Etiquette ?

[Jimmy]

I just read the post and replies on the length of time to play a round of golf and some of the varying reasons why it takes so long. It all has to do with etiquette. I am heading off to play in a tournament shortly, but I really want to get the ball rolling on this " Most " " Important " issue concerning the game of golf. I would like to be enlightened by the posters and repliers to this message board on etiquette, your views, comments, etc. I am just curious to see what the average golfer thinks about this all important issue !

Let it fly boys/men ! You thought handicaps was a tough one, wait to you see where this one goes !

Remember always keep an open-mind.......!

[Kilroy]

Gee Jimmy, I see you want to start something here, but you did not really make a point.

I would like to be enlightened by the posters and repliers to this message board on etiquette, your views, comments,

I agree. Etiquette is important.

[Weazl]

Gee Jimmy, I see you want to start something here, but you did not really make a point.

I agree. Etiquette is important.

No kidding! Etiquette is important but as mentioned in many other posts, as gold becomes increasingly more popular and the " hacker ' or once in a while golfer goes out more often, the people who play more often & follow the etiquette will get stuck behind these ' hackers " more often as well. That's why i agree with Steve K when saying it's always best to golf early in the Am, usually with the members or better golfers thus avoiding the " hackers ", HOPEFULLY!

[Kilroy]

True that more experienced golfers are the ones up early and already on the course by 7:00 am, however that is a really minor part of the equation.

Starting early means finishing early primarily because there are no bottlenecks yet. If you are in the 5th group out, then there is only a 1/16 chance that there is a "problem player" in front of you.

Once the course is full, there are 144 people in front of you when you step on the first tee. Slow players are inevitible, and affect every group behind them. Then someone looks too long for a ball, and it affects everyone behind them...

Teeing off at 1:00 on a Sunday at a puiblic course means finishing at 6:00.

Private courses are different because all the members are experienced, frequent golfers who invested over $1000 to play golf. They know the game of golf. Bottlenecks are fewer, and in most cases tee times are a bit farther apart. Afternoon play can be as quick as mornings.

Improving the hacker's etiquite on public courses would certainly help later in the day, but early rounds will always be faster.

Unfortunately the once a year player likely does not read this forum, so we are just preaching to the faithfull. Nothing wrong with that, but it likely won't change much. :cry

[Andru]

5 hour rounds don't bother me. As long as it's not the group I'm in, causing the hold up.

You're right Dan experience is everything.

If you put 2 NASCAR drivers on 3/4 mile track or 40 they'll run at the same speed. If you did the same with regular drivers. good luck!

[Rough Stuff]

I would like to be enlightened by the posters and repliers to this message board on etiquette...

You want to know what I feel is proper etiquette? Or ways to speed it up? I'm not sure, but here you go. All of my points don't apply to a tournament situation and they assume everyone has agreed to play ready golf.

#1 mistake: golfers who's ball is on the opposite side of the fairway, but out of respect, stand behind and near their fellow competitors, waiting for them to shoot before even walking to their ball. They watch too many PGA games, and think this is proper. Instead, ALWAYS go to your ball SO LONG as you don't create a visual or physical interference for your playing partners. ALWAYS select your club. You can EVEN take practice swings while the current shooter is taking practice swings. Same with a golf cart: drive player A to his ball, drop him off with 2 clubs, and go to your ball. Pick him up after you both shoot.

#2 mistake (optional): On the tee box, waiting for the guys with honours to come up. If you have your driver and hes not even ready yet, and you are: TEE OFF. Better yet, if you're hitting a safe 3 iron that can go max 210 yards, and he's going to go for the green with the driver, SHOOT FIRST when the people are outside of the 210 range (preferably 250, just in case).

#3 mistake: the green. Everyone but one is on. He has just skulled a chip and it goes over the green, far away, maybe in the sand requiring a different club. THe friend is mad, he needs time to compose and get a new club. Meanwhile, you have a 40 foot putt and you're ready to go. Go ahead and putt it while he's going around. This notion of waiting for everyone on the green in this case is a waste. SO LONG as you can putt before he's there and ready...

#4 mistake: the green. If you are away, and you just putt your first shot within 3 feet of the hole, and YOURE READY TO GO AGAIN, just putt out. It saves SO MUCH TIME than marking your ball and sitting back, going through the routine, etc. I'm not saying do it fast, and I"m not saying putt it out if you're not ready. Oh, and ask permission first.

#5 mistake (the amateur mistakes). The green. Leaving a cart in front of the green (foolish). Marking a score while standing on the green (foolish). Dropping a ball and putting again to see "if I could have done it" while people are waiting (insulting).

#6 mistake: its just after the ninth, you've been holding people up behind you, there's no one in front, so you GET SANDWICHES AND YOU DONT LET THE GROUP BEHIND PLAY THROUGH. Insulting and foolish.

#7 mistake: you're slow. The holes are open in front of you, the same group has been behind you for 3 holes, and YOU DONT LET THEM PLAY THROUGH. Arrogant and ignorant.

#8 mistake: you've sent a ball into the woods (deep) and you and your 3 friends help you look for well over 3 minutes. Please, someone shoot, then look. alternatively, the original shooter should IMMEDIATELY drop and hit a provisional while his friends give a quick look. If he finds the ball, and hes got a punch shot, fine, shoot it, forget about the provisional.

[el tigre]

If it is not done properly, letting a group "play through" will actually slow down play EVEN MORE for everyone else except the group that got to go ahead. And quite often, it is not done properly.

First of all, the only place you should really let a group "play through" is on the tee. Anywhere else will involve the front group waiting for the other to catch up. It's OK for the back group to hit up to the front group (i.e., let the group waiting on the tee hit up to the green on a par 3), so they can catch up at the next tee box. But standing around waiting for the back group to walk up to their ball and then "play through" just wastes even more time.

At the tee, the group that arrives first should tee off first (usually the front group). Then the next group tees off (usually the back group), so there could potentially be 8 balls in the fairway. Then the group "playing through" gets to actually do so by playing their next shot.

[Rough Stuff]

At the tee, the group that arrives first should tee off first (usually the front group). Then the next group tees off (usually the back group), so there could potentially be 8 balls in the fairway. Then the group "playing through" gets to actually do so by playing their next shot.

I didn't know there was any other way.

[powerlefty]

You want to know what I feel is proper etiquette? Or ways to speed it up? I'm not sure, but here you go. All of my points don't apply to a tournament situation and they assume everyone has agreed to play ready golf.

#4 mistake: the green. If you are away, and you just putt your first shot within 3 feet of the hole, and YOURE READY TO GO AGAIN, just putt out. It saves SO MUCH TIME than marking your ball and sitting back, going through the routine, etc. I'm not saying do it fast, and I"m not saying putt it out if you're not ready. Oh, and ask permission first.
.

Actually I don't think you need permission to put out. Once started, you may continue putting so long as you don't tread uopn on someone's line.

[LobWedge]

Starters and marshalls need to be aware of pace of play. Thats their job.

If you're playing on a day where there's a chance of the course being packed, expect your round to be closer to 4:45 hours than 3 hours.

Be aware of the group(s) in front of you. There's no point letting someone through if there's no where to go. If you think there might be some space between the group ahead and the group they're following, ask the marshall to check it out. It's their job.

Continuous putting. Get the heck out of the way. Go pick up the flag and wait for everyone else to finish.

Don't be a hero. Everyone want's to reach that short par 4 in one, or the long par 5 in two. Think about how many rounds have been ruined by hitting the club you shouldn't, and how many times you've actually pulled off that shot. A ball in play is so much easier to deal with.

Take the rake in to the trap with you. Saves lots of time.

Follow the flight of your ball. Learn the basic rules about hazards (red & yellow stakes), provisional ball, out of bounds.

[Noodles]

Enjoyed reading the list by Rough Stuff but I think you forgot one. How about the guy who hits it 150 yards with his driver and then proceeds to give his wife/partner a lesson in the middle of the fairway on the finer points of the swing. I can take slow play but this just makes me CRAZY.

Am I right, or what!!!!!

[Rough Stuff]

Am I right, or what!!!!!

Lol..................

[Farzin]

What about those people who just starting to learn and enjoy this great game. Should they never go on the course because some people like to play fast. or because they get so impatient that fly their ball over their head to get them going faster. Not everybody is as good as you guys. there are always some beginners and some people who come out to give it a try. They pay for it. Please don't call them hackers. We all started at some point. we get better with time, learn the rules and etiquette too. Don't discourage people to try because your standard of etiquette doesn't match a new beginner's.
one thing we should all object is overcrowding the courses and not allowing enough time between tee times. that's a big problem.
second big problem is marshals. I don't like it when they come and tell you to speed up when there is nowhere to go.

[Chieflongtee]

Hanifi. You bring up some very interesting points about respect. However I believe somewhere in Europe a golfer is not allowed on a real course until he reaches a certain level of play. Therefore beginners learn to play on par 3 courses and work their way up until they reach a certain level. I remember one of my first round of golfs on a real course. I did not belong there and it was a very unpleasant experience for my playing partners and myself. Come to think of it I would have been a lot better off learning on par 3's. BTW are you still hitting the Cleveland driver?

[Rough Stuff]

You missed my point Hanifi entirely. It has nothing about being new to the game, and there is NO EXCUSE for flying a ball over your head (I would never do anything that stupid, and you should report repeat offenders).

Even when I shot in the 110's, 120's, I still knew how to be efficient, because I learned the BASICS before I ever went out to course. But I see so many players with ZERO awareness. I see a bunch of guys standing around uncertain as to who should do what. These are the BASICS that should be learned before ever going onto a course. No one is asking you to shoot low.

Etiquette is required in any sport. You don't show up at a tennis court and barge on; you don't take over a baskeball court, etc., just like you wouldn't go to a guests house and start eating the turkey before it was served. Golf is the same, but rarely do I see new, beginner and even somewhat experienced golfers apply basic, simple courtesy that SPEEDS up the game as well.

PAR 3s are the place to LEARN golf, AFTER learning how to swing at a driving range or through instructors. The Par 3's still provide a challenge to new golfers.

[Jimmy]

This is my 30th anniversary of playing golf....and what I have seen over the years is the increased arrogance of golfers, who think they can just do whatever they want on a golf course. Years ago a marshal was a marshal in most cases, and now aday marshals are blind.

Years ago we were taught etiquette by the pros in junior golf clinics we used to hold every tuesday at the Hylands golf club. Ask yourself this question how many etiquette rules do you really know. And are they the right ones or ones you want to rationalize or justify. I believe all golf clubs should have a rules book for etiquette, like they do for the actual rules of golf.

Over the years golf has become a major commercialized business, the almighty dollar governs, and that is why in my opinion the game has gone to poop ! We should all treat the course, no matter which one as our home. From divots in the fairway to the ball marks on the green. To raking of the traps properly, how many times we walk into a trap to find our balls positioned in poorly raked, or just unraked traps.

How many guys/gals know how to repair a ball mark ? How many of us actually look for the ballmark that we knew we made, but we say forget about it. How many of us actually look for other ball marks to repair, while we are waiting for our partners to putt ?

Where do we position our golf bag when we approach the green, as close to where our ball sits on the green, or in a position that is between the pin and the next tee ? Do we use pull carts and walk them 10" from the green itself ? What about how we drive our golf carts, recklessly close to the greens, do we watchout for puddles or do we drive right through them, as a 6 year old would do when there is a puddle at the end of the driveway ?

If we take a new or begginer golfer out on the course, what time do we do it, when it is convenient for you, or when there is the least traffic on the course ? What preparation did you give this new golfer ? Is this golfer aware that walking on a golf course is very different from walking along Ottawa's pathways, or in the Gatineau Hills ? Are you looking back to see if you are slowing down play behind you ?

Why do golfers talk, clang clubs, take practice swings, cough, breakwind, when someone is about ready to hit any shot ? Maybe these guys just don't know to be quiet ? or else they are trying to break your concentration, because they want you to hit a bad shot ?

Putting Green is the biggest joke ! Where do you stand when someone is putting ????? In front of them or behind them ? The answer is no, stay clear of their rear view or front view. Who putts first, the guy furthest from the hole, and if he choses to finish off the 2 or 3 putt, let him, as long as he does not interfere with stepping on your line.

The one who putts out or holes first goes immediately to the pin, why because he is the ONE who SHOULD place the pin in the hole after the other group members finish their putting !

Provisional balls always to be used when a ball goes into the heavy, heavy rough or trees, out of bounds there is no question there.

Knowing the rules helps out alot.

Etiquette is for GENTLEMEN ! Remember this is a GENTLEMEN'S GAME, but over the years I see etiquette is becoming extinct, by arrogant and indifferent golfers.

My fingers are getting sore....stay tuned more to come....and I am sure you guys will have something to say about this post, you seem to always do

Yours truly,

[Farzin]

BTW are you still hitting the Cleveland driver?

Yes. I still hit that driver and I have often hit over 300 yards with it. But not always. That's why I wait until every body is clear ahead of me and I don't get pissed off at people ahead of me because I have to wait.
That's etiquette to me. I walk to my ball and prepare myself for my next shot to save some time. but I don't hit over peoples' head. Those who think that they are so good and show no patience at the golf courses are not fun to play with. Because as soon as they have a bad shot or start a bad round they make the game miserable for their playing partners. That's bad etiquette. Not all my partners hit as long as I do. But I enjoy playing with them and respect them. I don't call other people hackers, because they are out there to enjoy their time that they are paying for it. I consider myself an average player. I don't know all the rules, but so is everybody except Gary. I learn as I go along. I don't brag about my handicap, being official or not, because non of this courses are PGA or CPGA sanctioned courses. When was the last time an official event was held in either one. So official handicap doesn't apply to me until I play on those courses.

It's not me who decides who can play on a particular course. It's the course management. They don't ask me if I ever played golf before or what is my handicap before they allow me on the course. They want the money. If somebody has a problem with it, go talk to them. But don't call the people hackers because you play better than them. There will be more people playing better game than before like you and I. It's not an easy game by anymeans to take a lesson or two and there you got it.
Give them a chance.

Etiquette is required in any sport

Etiquette are required in any sport and from everyone not just the beginners.

[Rough Stuff]

Etiquette are required in any sport and from everyone not just the beginners.

Maybe you should actually read the posts before answering them. In my day, when someone made an argument like you're making, we were always told to walk away. Why? Because when you argue with a fool, no one can tell you apart.

[faldo]

Maybe you should actually read the posts before answering them. In my day, when someone made an argument like you're making, we were always told to walk away. Why? Because when you argue with a fool, no one can tell you apart.

Whoa, whoa with the rough stuff there Rough Stuff. Farzin enjoys his golf & the people he plays with. As he just said give them/him a chance. He just expressed an opinion. Sorry I'm not going to call either of you a Fool

We're all agreed there's a lot of guys/dolls out there who have no concept of correctness & maybe it's our fault. Us experienced types should be addressing these points when it's noticed.
-Take somebody out who's just learning.
-Interrupt a conversation you overhear on the putting green. They'll probably appreciate the correct point being explained.
-Suggest (not insist) to the group ahead why they should let you play thru.
-Play the courses where the Marshalls have cojones

Last summer we followed a dad & 2 12 years olds at Mtn. Crk. We watched one kid go up to take the pin out BUT still pulling his cart right up beside the pin.
I politely but very very loudly yelled "Would you please take your cart off the green?" The father started cursing at me/us for yelling at his son. My buddies said that we were yelling at him not them. They were at #12 so leaving the course from there was very easy.

Any thoughts on another way to handle this??

[Kilroy]

Any thoughts on another way to handle this??

Cell phone to the clubhouse ought to do it pretty quick

[Farzin]

Golf is a gentleman's game . Rough Stuff attitude displays he is not one, Therefore I decided not to respond directly to him.Now that there is a couple of responses, I would suggest to him to play another game more suitable to his attitude.

rough stuff

[Rough Stuff]

WEll sorry, Hanifi, but I just went through stating that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIGH SCORERS AND INEXPERIENCE, and I said YOU SHOULD NOT TOLERATE PEOPLE SHOOTING BALLS AT YOU and I said ETIQUETTE IS SOMETHING EVERYONE SHOULD LEARN.

And you repeated "Oh ya, well I paid, and I think shooting balls at me is not the answer."

:reallymad

If you want respect, show respect. Acknowledge understanding of the points, don't repeat your argument over and over. Maybe you should say what aspects of golf etiquette you feel are pointless.

I play with high handicappers ALL THE TIME and we have fun because we have no fault with our etiquette. As soon as you break that "social contract", don't expect it to be binding in your favour. Just as you can't spit in someone's soup at the mall, you "can't do" other things in other settings. It has nothing to do with "paying".

My point is if it speeds golf up AND creates a fun game, WHY NOT do it?

You seem to have a problem with the word hacker rather than the points of the discussion.

I agree with Jimmy 100%. I also agree with Hanifi 100% that shooting balls over people's head is an intolerable action.

[Kilroy]

Come on kids, let's get this back on track. The etiquitte in here is lacking somewhat.

[natgolfer]

Golf Etiquette Made Simple:

1. Be ready.
2. Play all shots in less than 40 seconds-OVGA recommendation.
3. Be quiet and literally, out of sight, when someone else is playing.
4. Clean up your mess-ball marks and divots.
5. Walk fast, swing easy-just keep up to the group in front.
6. When someone is playing very well, apply #3 above, and for God's sake, don't say things like, "Hey, you're 3 under," or, "If you keep playing this way, you will have a career game." Be quiet and give them every opportunity to continue their great play, just like you would want them to do if you were playing well.
7. Compliment good shots-sound AND ball flight will tell you if it is a good shot.
8. If you get angry, "suck it in," because tantrums negatively affect others' play.
9. Enjoy the fact that you are playing golf and not working.

[Jimmy]

I am surprised at the lack of responses on this very important issue, but maybe there is a reason for it ?

A few other points I would like to contribute on this subject are :

How do we walk down the fairway after we have hit our drives ? This is providing we are walking and not carting. Do we hold each other hands all the way to one's ball, when your ball is on the opposite side of the fairway ? Not proper etiquette.

Are we AWARE of others on the golf course, such as your group teeing off and there is a green close by, but it seems your group's fun and laughter will not interfere with a guy putting from another group.

The quiet factor ? Most guys think they are at a football or hockey game, using ball washers when someone is teeing off ? Rifling through there golf bag for the club they want to hit, talking and laughing while someone is putting or hitting. All of these are unacceptable, but how frequently do they happen ?

How many of us are trying out for the 4 Iron throwing contest for the 2004 Olympic Games at the Edgewood Golf Club ?

How many of us take 14 practice swings per shot, try John Daly's approach...Grip and Rip....You will be surprised what it can do for you !

How many of us YELL....(4)....when our ball heads in the vicinity of another player or group ?

Cell Phones ???? Do I need to say more on this one, won't be long before we bring our laptops too !

Attending the flag ? Do you know how to ? Then ask. What about the guys who think they never have to take a flag out or put one back in the hole after everyone is done. These special golfers all went to the school of arrogance. Watch these guys carefully, they rarely go after the divot they made on the fairway.

Now the big one...and I will get blasted on this ONE ! Drinking beer, smoking funny tobacco ??? Both of the above mentioned will improve your swing and attitude ? Again this is the commercialization, and the clubs want to improve there bottom line " Revenue ". Smoking cannabis is illegal so I do not think it is sanctioned by the courses, but I could be wrong ?

Garbage left on the course, bottles,cans,wrappers from food items etc. ?? Unacceptable...I am guilty of leaving cigarettes butts !

Plan your shot before it is your turn to shoot ! Many golfers prefer to watch and talk till it is their turn ??? Wrong !

On a golf cart and you split the fairway, drop one golfer off and the other goes to his ball to prepare for their shot.

Always keep up with the group ahead of you, maybe you will loose ground on one hole by 2 balls lost, but remember it is important to keep up with the group ahead of you. Who cares about the group behind you ??


If you are not a good golfer or want to learn about etiquette, play with "A" Class golfers, they "Generally" not "Always" have excellent etiquette. And if you think "A" Class golfers are arrogant, we are not, we care about the game, and eventhough we like to play with other "A" Class golfers, most games I play are with B,C,D Class players. And there are many golfers in this forum who have played golf with me.

And if you don't care about etiquette....well I really don't want to play golf with you. Because if you have an attitude of indifference, and I will play and do whatever I want, then I know what kind of person you are away from the course......! And if you want to know my answer to that one send me a private message and I will enlighten you !

I will think of my next topic...or maybe I will defer to the spring of 2004.
Enjoy the fall foilage !

[Rough Stuff]

It should also be noted for all that you can still have fun doing all this...so why NOT do it?

[Jimmy]

Rough Stuff you are absolutely correct, and thanks for bringing that fact to the forefront !

I enjoy the game of golf because " For Me " it is relaxing between shots, where I get to enjoy nature, and the walk(exercise), some good conversation with friends or clients.

The actual game for me takes 30 seconds per shot, and a little longer for a putt. The rest of the time it is to enjoy the peace and exercise.

The gripe I have is that too many golf courses are being built along noisy highways(roadways) or in residential neighbourhoods, where you put up with home improvements, mowers, kids, traffic at times.

Mount Cascades is one of my favourites and Eagle Creek because of the peacefullness you can actually experience between shots.

I think higher handicappers think we are " Anal " but in reality we are very personable, and enjoyable to be with. I think ?

Cheers

[Kilroy]

I think higher handicappers think we are " Anal "

I think you are lumping high handicappers with people who have not been taught the proper way to behave on a golf course. Unfortunatley that mistake feuls the fire when it comes to some low handicappers being viewed as arrogant.

[Andru]

I think higher handicappers think we are " Anal " but in reality we are very personable, and enjoyable to be with. I think ?

Cheers

If you read the thread from the beginning with an objective mind. The personable and enjoyable are not the best words to describe what is being exchanged.

I've maintained golf is too stuffy, too small minded and to exclusive.

Newbies do not know they're destroying your entire round and NO it's not obvious. The only thing obvious in golf is it's difficult. That's it. Everything else from the rules to the etiquette are not.

Keep that in mind that next time you're standing in the fairway steaming because the first one to putt out didn't run and grab the flag because GOD forbid that person were to take the extra 10 seconds at the end to return the flag or even WORSE. Geez moving while someone is putting. So what is the ruling there? Grab the flag or wait? Sarcasm before someone actually answers.

IT'S JUST GOLF!

Cheers

[Colby]

I am surprised at the lack of responses on this very important issue, but maybe there is a reason for it ?

The reason may be apathy or indiference, but it might be because most people agree that etiquette is important, they agree with the majority of points and they have nothing more to add.

How do we walk down the fairway after we have hit our drives ? This is providing we are walking and not carting. Do we hold each other hands all the way to one's ball, when your ball is on the opposite side of the fairway ? Not proper etiquette.

Does this mean that you can't walk up the fairway chatting with another golfer, or are you being literal and saying that holding hands on the golf course is a bad thing! If I wanted 4-5 hours of solitude and silence I would take up another sport. The average golf round for me is a social event.

Are we AWARE of others on the golf course, such as your group teeing off and there is a green close by, but it seems your group's fun and laughter will not interfere with a guy putting from another group.

This is a good point, and I fully agree that we need to be more aware of others around us. It also happens on a green when someone sinks a long putt or chips in. It can be very disturbing on the next tee box. There are a lot of people who do get excited with a good shot, and we need to have some patience with that, especially when it's a casual round on a public course (although I have heard lots of yelling on private courses too!)

The quiet factor ? Most guys think they are at a football or hockey game, using ball washers when someone is teeing off ? Rifling through there golf bag for the club they want to hit, talking and laughing while someone is putting or hitting. All of these are unacceptable, but how frequently do they happen ?

Agree, although I think this is covered by being more aware of the others around us.

How many of us are trying out for the 4 Iron throwing contest for the 2004 Olympic Games at the Edgewood Golf Club ?

Probably less than you think. I have played with a lot of people over the years as I usually go out as a single, and I have very rearely come across this. Usually it's one of my buddies who does it, and it's because he knows us. We have pretty much cured him of it through repeated ridicule

How many of us take 14 practice swings per shot, try John Daly's approach...Grip and Rip....You will be surprised what it can do for you !

Did you heckle Sergio with his re-gripping a couple of years back? Every golfer has a different pre-shot routine, including none. I golfed with a gentleman who stuck his ball on the tee and then took his position and hit it. Yes it's frustrating to watch, especially if they take divot after divot. Don't play with them or learn some more patience. They will always be around. I'm sure you have a pre-shot routine that will bug someone!

How many of us YELL....(4)....when our ball heads in the vicinity of another player or group ?

I always do, sometimes too often, as the ball doesn't end up all that close to the group in the estimated target area. It does happen too often though, although I usually find it happeneing on the lower-end public courses.

Cell Phones ???? Do I need to say more on this one, won't be long before we bring our laptops too !

Shut them off.

Attending the flag ? Do you know how to ? Then ask. What about the guys who think they never have to take a flag out or put one back in the hole after everyone is done. These special golfers all went to the school of arrogance. Watch these guys carefully, they rarely go after the divot they made on the fairway.

That's a pretty big assumption. I would consider it more inconsiderate than arrogant. And fixing divots and ball marks is more good citizenship than etiquitte. Let's not confuse the two.

Now the big one...and I will get blasted on this ONE ! Drinking beer, smoking funny tobacco ??? Both of the above mentioned will improve your swing and attitude ? Again this is the commercialization, and the clubs want to improve there bottom line " Revenue ". Smoking cannabis is illegal so I do not think it is sanctioned by the courses, but I could be wrong ?

Golf courses are there to make money, bottom line. Even private courses have a food and beverage minimum that you must meet. It's not going away. As for smoking pot, of course the courses don't sanction it, so it is foolish to suggest that they might by saying you might be wrong. Smoking pot is a personal choice, a risk that that person takes. I don't smoke anything or drink any alcoholic beverage, but as long as it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the game, I let things lie.

Garbage left on the course, bottles,cans,wrappers from food items etc. ?? Unacceptable...I am guilty of leaving cigarettes butts !

Again more good behaviour and citizenship rather than golf ettiquite.

Plan your shot before it is your turn to shoot ! Many golfers prefer to watch and talk till it is their turn ??? Wrong !

On a golf cart and you split the fairway, drop one golfer off and the other goes to his ball to prepare for their shot.

Always keep up with the group ahead of you, maybe you will loose ground on one hole by 2 balls lost, but remember it is important to keep up with the group ahead of you. Who cares about the group behind you ??

Agreed

If you are not a good golfer or want to learn about etiquette, play with "A" Class golfers, they "Generally" not "Always" have excellent etiquette. And if you think "A" Class golfers are arrogant, we are not, we care about the game, and eventhough we like to play with other "A" Class golfers, most games I play are with B,C,D Class players. And there are many golfers in this forum who have played golf with me.

Your arrogance shines through on this one. I'm glad you can come down out of the clouds and play with some B,C and D players once in a while. Most golfers I have played with have pretty good attitudes and their ettiquite is good. When I come across something I don't like, if they are someone who may become a frequent playing partner, I will mention it to them. If we can't agree, after we finish, I thank them for the game and probably won't play with them again.

And if you don't care about etiquette....well I really don't want to play golf with you. Because if you have an attitude of indifference, and I will play and do whatever I want, then I know what kind of person you are away from the course......! And if you want to know my answer to that one send me a private message and I will enlighten you !

And they probably don't want to play with someone like you. Not everyone gets along with everyone, and that's not a bad thing. We have the right associate with those we wish to associate with.

I will think of my next topic...or maybe I will defer to the spring of 2004.
Enjoy the fall foilage !

Goody, I can hardly wait, it will keep me warm all winter!