Do I Record A Game for Handicap

[jvincent]

It's just too much to ask to come to an agreement with someone on what your "likely" score is.

But you don't need to come to an agreement with anyone but yourself, so that should be easy on most days.

It's like the "aborted stroke" vs "whiffed ball" scenario. It's up to the player to say whether or not he intended to make a stroke and nobody else.

[Big Johnny69]

But you don't need to come to an agreement with anyone but yourself, so that should be easy on most days.

It's like the "aborted stroke" vs "whiffed ball" scenario. It's up to the player to say whether or not he intended to make a stroke and nobody else.

But this likely score is based on match play, and in the manual it says come to an agreement. That implies others, if it's just myself I don't need to come an agreement. I'll decide right then and there.

[nhwott5]

golf is a game of honesty, intention makes up so much of the rules. you must have integrity to play, and to score properly.

if you feel you would "make the putt" then you count one stroke, if you feel you might make it, then 2 strokes,

all about your belief

[jvincent]

Here's the definition for Most Likely Score. As you can see, it's all up to you.

Most Likely Score
A “most likely score” is the score a player must post for handicap purposes if a
hole is started but not completed or if the player is conceded a stroke. The most
likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in a player’s best
judgment, the number of strokes the player would need to take to complete the
hole from that position more than half the time. This number may not exceed the
player’s Equitable Stroke Control limit. (See Section 4-3.)

[Big Johnny69]

golf is a game of honesty, intention makes up so much of the rules. you must have integrity to play, and to score properly.

if you feel you would "make the putt" then you count one stroke, if you feel you might make it, then 2 strokes,

all about your belief

He said/she said. Mes thinks mes will stay clear of match play. Take all "iffy" scenarios out of the equation. I'd rather not have someone question my integrity. Keep it to medal play where you have to finish the hole regardless is all good by me.

[jvincent]

But this likely score is based on match play, and in the manual it says come to an agreement.

I think you're mixing up the part of the Rules which says that disputes need to be resolved (or a claim made) before the start of the next hole in match play.

In a match you don't actually post a score.

However, the handicap system has a procedure for dealing with matches that allows scores to be posted.

[Big Johnny69]

I think you're mixing up the part of the Rules which says that disputes need to be resolved (or a claim made) before the start of the next hole in match play.

In a match you don't actually post a score.

However, the handicap system has a procedure for dealing with matches that allows scores to be posted.

I did read it wrong, but I wasn't confused with the situation you posted above. I just mis-read the manual to mean something else.

Regardless, all it would take would be to be playing with someone who checks your score later and complains. We have a few at our club who are handicap hawks....I'd rather just not have to deal with it.


But after reading about half of the manual today, I do understand handicapping a little better, but don't agree with everything in there regarding certain things. I wonder how often the manual and all it's contents are reviewed?

[BC MIST]

Regardless, all it would take would be to be playing with someone who checks your score later and complains. We have a few at our club who are handicap hawks....I'd rather just not have to deal with it.

If you read Dave Pelz "Putt Like The Pros" and even, perhaps in his "Putting Bible," there are charts showing the PROBABILITY of making a putt of specific distances. Tour professionals have an approximate 50/50 chance of making a 7-8 putt. As you are not a Tour professional, for you to have a 50/50 chance of making a putt, the distance may drop to say, 6'. Therefore, it would be reasonable to say that if you have a 6' putt, or less, it's in. Anything more, count a 2 putt. This is based on YOUR laws of probability as established by your current skill level. Consider too, that if you have 6' putt with a 3' break, you are NOT likely to make this and so you should add two strokes. None of this is with CERTAINTY, but just the probability of happening.

Now, what are your odds of making the 30 footer that you mentioned? Answer: possible, but highly unlikely. Count 2 putts. BTW: For Tour professionals, they make roughly 8% of their 30 footers.

IMO, simply having an understanding of what MOST LIKELY means in terms of scoring while playing matches, should encourage golfers to include these games and not just medal games.

Becoming RCGA Handicap Programme certified and doing much work with the members at my club, I came to the realization that MOST golfers had inaccurate factors because they lacked the information necessary to have accurate ones. With the correct information, I know that things have improved greatly, but there are still many who choose what scores they will enter, if any. Do you have a Handicap chairperson at your club who disseminates the information to members? Not likely and this is characteristic of many clubs, and those who may keep handicaps through other means.

I proudly post ALL of my scores ( at least the ones that I remember) and play by The Rules, but I would wager that I am the exception in the whole scheme of things, and not the rule. How many golfer do not know the rules or take advantage of situations to get lower/higher scores, to alter their factors? It is not uncommon.

I am soon going to compare the number of times each member played this year, to the number of scores posted, to see what may need to be done to improve the accuracy of our members factors, other than taking their handicap AWAY from them. Yes, this can be done.

[nhwott5]

Geoff, is the little tournament you guys play here not a match play form? the "fun days" you would then have to skip on those as well, then no?

[nhwott5]

i post every score i have unless i have played in a scramble or soemthing similar where i am not playing all shots. or the very odd time i declare a practice round ( which of course is declared prior to the start of the round)

i know of a few ( more than a few even) members who pick and choose what to enter. one player specifically who said " well all my rounfds latel have been about 85 or so, so no point inentering them, they are same has my index" well lers just say t hat if and when i meet these players in club sanctionned tourney i report to the commitee and make sure they are DQ'd. you must have a VALID handicap, you do not have a right to pick and choose what you will enter, if you play it enter it, it is a game of intergrity

[Big Johnny69]

Geoff, is the little tournament you guys play here not a match play form? the "fun days" you would then have to skip on those as well, then no?

They are, but the match play is not mandatory, I can just go and play a regular round of golf if I want to.

[Big Johnny69]

If you read Dave Pelz "Putt Like The Pros" and even, perhaps in his "Putting Bible," there are charts showing the PROBABILITY of making a putt of specific distances. Tour professionals have an approximate 50/50 chance of making a 7-8 putt. As you are not a Tour professional, for you to have a 50/50 chance of making a putt, the distance may drop to say, 6'. Therefore, it would be reasonable to say that if you have a 6' putt, or less, it's in. Anything more, count a 2 putt. This is based on YOUR laws of probability as established by your current skill level. Consider too, that if you have 6' putt with a 3' break, you are NOT likely to make this and so you should add two strokes. None of this is with CERTAINTY, but just the probability of happening.

Now, what are your odds of making the 30 footer that you mentioned? Answer: possible, but highly unlikely. Count 2 putts. BTW: For Tour professionals, they make roughly 8% of their 30 footers.

IMO, simply having an understanding of what MOST LIKELY means in terms of scoring while playing matches, should encourage golfers to include these games and not just medal games.

Becoming RCGA Handicap Programme certified and doing much work with the members at my club, I came to the realization that MOST golfers had inaccurate factors because they lacked the information necessary to have accurate ones. With the correct information, I know that things have improved greatly, but there are still many who choose what scores they will enter, if any. Do you have a Handicap chairperson at your club who disseminates the information to members? Not likely and this is characteristic of many clubs, and those who may keep handicaps through other means.

I proudly post ALL of my scores ( at least the ones that I remember) and play by The Rules, but I would wager that I am the exception in the whole scheme of things, and not the rule. How many golfer do not know the rules or take advantage of situations to get lower/higher scores, to alter their factors? It is not uncommon.

I am soon going to compare the number of times each member played this year, to the number of scores posted, to see what may need to be done to improve the accuracy of our members factors, other than taking their handicap AWAY from them. Yes, this can be done.

Like I said earlier, I'm done with match play so you can take all your Pelz charts, stats and what not and use them elsewhere because you are not going to change my mind. I don't agree with the way the handicap manual deals with that, so in saying so I just won't play in match play anymore. Regular and tournament rounds of golf are much easier to maintain and a much truer reflection of your skill level, in my opinion anyways.

[nhwott5]

and that of course is your right to choose. if you do not feel the way the handicap system deals with match play is fair, well liek you say, just do not play in any of them. the important thing to remeber is to post all yor scores, whether you play in match or stroke whatever. doesn't matter if you liek the system or not, just follow it right?

[Big Johnny69]

and that of course is your right to choose. if you do not feel the way the handicap system deals with match play is fair, well liek you say, just do not play in any of them. the important thing to remeber is to post all yor scores, whether you play in match or stroke whatever. doesn't matter if you liek the system or not, just follow it right?

Exactly, and I have no problem posting my scores for regular and tournament rounds.


The only rounds I don't post are the rounds when I decide to go out and work on a few things. Hitting two balls here and there. Trying a chip or a putt over, seeing as how I don't make it to the range, I have to throw in the odd practice round here and there.

[BC MIST]

The only rounds I don't post are the rounds when I decide to go out and work on a few things. Hitting two balls here and there. Trying a chip or a putt over, seeing as how I don't make it to the range, I have to throw in the odd practice round here and there.

And doing what you just described is covered in the handicap system in that playing two or more balls(practice round) renders any score invalid. I do this frequently in the fall when the course is quiet and is a great way to practice various shots. However, there are some golfers who often declare their good or bad rounds as practice rounds so as not to have their inaccurate factors altered. The handicap system suggests ways of dealing with these guys and that is why having an active handicap committee at one's club, is extremely important. Otherwise this kind of cheating becomes rampant.

With a thorough understanding of the whole handicap system it becomes apparent that the system is very good and the fairest way of ensuring accurate factors. This includes the part of posting match play scores meaning that posting these scores using the MOST LIKELY SCORE concept, means a far more valid factor than NOT posting them. I included Pelz statistical information to show what MOST LIKELY really means in terms of what scores to post so that those who want to have an accurate factor and who did not know what was required of them, may now know. What is required regarding match play scores makes perfect sense. By anyone not agreeing with it and NOT posting a match play score makes their factor a lot more INACCURATE than the imperfection of counting a 30' putt as 2 putts when the possibility of making it exists.

There are a couple of Rules of Golf that I don't agree with but I still play golf and play by those rules that I may think unfair. Interestingly, in my work with the rules certification and other discussions, my previous lack of understanding and subsequent "seeing the light" about why the rule exists has certainly opened my mind.

[nhwott5]

well said.

you of course havew the right to declare any round a practice, round, buyt you must do so BEFORE playing, not after once you have seen you score and thinkit will alter your handicap.

now if you never , ever will play any sort of competitive golf, tghen fine don;t keepo a handicap and do what you want, nothign wrong with that, but just be sure never to play a competitive round.
some people just want to go out and whack a ball around, and that is fine, but if you are going to keep score, well then do it right.

[Big Johnny69]

And doing what you just described is covered in the handicap system in that playing two or more balls(practice round) renders any score invalid. I do this frequently in the fall when the course is quiet and is a great way to practice various shots. However, there are some golfers who often declare their good or bad rounds as practice rounds so as not to have their inaccurate factors altered. The handicap system suggests ways of dealing with these guys and that is why having an active handicap committee at one's club, is extremely important. Otherwise this kind of cheating becomes rampant.

With a thorough understanding of the whole handicap system it becomes apparent that the system is very good and the fairest way of ensuring accurate factors. This includes the part of posting match play scores meaning that posting these scores using the MOST LIKELY SCORE concept, means a far more valid factor than NOT posting them. I included Pelz statistical information to show what MOST LIKELY really means in terms of what scores to post so that those who want to have an accurate factor and who did not know what was required of them, may now know. What is required regarding match play scores makes perfect sense. By anyone not agreeing with it and NOT posting a match play score makes their factor a lot more INACCURATE than the imperfection of counting a 30' putt as 2 putts when the possibility of making it exists.

There are a couple of Rules of Golf that I don't agree with but I still play golf and play by those rules that I may think unfair. Interestingly, in my work with the rules certification and other discussions, my previous lack of understanding and subsequent "seeing the light" about why the rule exists has certainly opened my mind.

No doubt and I agree. But I don't like the fact that based on the "likelyhood" of something I have to add more strokes to my score. Which is why the only match play I'll play next year will be Intersectionals. Other than that, I'll steer clear.

And as for posting good or bad rounds while playing two balls, I decide that before I head out. If a round goes south, so be it, it still goes in the system. Seeing as how I may play most of my rounds as a single, I will usually hit two or three balls from the first tee and play how I feel for the rest of the round. These scores do not go in the system, as they should not. Although I have made some pretty good scores playing best ball by myself.

[Kilroy]

I don't like the fact that based on the "likelyhood" of something I have to add more strokes to my score. Which is why the only match play I'll play next year will be Intersectionals.

Not sure how you are connecting the dots here.

In match play holes are won or lost. The number of your strokes taken are only relevant to the match when comparing scores on holes played to completion.


Scenario Match play, par 4.
A & B are in the fairway. Both are 12 handicaps. B hits to the green 25' from the hole. A puts one OB, and another in the water. A conceeds the hole to B.

• A loses the hole.
  A marks an ESC max (a double bogey 6x) for his handicap which has no bearing in the match, it's just for his handicap.
• B wins the hole
  B applys the most likely score due to an early concession by A, and cards a 4 on the hole just for his handicap.

Most people in B's position would try for the birdie putt "for the sorecard". I don't see any problem with carding the bird for your handicap if you happen to make the putt.

I don't see how scoring the hole for your handicap by the rules of handicapping can interefere with your match play

[Big Johnny69]

Not sure how you are connecting the dots here.

In match play holes are won or lost. The number of your strokes taken are only relevant to the match when comparing scores on holes played to completion.


Scenario Match play, par 4.
A & B are in the fairway. Both are 12 handicaps. B hits to the green 25' from the hole. A puts one OB, and another in the water. A conceeds the hole to B.

• A loses the hole.
  A marks an ESC max (a double bogey 6x) for his handicap which has no bearing in the match, it's just for his handicap.
• B wins the hole
  B applys the most likely score due to an early concession by A, and cards a 4 on the hole just for his handicap.

Most people in B's position would try for the birdie putt "for the sorecard". I don't see any problem with carding the bird for your handicap if you happen to make the putt.

I don't see how scoring the hole for your handicap by the rules of handicapping can interefere with your match play

I'm going by the assumption that once the hole is conceded you stop play, you don't finish it out. Which is usually the case when I play. Once conceded you pick up your ball and move on to the next hole. I guess I could finish out every hole, but sometimes the other guys (if they are playing match as well) just want to move on so I don't want to hold them up.

Besides, I don't play that much match play, so I'm really not worried about it affecting my handicap.

[Kilroy]

So if you stop play just keep the above in mind to make the round acceptable for your cap. Nothing gets spoiled.

[Big Johnny69]

So if you stop play just keep the above in mind to make the round acceptable for your cap. Nothing gets spoiled.

But where I have a problem is when your opponent concedes the hole and picks up your marker for you. I now don't get the chance to attempt the putt, be it from 3 ft or 30 ft. Where with the "likelyhood" scenario I'm supposed to add two strokes if my putt is long. This is my beef with the match play handicapping rules. It's happened before to me, although I wasn't aware of the match play rules for handicappping purposes. I'll keep them in mind for next time, if and when I play match play.

[nhwott5]

i think the problem is that you are not willing to go by the "likelyhood" scenerio. if you are 30 feet, you are not likely to make the putt, simple as that. yes sometimes you might drain it, but not lielly, so it is a 2 putt ofr cap. it is not like it ah=happens all the time andyour cap is going to be way out of whack. it is not hard to figure, just seems you do not want use it, which is fine sine you have stated you will just not play match play, but then you say you will, in intersectinoals, so just be sure you follow the handicap rules!

[Big Johnny69]

i think the problem is that you are not willing to go by the "likelyhood" scenerio. if you are 30 feet, you are not likely to make the putt, simple as that. yes sometimes you might drain it, but not lielly, so it is a 2 putt ofr cap. it is not like it ah=happens all the time andyour cap is going to be way out of whack. it is not hard to figure, just seems you do not want use it, which is fine sine you have stated you will just not play match play, but then you say you will, in intersectinoals, so just be sure you follow the handicap rules!

You're right. I don't like the "likelyhood" scenario. As most of us know, in golf you just never know what may happen. But for Intersectionals I'll be sure to abide by the rules.

[hackzaw]

I can see Geoff's point. Let's say you've got a 10' putt straight uphill - no break. Pretty good chance you might make it. In this case, maybe even better than 50/50. The problem it seems to me, is that this scoring system always defaults to the higher score than what you may actually make. There's no opportunity to "make it". And realistically, you couldn't give yourself anything outside of 3-4 feet.

How about those scenario's on a par 5 where your opponent blows 2 balls OB, and your drive is in the fairway, and the hole is conceded. Can you realisitically say you were going to go for the green and two putt for a kick-in birdie? Or are you "forced" to card a 5 based on how par 5's are typically played.

How about a hole that had a conceded 3' slippery downhill putt. If I miss it, I'll surely 3 putt, but if I make it, I'm in the hole in 1? What get's carded here?

All in all, it's not necessarily a true reflection of the players ability. It's an estimate of the players ability.

[Kilroy]

In the bigger picture, if that happens occasionaly (probably rare) over your last 20 rounds I'd doubt the impact on your 'cap would be significant.

[BC MIST]

Two things are almost certain: (1) if one has a 30' putt, one is NOT going to make it.(Rare exception) (2) if one has a 4' putt one IS going to make it.(Rare exception) Therefore, abiding by this handicap system RULE, the resulting differential will almost CERTAINLY reflect how one played that day and MUST be included in his total, otherwise the golfer is guilty of "failure to post."

If a golfer disagrees with the MOST LIKELY SCORE concept, then logically, he must also disagree with Equitable Stroke Control. ( ESC.) If he makes a snowman on a par 4, he saves TWO STROKES because he only has to count a 6. But if we apply MOST LIKELY SCORE to a match, the probability of an accurate score, is ALMOST 100%.

Now, knowing what ESC prevents, makes it is to understand why it is essential for a handicap factor to be accurate. Disregarding MOST LIKELY SCORE in a match guarantees a less than accurate/honest factor.

[Big Johnny69]

Two things are almost certain: (1) if one has a 30' putt, one is NOT going to make it.(Rare exception) (2) if one has a 4' putt one IS going to make it.(Rare exception) Therefore, abiding by this handicap system RULE, the resulting differential will almost CERTAINLY reflect how one played that day and MUST be included in his total, otherwise the golfer is guilty of "failure to post."

If a golfer disagrees with the MOST LIKELY SCORE concept, then logically, he must also disagree with Equitable Stroke Control. ( ESC.) If he makes a snowman on a par 4, he saves TWO STROKES because he only has to count a 6. But if we apply MOST LIKELY SCORE to a match, the probability of an accurate score, is ALMOST 100%.

Now, knowing what ESC prevents, makes it is to understand why it is essential for a handicap factor to be accurate. Disregarding MOST LIKELY SCORE in a match guarantees a less than accurate/honest factor.

You can keep re-hashing the same thing over and over again. Everyone understands the handicap purposes and reasonings. What the issue is with some is that they don't like to have the attempt at a shot taken out of their hands. Regardless of "almost a certainty" or "likelyhood", unless you take the shot you just never know.

Like the instance given, your opponent concedes the hole after putting two tee shots OB. You lie in the fwy. Do you take a par or a birdie? What if it's a 295 yd par 4 and you're 20 yds off the green? You might make par, you might birdie, hell you might make eagle.......you never know. That is where some have an issue with the handicapping rules for match play. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we won't abide by the rules. Now that I am aware of the rules, I will apply them when I participate in match play (which will be much less for what it's worth).

As opposed to constantly pushing what is supposedly right and wrong, just take a step back and look at what someone is trying to say. Perhaps they are just stating an opinion that perhaps something might have a flaw and is wondering if anyone else agrees with them or believes there could be an alternative way of doing things.

And for what it's worth, although ESC is part of handicapping, if you want to determine the true skill level of a golfer just play the game it was made to be played and let every stroke count. If you score a 12 on a hole, so be it. No copping out with an ESC 6. I know handicaps allows players of different abilities to compete against each other, but perhaps players of same skill should play against players of their ability.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Some may agree with me, some may not but it's not worth the effort anymore to bring to light the other side of the coin.

[BC MIST]

Some may agree with me, some may not but it's not worth the effort anymore to bring to light the other side of the coin.

When I perceive a lack of understanding, "connecting the dots," as someone above wrote, I tend to be persistent in trying to help/make them "see the light," or understand why the rules exist as they are. I do understand your "you might make par, you might make birdie, you might make eagle" point, (hell, you might make bogey, too) but they are not equal, as is inferred.

The handicapping system that we use is excellent, but imperfect, and the match play scenario is one area that has a little grey in it, however, the logic in doing it this way, makes perfect sense and will have no negative affect on one's factor.

Perhaps like you, I abhor the use of handicaps, not because the system is flawed, it's not, but because there is such a high percentage of golfers who cheat, whether knowingly or not, making competitions where handicaps are used, a joke, and it takes only one sandbagger to ruin the competition for everyone.

I prefer that golfers tee it up, make the best score possible on that day and to the low scorer(s) goes the spoils, period. But, the reality that there is such a wide variance in scores makes it necessary to group golfers according to some predetermined criteria, and factors are what is almost always used. How else could it be done to ensure a fair competition?

In long distance running, we use age groups to determine winners as older guys don't have the physiological ability to run as fast as the young ones. In some curling competitions they use years of experience. Any other ideas?

[jvincent]

there is such a high percentage of golfers who cheat, whether knowingly or not

I would argue that cheating is intentionally breaking a rule that you are aware of.

Recording a wrong score because of not knowing a rule or misinterpreting a rule, while a mistake, is not cheating IMHO.

[Big Johnny69]

When I perceive a lack of understanding, "connecting the dots," as someone above wrote, I tend to be persistent in trying to help/make them "see the light," or understand why the rules exist as they are. I do understand your "you might make par, you might make birdie, you might make eagle" point, (hell, you might make bogey, too) but they are not equal, as is inferred.

The handicapping system that we use is excellent, but imperfect, and the match play scenario is one area that has a little grey in it, however, the logic in doing it this way, makes perfect sense and will have no negative affect on one's factor.

Perhaps like you, I abhor the use of handicaps, not because the system is flawed, it's not, but because there is such a high percentage of golfers who cheat, whether knowingly or not, making competitions where handicaps are used, a joke, and it takes only one sandbagger to ruin the competition for everyone.

I prefer that golfers tee it up, make the best score possible on that day and to the low scorer(s) goes the spoils, period. But, the reality that there is such a wide variance in scores makes it necessary to group golfers according to some predetermined criteria, and factors are what is almost always used. How else could it be done to ensure a fair competition?

In long distance running, we use age groups to determine winners as older guys don't have the physiological ability to run as fast as the young ones. In some curling competitions they use years of experience. Any other ideas?

And I have seen the light, as I stated I will now be more aware of how to score my match play rounds.

And I'm glad to see you agree there is flaws in the system. And that is all I was merely stating. After reading your posts and reading sections of the manual I understood why they do what they do for different types of rounds. But having the rights and wrongs re-stated time and time again when all I was doing was trying to point out a possible flaw in the system would get the best of people a little frustrated.


It is the system we use, and it is what it is. Not sure they'd ever be a perfect scenario. But I'm glad we have events like the Citizen and OVGA tournaments where there is a general grouping of similar skilled players, but on those given days they play straight up, no handicaps. And in most cases, the best of the best will rise to the top on those days.