Worst Match Play Defeat Possible

[BC MIST]

The rules say maximum penalty is 2 holes lost. If he has not won any he can not be penalized any. He can only lose what he has won.

This is not true.

He can lose 2 holes max, for each breach. So if he was:
2 up after 2, he is now even
1 up he is 1 down
even he is 2 down
1 down he is 3 down
2 down, he is 4 down

See Decision 4 - 4a/9. #2.

[dhacker1956]

Sorry the rules states the maximum "deduction" is two holes. If someone has not won a hole then how can you deduct from his score?

[dhacker1956]

This is not true.

He can lose 2 holes max, for each breach. So if he was:
2 up after 2, he is now even
1 up he is 1 down
even he is 2 down
1 down he is 3 down
2 down, he is 4 down

See Decision 4 - 4a/9. #2.

So if he is 2 up after 2 ...he HAS won at least two. I didn't say he had to be ahead to have holes deducted only that he had to have won holes to have them deducted.
If you read mt scenario above I said he won the first two holes. Hew would have both of them deducted. Thereby raising my score by two holes. If I had won ALL the holes up to the time the rules violation was discovered he has NO holes to deduct. Hence NO penalty. Guess I should not play so Good!!!
.

[dhacker1956]

I just did a Google. You are correct. I am wrong. Doesnt make much sense to me! But then neither do the rules in general. So I guess the worst los would be 12 and 8.

[mpare]

I am obviously a minority of one, but I still see both players being disqualified before they even hit their tee shots on the first hole as "the worse loss."

I just did a Google. You are correct. I am wrong. Doesnt make much sense to me! But then neither do the rules in general. So I guess the worst los would be 12 and 8.

[GarthM]

Based on the CoC recommended rules for the one ball rule, if you play the Titleist on the first hole the Bridgestone on the second and third, you are then dq'd, therefore somewhat worse than 12-8.

[gbower]

For playing a different brand in match play under Appendix I the penalty is:
At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered the state of the match must be adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round:Two holes.
Procedure When Breach Discovered:
When a player discovers that he has played a ball in breach of this condition, he must abandon that ball before playing from the next teeing ground and complete the round with a proper ball; otherwise, the player is disqualified. If discovery is made during play of a hole and the player elects to substitute a proper ball before completing that hole, the player must place a proper ball on the spot where the ball played in breach of the condition lay.

[Big Johnny69]

All these scenarios....I'm just curious as to what the worst possible defeat in match play is.....anyone????

[Kiwi battler]

maybe its 18/8 ....which would be imbarrassing if your score was part of a team effort

[GarthM]

For playing a different brand in match play under Appendix I the penalty is:
At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered the state of the match must be adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round:Two holes.
Procedure When Breach Discovered:
When a player discovers that he has played a ball in breach of this condition, he must abandon that ball before playing from the next teeing ground and complete the round with a proper ball; otherwise, the player is disqualified. If discovery is made during play of a hole and the player elects to substitute a proper ball before completing that hole, the player must place a proper ball on the spot where the ball played in breach of the condition lay.

exactly, he would be dq'd after teeing off on #3. Not sure what you were getting at Gerry?

[BC MIST]

exactly, he would be dq'd after teeing off on #3. Not sure what you were getting at Gerry?

Does he not just mean that if he KNOWINGLY tees off with another other brand of ball, he is disqualified? Otherwise the applicable 2 holes deduction would occur WHEN the breach is discovered, which could be anywhere in the match.

[BC MIST]

I am obviously a minority of one, but I still see both players being disqualified before they even hit their tee shots on the first hole as "the worse loss."

The worst defeat IS a matter of opinion. If I am disqualified, I have beaten myself. But if I am defeated by a wide margin, at the hands of an opponent, IMO, the defeat is worse.

If you are defeated in the final, you get a prize. If you are disqualified in the final, do you still get one?

[BC MIST]

maybe its 18/8 ....which would be imbarrassing if your score was part of a team effort

If there are 4 situations where 2 holes would be added or deducted, then 18 & 8 would not be possible as the match would be over. However, 17 & 9 could happen.

[AAA]

As they say in elementary math class: You must show your work, not just an answer.
Can you explain?

Player loses holes 1 & 2
He is then found to have breached the following Rules but makes no further breaches.
4-1
4-2
4-4
CoC one ball
CoC no caddie
CoC no transportation
If he then continues to lose holes through play, when is the match over ?

[Kiwi battler]

the penalties are taken at "completion" of the hole that they are discovered on

so maybe , if we are looking at a teams agregate situation , and the EXACT margin could be vital , then counting ever penalty etc may be warranted

so , if deducted holes can be counted on the winning side of the equation , then 18/8 .... but still only guessing

[AAA]

Player loses holes 1 & 2 - 2 down - 16 to play

breaches discovered
4-1 4 down
4-2 6 down
4-4 8 down
CoC one ball 10 down
CoC no caddie 12 down
CoC no transportation 14 down - still 16 to play

Loses 3rd 15 down - 15 to play - dormie
Loses 4th 16 down - 14 to play

[mpare]

Point taken, except that if you throw in, for example, extra club penalties and the like, the opponent really hasn't administered the thrashing that the score would suggest. Rather, the application of the rules has done you in, which to my thinking is not much different than being disqualified before you tee off.

The worst defeat IS a matter of opinion. If I am disqualified, I have beaten myself. But if I am defeated by a wide margin, at the hands of an opponent, IMO, the defeat is worse. ...

[sillywilly]

Point taken, except that if you throw in, for example, extra club penalties and the like, the opponent really hasn't administered the thrashing that the score would suggest. Rather, the application of the rules has done you in, which to my thinking is not much different than being disqualified before you tee off.

I would have to agree

[dhacker1956]

Is the worst defaet the fact one has lost 18 & 8 or whatever or the fact that he steps onto the course in a match and doesn't know the rules any better than to screw them all up that badly?

[AAA]

One of course could lose 10 - 8 without any of the penalties I mentioned, simply by infringing any 10 of the rules which result in loss of hole in match play (eg 7-2 or 12-2).
If you don't know the rules how can you play a match without running foul of them

[BC MIST]

Player loses holes 1 & 2 - 2 down - 16 to play

breaches discovered
4-1 4 down
4-2 6 down
4-4 8 down
CoC one ball 10 down
CoC no caddie 12 down
CoC no transportation 14 down - still 16 to play

Loses 3rd 15 down - 15 to play - dormie
Loses 4th 16 down - 14 to play

Are the penalties for 4-1 and 4-2 not disqualification versus state of match adjustment by 2 holes?

[Kiwi battler]

I can think of a worse loss ......your whipping the bloke senseless , 9up with 9holes to play , youve driven the 10th green with an easy birdie ahead , the bloke is dead in the trees
But just before he has a chance to simply concede defeat , you get an almighty cramp , and your anus literally explodes , you fill your pants down to your socks and cant continue

All ya team mates give you heaps of course , and you gain some disgusting new nickname lol

[sillywilly]

I'm still going with 18-0

[Kilroy]

I'm still going with 18-0

How could that happen?

[sillywilly]

How could that happen?

the match is all square after the 18th hole and then you find to many clubs, thats 2 holes... Maybe there are a few other pens. that can be applied to get the other 7 holes back

[Kiwi battler]

would have to be 18/18 after 36 holes .......good thinking tho

now we are taking 27/10 .....i cant think of any 72 hole matches
most club champ finals over our ways are 36 holes

[AAA]

Are the penalties for 4-1 and 4-2 not disqualification versus state of match adjustment by 2 holes?

You are right as of today but I am referring to 2008

*PENALTY FOR CARRYING, BUT NOT MAKING STROKE WITH,
CLUB OR CLUBS IN BREACH OF RULE 4-1 or 4-2:
match play — At the conclusion of the hole at which the
breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by
deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred;
maximum deduction per round — Two holes.

PENALTY FOR mAKING STROKE WITH CLUB IN BREACH OF
RULE 4-1 or 4-2: Disqualification.

[Fletcher]

You cannot lose a hole twice. If after 2 holes player A has won both holes but discovered that he has 15 clubs then player B is deemeed to have won those holes. If Player B had won those holes then he would only be 2 up even if with players A club violation. It dosen't matter if there are a hundred rule violations or one violation you can only lose a hole once and after it has been played or while being played.

[dhacker1956]

I thought that was the case also. But did not want to make an * of myself.

[AAA]

Fletcher
You are misunderstanding the Rule.
The 'holes' in question are not being won or lost. They are penalty holes awarded against the defaulting player.

In effect If A wins the first two hole in normal play, the score is
A +2 & B 0
or A is 2 up

If it is then discovered that B has breached rule 4-1 on both the holes he is penalised by the deducting 2 holes from his score. The score now is

A +2 & B -2
or A is 4 up with two holes played

For confirmation of the process see
Decision 4-4a/9

(The main point is in the answer in bold at the end of the Decision)


Q. Please confirm that the following is a correct interpretation of Rule 4-4a in a match between A and B:

(1) After the 1st hole, it is discovered that B has more than 14 clubs:
(a) If B won the hole — the match is all square.
(b) If the hole was halved — A is 1 up.
(c) If A won the hole — A is 2 up.

(2) After the 2nd hole, it is discovered that B has more than 14 clubs:
(a) If B won both holes — the match is all square.
(b) If B was 1 up — A is 1 up.
(c) If the match was all square — A is 2 up.
(d) If A was 1 up — A is 3 up.
(e) If A was 2 up — A is 4 up.

(3) Later in the match, but before the players leave the last green, it is discovered that B has more than 14 clubs:
(a) If B was more than 2 up — 2 “ups” are deducted.
(b) If B was 2 up — the match is all square.
(c) If B was 1 up — A is 1 up.
(d) If the match was all square — A is 2 up.
(e) If A was 1 up — A is 3 up.
(f) If A was 2 up — A is 4 up.
(g) If A was more than 2 up — 2 “ups” are added to his “ups.”

A. As the loss of hole penalty for a breach of Rule 4-4a is not applied to a specific hole, but to the state of the match at the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, your interpretation is correct.