is as follows. "At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which the breach occurred: maximum deduction per round: two holes." Please explain how I am misinterpreting the underlined portion of the statement "in my favour." One is penalized at the end of the hole where the breach is discovered, or NOT. Which is it? Where in the rules does it say that if there are breaches of several rules discovered at the same time, that a golfer does NOT have to accept the penalties or have the penalties spread out over several holes. The rule tells us EXACTLY what to do. In equity (4-1) is it fair NOT to have some penalties applied? The only time multiple penalties are NOT applied occur when the golfer breaks one rule several times at the same time. If I quadruple hit a shot, I am only penalized once.

To SH's question: SP and Kiwi Battler are playing a match and SH has a towel over has clubs. He beats you on the 14th 5 & 4, you shake hands and he takes the towel off of his clubs and smiles a "Gotcha" smile, as you count 16 clubs in his bag. You have NO recourse? Would this not P you off big time? Same match: SH is lying 4 on the green, six inches from the hole. You say, "What are you lying," SH says, "Three." As you are lying 4, you say. "That's good," conceding the hole. Later, it comes to your attention that SH was lying 4, not 3 on the hole that you conceded. You have no recourse? He broke Rule 9 - 2 b (ii) Information as to Stroke Taken and should lose the hole. Now, if the match ends and before the results are posted, you discover that SH has either cheated or broken a rule, is it not fair that you should have some way of making things right, or are you OK with losing the match this way, because the match is OVER?

The Rules of Golf are incredible simple and endlessly complicated. Confusion comes because we don't understand a particular rule and yet we think we do. There IS an answer (ruling) to all situations but sometimes our unwillingness to add strokes to our scores, blinds us from seeing the truth. Two years ago I thought I had a good understanding of the rules. But the more I have studied them, the more I learn, but the more I realize that previously, I didn't know very much. Of course, some will say that I still don't know very much.

[Big Johnny69]

So are you saying if I'm in a match and I lose on the 16th hole but we decide to play the 17th and 18th anyways, and after we finish the 18th hole I notice my opponent had 16 clubs in his bag I can make a claim? In your wording, this would have to be claimed at the conclusion of the hole I discovered the breach on. With it being the 18th hole and with the match being over on the 16th this hole is not technically part of the match, so how can I make a claim? Sure, my opponent broke a rule, but it could've been an honest mistake leaving the extra club or two in the bag and perhaps he didn't even use those clubs, but he still has to hit the shots and on that day he did and beat me. Sometimes things are missed and that's the way it goes, I'd feel terrible doing that to someone after the match was technically over. I'm competitive, but not that competitive. That would be an error on myself that I would've wished I spotted earlier.

[Sphere Hunter]

The Rules of Golf are incredible simple and endlessly complicated. Confusion comes because we don't understand a particular rule and yet we think we do. There IS an answer (ruling) to all situations but sometimes our unwillingness to add strokes to our scores, blinds us from seeing the truth. Two years ago I thought I had a good understanding of the rules. But the more I have studied them, the more I learn, but the more I realize that previously, I didn't know very much. Of course, some will say that I still don't know very much.

I agree with you BC. Although, if you think you don't know very much about the rules, I don't know where that leaves people like me. The funny thing about the rules of golf is that, no matter what, there is always another challenging question or ruling coming along. No matter how well one thinks he or she knows the rules, there's always a new situation just around the corner.

[Kiwi battler]

Bc , you say the match is over once is a winner is decided , that the penalties are not added once the match is over

Yet on the 9th hole , once 4 rules breaches are discovered , you say one MUST add all penalties simultainiously ...
I say maybe if you take the first breach , add the 2 holes , then at that point the game is over "by your logic" and no further penalties need be , or can be added because the match is over .......9 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 9 + 8 except when 9 + 2 = game over
Nowhere in 4-1 , nor anywhere else in the rules that I can recall ,does it say you must bunch all breaches together before adding a penalty like this

We are talking hypo's here more or less afterall , and a senerio that would be rearer than hens teeth ....... If a trip for 2 to a local resort was on offer as a prize for the player with best overall agregate in a matchplay series thru the year , Im sure you'd want the extra 8 holes added after winning 10/8
The opponent has breached , it was before the hole was completed that discovery was made , the player should in the interests of fairness , be gifted these 8 holes

[Hacker]

The rules of golf are not open to interpretation

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I always thought that the Decisions were in fact interpretations of the rules

[BC MIST]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I always thought that the Decisions were in fact interpretations of the rules

Clarifications, not interpretations.

Can you think of a rule where a golfer would CORRECTLY interpret it to do THIS and also CORRECTLY interpret it to do THAT. What obviously happens is the some will INCORRECTLY interpret a rule and just by coincidence, it is usually in their favour.

Wouldn't life be dull if we were all protagonists?.

[BC MIST]

It seems that my comments have not convinced you, and that is OK, but it is also apparent that the words of the applicable rule, which are very specific in their description of what to do, haven’t either, so I am at a loss as to what to say next. Last try.

Bc , you say the match is over once is a winner is decided , that the penalties are not added once the match is over

The winner is the golfer who is more holes up than there are holes remaining, all claims have been settled, if there are any, AND when the results have been officially posted. (See post #76 above)

Yet on the 9th hole , once 4 rules breaches are discovered , you say one MUST add all penalties simultainiously ...
I say maybe if you take the first breach , add the 2 holes , then at that point the game is over "by your logic" and no further penalties need be , or can be added because the match is over .......9 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 9 + 8 except when 9 + 2 = game over
Nowhere in 4-1 , nor anywhere else in the rules that I can recall ,does it say you must bunch all breaches together before adding a penalty like this

Question: When someone breaks most rules, when is the penalty stroke added to the golfer’s score? Answer: As soon as he breaks a rule. Example: If I address a putt and the ball moves, I am AUTOMATICALLY lying 1 more. NOT when my fellow competitor says, “Your ball moved,” NOT when I say, “My ball moved,” NOT when an official says, “Your ball moved,” not when I get to the next tee and I say, “4 plus a penalty stroke,” but as soon as the ball moves. If I hit a tree in front of me and the ball comes back and hits me, I am instantantaneously lying 1 more. (Stroke play)Even if I am unaware that this is a penalty, I am lying one more. If I hit a wrong ball,(SP) my score is up by two, the instant I hit the wrong ball, again, even if I am not aware that I hit a wrong ball.

Now, after hitting an iron into the second green, (Match Play)you discover that I have 15 clubs, a non-conforming club, two caddies, am riding instead of walking, when am I penalized? Answer: Look at the applicable rules I described in post 80. "At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which the breach occurred. When is the hole over? Answer: As soon as my ball is at rest below the circumference of the hole, it’s over, not when I walk to the next tee discussing what happened, but as soon as I hole out. We may talk about them later but there is no two for this and two for that, etc., it’s 8, instantly. If you see this, then apply it to the 9th hole.

We are talking hypo's here more or less after all , and a senerio that would be rearer than hens teeth ....... If a trip for 2 to a local resort was on offer as a prize for the player with best overall agregate in a matchplay series thru the year , I’m sure you'd want the extra 8 holes added after winning 10/8
The opponent has breached , it was before the hole was completed that discovery was made , the player should in the interests of fairness , be gifted these 8 holes

The RULES of GOLF govern stroke play, match play, foursome play, threesome play, four ball play and Stableford play. They do NOT govern “best overall agregate in a matchplay.” This is a modified game of golf that YOUR friends or a committee has organized for your participation. The committee decides what rules you play by and it may decide to use most of the RULES of GOLF. However, don’t send anything off to the USGA, R&A or the RCGA for a decision, because your game is NOT part of the RULES. Similarly, the commonly played format called a SCRAMBLE is NOT golf, but a modified game of golf. There is nothing in the RULE book about SCRAMBLE. So, if your committee wants to aggregate the UPS in a match play format, that’s fine, but it is NOT golf, as outlined in the RULES, so none of what we talked about above applies, UNLESS your committee decides to do this.

BTW: If you win this tournament you have lost your amateur status as a golfer because you will have accepted a prize whose value exceeds $1000, which I believe is the current prize max. The defense rests.

[Kilroy]

...don’t send anything off to the USGA, R&A or the RCGA for a decision, because your game is NOT part of the RULES.... it is NOT golf, as outlined in the RULES, ...

BTW: If you win this tournament you have lost your amateur status as a golfer because you will have accepted a prize whose value exceeds $1000, which I believe is the current prize max. The defense rests.

Just a thought... If a game where $1001 is won was not plaid by the rules of golf, and therefore not recognized by the RCGA as a game of golf, then why should they take away the winners armature status? After all the prize was not won in a game of golf.

[BC MIST]

Just a thought... If a game where $1001 is won was not plaid by the rules of golf, and therefore not recognized by the RCGA as a game of golf, then why should they take away the winners armature status? After all the prize was not won in a game of golf.

Aha. The Devil's Advocat is alive and well. Your comments are perfectly logical and it would be interesting to hear what the RCGA would have to say about this scenario. They would probably disagree and we could challenge their ruling in golf court. (know any good lawyers - mpare???)

[Kilroy]

I thought you'd like that.

[AAA]

The funny thing about the rules of golf is that, no matter what, there is always another challenging question or ruling coming along. No matter how well one thinks he or she knows the rules, there's always a new situation just around the corner.

Indeed. That is the problem with golf. It's not the rules themselves.
Because the game is played in such varying conditions (ie not on a regular oblong pitch or court, with a perfect surface and no obstructions or other interferences) it gives rise to an infinite number of different problems. The rules have developed as these situations start to become identified in a generic way and the decisions (in fact rules by definition) added to clarify the course of action for a player.
Inevitably a player will, during his paying life encounter something not specifically covered. Although some people will say about a situation they encounter 'It isn't in the Rules'. They are wrong, it is Rule 1-4.