Viewer call ins

[NoBack]

Gary
Is there something in the rules of golf that say all rules violations should be called by someone "who is phsycally at the tournament"?

ex: Yesterday's violation called in from the US by a viewer on Paul Azinger, for his caddy pulling the flag out before a ball came to rest.

IMHO ......... this is bogus ............ why is it that ONLY in golf, can someone sitting on his couch, hundreds or even thousands of miles away, just call in and say "hey, this guy did this or this guy did that" and the fan gets indirectly involved with the outcome of the sport.

BTW the penalty call was very cheap...the ball was already past the hole, and unless it was "The Bugs Bunny Show" and there was a magnet in the green and a goffer pulling the ball back to the hole, it just WONT go in.

[Kilroy]

Interesting that neither player seemed to be aware of this rule at all until it was brought up afterwards. Both said it was bogus, since there was no intent to help anyone.

I guess if it was just regular fellas playing, not knowing the rule, or having helpfull fans sitting by the phone to assist us in policing ourselves...It would have gone unnoticed, and uncounted, and result in an invalid handicap calculation if the player recorded his round.

Just how is it that average joes are expected to know and apply all the rules by the book when the tour players obviously can't even get it right? I am not being critical of the players, I am astounded by the complexity of applying 32 rules of a stick and ball game.

[Chieflongtee]

Dan. Really. I wonder if there are any stats about your statement but it seems Golf has more rules than any other sport.

[Gary Hill]

If Tiger Wood's foot may have accidentally caused his ball to move, would you allow the testimony of his caddie?
His playing partners?
Nearby spectators?
Someone with binoculars who was 100 feet away?
Televison replays?

Of course you would. The objective is to make the CORRECT ruling.
Why would it matter if the spectator was "physically" within the boundaries of the course.

ALL available evidence is gathered to come to a conclusion.
It should not (and, in fact, does not) matter how the possible breach was brought to the intention of the offficials.

The winner in stroke play golf is the player with the lowest score at the END of the tournament.
Penalty strokes are added to the player's score at the END of each round.
This is very different from other sports where opposing teams play a timed event. It is impossible to go back to the second period of hockey game and declare that a puck actually crossed the goal line but was missed by the officials at that time.

I agree 100% that the Rule applied to Azinger is BOGUS!!!

The ball was hardly moving and Azinger's caddie didn't actually kick the ball in the hole or anything. If the players chose to overlook the Rule, I don't see why the Rules officials didn't look the other way also.

Jesper Parnevik being disqualified for an incorrect scorecard in the British Open is just stupid. He was nowhere near the top of the leaderboard. Surely some common sense needs to be applied to the actual Rules.

If fact, Tiger having to go all the way back to the tee AND incur a stroke and distance penalty in the British Open is cruel and unusal punishment. He certainly didn't intend to lose that ball.

What about Phil Mickelson in the British Open, he merely adresses the ball and grounds his putter and the stupid ball moves all by itself in the strong wind? He didn't do a thing and has to add a stroke. That is a brutal Rule.

What about Aaron Baddelely being 35 seconds late for his tee-time in the PGA Championsip? Why give him a penalty? That is really stupid. The golfers are going to be there all day anyway.

I think we should do away with Rules officials and scorecards and permit "abouta" scores. "As best as I can recall I shot abouta 74"

[Kilroy]

Your point is well taken Gary. The rules are the rules. This one happens to be obscure. That coupled with the call in by a TV spectator makes it pretty outlandish.

I almost believed you when you opened your sarcasm with " I agree 100%" Seriously though, I find the calling in of rulings by armchair officials very odd indeed. As you said, it does not happen in other sports.

[Gary Hill]

Armchair officials do not make rulings or call penalties. They only bring possible breaches to the attention of officials for further assessment.

Perhaps this example would help.

Lets say a player hits a tee shot out of bounds. A person who is near the ball throws it back onto the course without the players knowledge.
Another spectator who is outside the fence witnesses the action.

You wouldn't want to deny this person the opportunity to inform the officials solely because he was not "technically" within the margins of the course.

BTW -
The penalty applied to Paul Azinger has nothing to do with Rule 24-1 (removal of an obstruction which might influence the movement of the ball)

Rule 17-1 allows the flagstick to be removed ONLY with the authority of the player BEFORE he plays the stroke. Otherwise, the flagstick MAY NOT BE REMOVED by anyone.

Rule 17-2 (Azinger's penalty) clarifies that if Rule 17-1 is breached by a fellow-competitor or his caddie, the penalty is applied to the fellow-competitor.

It is irrelevant whether or not Fred Funk's ball would have hit the flagstick.

I don't agree at all that the Rule addressing the removal of the flagstick is "obscure".

[NoBack]

Not the same thing Gary......someone actually on the course and someone 1000 miles away is definately not the same thing. All I was saying was that they should not allow armchair spectators make the call, and let the rules officials on site do their jobs.

I think you read more into that

I think we should do away with Rules officials and scorecards and permit "abouta" scores. "As best as I can recall I shot abouta 74"

[Gary Hill]

I gave an example of someone who was 10 feet outside the boundary of the course. 10 feet, 1000 feet, 1000 miles.... How far "off" the course before you are denied access to the officials?

Hockey is played on a surface 200 feet long. With 4 officials, it is possible for them to determine whether a puck has left the playing area.

Golf is played on 200 acres. It would be impracticable for officials to be with every player and in every possible place where they might hit a ball.

The only reasonable solution is to allow ALL available evidence, whether or not that evidence comes from inside or outside the playing area.

[LobWedge]

I think the Tour would rather not take rules cues from viewers, but they also don't want to alienate their fan base either. They realize that it's Joe Public that buys the products from the sponsors that generates the revenue that pays the big prize money to the winners.

The Tour has been working very hard to lose the eliteist image, so shutting down a fan who takes the time to point out a violation would not be smart. Bad press like that travels fast.

[Gary Hill]

Just how is it that average joes are expected to know and apply all the rules by the book when the tour players obviously can't even get it right?

It is a mistake to assume that just because someone is a professional that they have any more knowledge of the rules than the average person. (Saturday morning radio programs are a perfect example).

PGA Tours players always have instant access to a Rules official, so their first hand knowledge of the Rules is not a big priority to them.

Also, I would doubt that any NASCAR driver could quote the allowable engine specifications for their car, but they will be the one disqualified if the car does not conform to the Rules.

Participation at the professional level does not equate to complete knowledge of the rules.

It would have gone unnoticed, and uncounted, and result in an invalid handicap calculation if the player recorded his round.

There is a difference between not knowing about a penalty and not including a known penalty in your score.
A penalty that goes unnoticed and uncounted does not invalidate your handicap score.

[Kilroy]

It is a mistake to assume that just because someone is a professional that they have any more knowledge of the rules than the average person.

That is very true, judging the quality of many "professional" services.

I thought that PGA tour pros were expected to know the rules of golf. My mistake.

[Gary Hill]

No. PGA Tour players are only required to cry like friggin' babys whenever they are assessed a penalty. :cryin

[Kilroy]

A penalty that goes unnoticed and uncounted does not invalidate your handicap score.

Hmmm.... this seems contrary to fully applying all the rules in order for a handicap to be valid.

It also seems unfair to those like yourself who know all the rules, playing against a large field of players who do not. You would be penalizing yourself in situations where others would not. Nobody for example on that green saw this as a violation, but of course had it been your caddy, you'd call it on yourself. Man, that bites.

[Gary Hill]

Unfortunately, this opens the theoretical question of:

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, does it make a noise?

You make a stroke in a bunker. On your backswing, a few grains of sand are dislodged but nobody notices. Has the Rule been breached?

Theoretcally, from the facts presented: yes.
But in practical terms, if nobody noticed how would we know these facts?

OMG, I have a headache already.

[Kilroy]

WooHoo! I gave Gary the headache for once!
Feels like a small victory

[Gary Hill]

What makes you think this is the first time? :shot

[1972Apex]

Only one problem with your theory on television viewers being allowed to call in penalties Gary... it is patently unfair. The extra television viewing 'rules officials' applies only to the players who are being shown on television. At the golf course all of the players play the same holes and have the same number of rules officials around the course. On TV it is a television director who determines who gets shown.. which means players in contention and big names in most cases. Those players have an unfair disadvantage. It's like in hockey if they only put the replay camera on one team's net. If the PGA wants to use television cameras and/or replay it should be in the hands of a trained rules official and be equally applied to ALL players regardless of their popularity with the TV audience or their standing in the tournament. If Paul Azinger's group had not happened to be shown on television for that particular shot it is a penalty that would have never been even noticed (and quite frankly would have been better off that way because it in no way impacted the tournament or anyone's score). For all we know 20 other golfers did the exact same thing but were not on TV at the time...

I gave an example of someone who was 10 feet outside the boundary of the course. 10 feet, 1000 feet, 1000 miles.... How far "off" the course before you are denied access to the officials?

Hockey is played on a surface 200 feet long. With 4 officials, it is possible for them to determine whether a puck has left the playing area.

Golf is played on 200 acres. It would be impracticable for officials to be with every player and in every possible place where they might hit a ball.

The only reasonable solution is to allow ALL available evidence, whether or not that evidence comes from inside or outside the playing area.

[Gary Hill]

I would agree with your premise if cameras were the ONLY method to determining when a Rule has been breached.

Players determine their own penalties and other means are used ONLY in special cases when a question arises.

Other means may include officials, players, spectators, and video evidence.

(and quite frankly would have been better off that way because it in no way impacted the tournament or anyone's score).

Don't call a penalty if it doesnt impact the tournament ?????

Tee the ball 2 feet in front the markers on a 500 yard hole?
Move your ball marker up 6 inchest on a 75 foot putt?
Kick the ball out from behind a tree if you are already lying 10?

Ask Paul Azinger if it impacted his score !!!

[NoBack]

Whatever did they do BEFORE the television??? Did they have to actually watch what was being done on the course?

For all we know 20 other golfers did the exact same thing but were not on TV at the time...

Exactly !!

[1972Apex]

C'mon Gary you know as well as I do that it only impacted his score because a cheesy penalty was called by an overzelous viewer who only had access to one group on television at that particular time .... You are twisting my words.

I would agree with your premise if cameras were the ONLY method to determining when a Rule has been breached.

Players determine their own penalties and other means are used ONLY in special cases when a question arises.

Other means may include officials, players, spectators, and video evidence.



Don't call a penalty if it doesnt impact the tournament ?????

Tee the ball 2 feet in front the markers on a 500 yard hole?
Move your ball marker up 6 inchest on a 75 foot putt?
Kick the ball out from behind a tree if you are already lying 10?

Ask Paul Azinger if it impacted his score !!!

[Gary Hill]

Whatever did they do BEFORE the television??? Did they have to actually watch what was being done on the course?

Who is "they" and what would "they" be watching?
Rules officials do NOT spy on the golfers looking for Rules violations!!
Rules officials do NOT call penalties on players!!
Rules officials simply make themselves available to players who have a question for them.
A Rule in question is explained to the player and the player adds his penalty to his scorecard before it is returned.
Neither the Rules official nor the Committee is allowed to alter the scorecard.

[Gary Hill]

C'mon Gary you know as well as I do that it only impacted his score because a cheesy penalty was called by an overzelous viewer who only had access to one group on television at that particular time .... You are twisting my words.

Help me out with which penalties are the "cheesy penalties".

None of the penalties in my Rule book are underlined in red, so sometimes I have trouble distinguishing the "real" penalties from the "cheesy" penalties.

[1972Apex]

One thing I will say for you Gary... you are a stickler for the rules... even when they do not make any sense. And TV viewers calling in to report penalties doesn't make any sense. When all the players are monitored by TV cameras on the entire course for every shot then I will agree with you that TV can be used to call penalties. You'll have to point out to me sometime where in the rule book it outlines that television spectators are designated as assistant officials.

Help me out with which penalties are the "cheesy penalties".

None of the penalties in my Rule book are underlined in red, so sometimes I have trouble distinguishing the "real" penalties from the "cheesy" penalties.

[Gary Hill]

Televsion viewers are not Rules officials nor Rules officials assistants.
They cannot call penalties nor make rulings.

They can only bring possible Rules infractions to the attention of the Committee.

Who else is allowed to to do this?

ANYONE; players, caddies, spectators, marshals, greenkeepers, bar cart girls, attendants overhearing a conversation in the locker room,... ANYONE.

I will list the alternatives and you tell me which one makes sense to you.

1. A player picks up his ball and drops it in the hole. It is only a penalty if witnessed by the Committee. No one may inform the Committe of this act.

2. Only players may approach the Committe. Caddies witnessing a penalty must pretend it didnt happen.

3. Only players and caddies may approach the Committee. Five thousand spectators around the green witnessing a penalty must pretend it didnt happen.

4. Only players, caddies, and spectators "within the margins of the course" may approach the Committee. Spectators outside the boundary fence must disregard any penalties they witness.

5. 200,000 Rules officials will be placed around the course at arm's length to insure that no infraction is missed.

[gbower]

While watching a hockey game last night I tried to let the official know that he missed a penalty but no one listened. Maybe I should have used my cell phone and called the head official. I feel it's a game of honor and if it's to be called they should know it when it happens and call it then, not an hour later. Just not right

[alice]

On the telecast this afternoon one of the PGA rules officials said that they get fans who are out on the course watching the action occasionally witness things that go unnoticed. They bring it to the attention of the rules people and it gets investigeted. If they do it the same for everyone each time then no problem. The fact that Funk's shot and Azinger's caddie removing the flag was caught on a national TV telecast just comes with the territory. I think the fact the ball would not have been influenced makes it a shame but the rules are the rules and they are the same for all.

[NoBack]

Gary.........

where did i say rules official SPY on golfers?
where did i say rules officials call penalties?
where did i say rules officials alter the scorecards?

you werent getting my point.......... it was simply that a spectator sitting 1000 miles away and not on the other side of a fence at the course, should not effect the outcome of a tournament. I never said the penalty was NOT a penalty....just that is is bogus call because of "when" he took the flag out of the hole (when it was past the hole). :jitter

And then u post this...........

Televsion viewers are not Rules officials nor Rules officials assistants.

And when I said "what did they do before television" i meant before golf was actually televised to millions of viewers? They relied on themselves to assess the penalties.

[Rough Stuff]

Even the LAW (which to me is far more binding and of concern than the rules of golf) looks at INTENT. I assume the intent of the flag rule is not to interfere with a ball that has the potential to go in.

SURELY the rules officials can say "Yes, it is clearly a penalty, yet the intent of the rule is "so and so", and clearly the ball had no potential of going in...if his fellow competitor agrees, we will wave the penalty".

Does this not make sense? If not, why not? Why goose step along? (I know this is too severe an analogy, but its the right idea).

[Gary Hill]

and let the rules officials on site do their jobs

I did not quote you as saying that Rules officials spy on golfers.
I was trying to explain that, contrary to popular belief, it is NOT the job of Rules officials to watch the players, call penalties, or assess penalty strokes.

it was simply that a spectator sitting 1000 miles away and not on the other side of a fence at the course, should not effect the outcome of a tournament.

Could you give me a reason why not?

I never said the penalty was NOT a penalty....just that is is bogus call because of "when" he took the flag out of the hole (when it was past the hole).

Rule 17-2b. In stroke play, if a fellow-competitor or his caddie attends, removes or holds up the flagstick without the competitor’s authority or prior knowledge while the competitor is making a stroke or his ball is in motion, the fellow-competitor shall incur the penalty for breach of this Rule.

I can't find anything in that Rule that exempts the player from penalty if the ball is moving slowly or if the ball has proceeded past the hole.

They relied on themselves to assess the penalties.

I agree. I can think of only a few times when an incident was reported by a viewer. Ironically, one those incidents also involved Paul Azinger. He was disqualified from the 1991 Doral Tournament after he moved a stone in a hazard while taking his stance. Craig Stadler's disqualification at the 1987 Andy Williams Open after kneeling on a towel is the only other incident that comes to mind.

[natgolfer]

Proposal: With all the money that the PGA Tour makes during its tournament schedule, I feel that they should hire 72 rules officials for each tournament, with 3 placed on the par 3's, 4 on the par 4's and 5 on the par 5's. These officials should have to wear striped shirts, have roller blades on their feet and whistles in their mouths so that the enforcement of the rules of golf would be solely the responsibility of the officials. Like hockey, the players would then be free to try to deliberately breach as many rules as they could to create a distinct advantage for themselves, and those watching the tournament on TV or in person would have no say in the outcome of a players' final score, in spite of the video evidence that the players actually cheated-just like hockey. Golfers who have disputes with each other over the rules should fight, until separated by an official-just like hockey. Is that what you all want?

Golf is an honourable, gentleman's game, whose rules are ideally enforced by each individual who plays the game, and that is what makes the game superior to all others.

Team Azinger broke a rule, plain and simple, deserved to be penalized, and it is irrelevant, as to who made the "committee" aware of it. That's golf, folks.

How would you all feel if, come Sunday afternoon, Azinger beats Mike Weir by one stroke and was not penalized for his obvious rules enfraction that was caught on tape? I can just hear your whining. "Not fair! Azinger cheated!"

Years ago in a tournament, while I was addressing a short putt, the ball moved. I stepped away, stated the obvious, penalized myself one stroke and moved the ball back. My three "fellow competitors," who did not see the ball move, thought that I was nuts for calling myself and wanted me to "forget it." What upset me the most was not the stroke penalty, but the fact that they were all encouraging me to cheat.

Now, if this happened to you, would you call the penalty on yourself?