Honest Handicaps ?

[Jimmy]

The Handicap system in my opinion is severly flawed. I read many posts in this forum, and I just shake my head in disbelief.

A Honest Handicap means the following !

1.) All rules are to be obeyed, and not munipulated.

2.) NEVER move your ball in the rough, and when summer rules are in effect, you don't move your ball on the fairway period !

3.) Enter All of your 18 hole scores, not selected ones.

4.) If you do not know how to count, ask your playing partner how many shots you took. He/she knows !

5.) Mulligans ????????? Never to be used ! That is why they have a practice range.

6.) If your ball is behind a tree, remember God placed it there to test your ability, and your Acceptance.



If you do not comply with the above mentioned, your handicap is DisHonest, and you are a disgrace to the Game.

My Honest Opinion, and if anyone feels the above mentioned is inaccurate, please tell me how I am, so as I may Learn from you!

Enjoy your honest game of golf ? Till the snow flies !

[Curious George]

I think you got it, but what you read in the forum may be the difference between people who follow all those rules and post an honest handicap, and people who don't follow those rules and post estimates. If you're referring to the thread before that asks for handicap, the higher ones are estimating...I know I don't have a formal handicap because I don't follow those rules.

[Colby]

I agree with Curious George, I can't belive I'm saying that , a lot of people have unofficial handicaps, given to them by free online handicap applications, or software like Gstat Pro, which I like a lot (shameless plug once again). There are groups that play golf, like the OttawaGolf Tour, that have established certain unofficial local rules which I believe, if followed during a round, makes that round ineligible for inputting into an official RCGA rules system. Gary, could you confirm that either way so I know?

In any event, anyone who rolls on the fairway or uses any other local rule including "winter rules" will artificially lower their handicap, which with the exception of bragging rights, won't help you in any event where handicaps, official or unofficial, are used.

[Curious George]

I'm renaming myself Hurt George....

[Kilroy]

The OttawaGolf Tour handicaps are NOT official RCGA handicaps. We do not belong to the RCGA. If we did we would follow the official rules to the letter. As it is we took a vote among last year's members to see what they wanted to do this season, and a set of local rules were developed. I am sure that Gary does not approve, but this tour is more recreational than competitive.

Many recreational tours do this at various levels. I remember the Worlds of Golf League took extreme liberties with the game to create a "friendlier, funner golf" but they went much too far in many areas of easing up the rules. I do not believe they still operate here, but may still be going in Florida.

Many players who belong to courses, and do carry "official" RCGA handicaps, play by a slightly relaxed set of rules except when in the club championship or perhaps intersectionals. They enter their scores anyway. They end up in B class instead of C class, and that can only hurt them in handicapped competitions against a player who is a "real" B player. Our man may even feel the real "B" player is a sandbagger because he is so much better.

I am also sure that a good number of very serious players are very diligent about keeping to the official rules of golf every time they tee it up. I applaud them for that.

There are 2 games; golf, and the other game that a LOT of people play and enjoy. Governing bodies in other sports allow for many levels of the game to be enjoyed. Teeball softball hardball Aluminum bats... ad nauseum.

I fell that rules for the highest level players should be strict. Limit the ball and keep the COR where it is for the pros, and let the weekend duffer hit whatever he wants. Let the manufacturers make a longer ball and club for those of us who need it. Nobody will be redesigning courses if suddenly the weekend hackers get 30 more yards.

I am going to need a flame proof suit now.

[Big_duck]

Why is everyone these days making themselves self appointed policemen?

Anyone who is artifically deflating there handicap is only hurting themselves. If the enter a tournament two things could happen:

1. No way they are going to get low net (or gross for that matter).

2. They won't know the real rules and either get penalized to death or disqualified.

Now sand baggers on the other hand ....:shakehead

[Kilroy]

If you do not comply with the above mentioned, your handicap is DisHonest, and you are a disgrace to the Game.

I think that's a bit strong. Don't worry, be happy

[Colby]

Originally posted by Curious George
I'm renaming myself to Hurt George....

Sorry Curious George, I didn't mean to hurt you, I just don't agree with some of the things that you have said in the past. That does't make your opinion worth less than mine or bad by any means, I just have a different opinion, that's all.

So keep on posting. Long live democracy, or close to democracy as the forum rules allow

[Curious George]

, I argue just for the sake of arguing half the time. It gets honest perspectives out more quickly. If I had a choice between being well-liked or honest, I'm afraid I'd choose honest.

[Kilroy]

Sometimes I think "being well liked" can be more important than being honest or playing by the book, as I learned yesterday.

I was in a game where the bet was $5 on a stroke play round. On one hole my opponent was unfortunate enough to hit a wrong ball (probably one sent over from the other fairway) and then discover his own ball a few yards further forward.

OK, so he earned himself a 2 stroke penalty. The problem is, I offended him greatly when I asked him if his reported score included the 2 strokes.

His response was "This is a friendly game and he would never consider charging an opponent a penalty for something like that."

I replied "According to the rules, you do not 'charge an opponent' with a penalty. It is not optional. It just is. " But I digress, that is not really what I wanted to get to...

The point here is not who's right or who's wrong, but is respecting the full application of the official rules worth being confrontational with your friends?

Is not applying all rules a "disgrace to the game" ie: If a newbie player hits 6 balls OB, should he keep reloading until he finds the fairway (or runs out of balls), or at some point just drop one up further and play on?

Bottom line, I feel I made a mistake in the situation yesterday. Knowing the rules is one thing, calling someone out when playing for chump change is not nessesary or worth it. I'd rather have friends.

In my post earlier in this thread I made the statement that there should be more than one set of rules for this game, a relaxed set for weekend warriors and a rigid set for the pros. This incident only underlines that for me.

[Chieflongtee]

Dan. What if it were your brother in law? How would you react then? Especially if he came to the family gathering afterwards bragging about his score and beating you by 2 strokes...?

[alice]

That is exactly the problem with some weekend golfers, they want to play for a couple of bucks like everyone else but think that all the rules do not apply. If there was no money on the line then I would say so what, it is only the player that is losing here by not folloowing the rules. I hope he paid up his $ 5.

[Kilroy]

Andre; Dunno.

alice; No I was 9 strokes back -5 for hcp difference = -4
I did not count the penalty, but would have lost by 2 anyway. I paid him.

Another old friend of mine made an infraction back in June. He claimed a tie on the hole (match play) I pointed out the infraction (loss of hole). I got a similar response from him.

Funny thing is, most people here in the forum feel as Jimmy does (full rules or stay home), but out on the course, most seem to be like these two fellas who are out to have fun, not beat themselves up.

If I try to play by the book, nobody will want to play with me. The implication is that knowing and pointing out the rules is considered unfriendly in a "friendly" game.

[Jimmy]

This Post was injected in the forum for only 1 reason only. To inform you of the integrity of the true handicap. I am not talking to new golfers or golfers who do not care about handicaps. I am talking to the golfers who want to tell their competitiors what their handicap is. I am talking to the golfer, who understands the game, the rules and etiquette ! I personally would like to hear someone's true handicap based on the rules of golf vs. ( other methods ).

Golf can be played with your " Bud's ", or " Tournaments ", not too sure if there is another way ? Hold on playing solo is another option, however when I have played solo, I seem to take additional shots or putts during the game, so this score can not be used for anything. The point I am trying to make is why play (2) styles for handicapping ? I know the saying " If it feels good do it ", but in my golf play when I play by the rules and I record my score for the handicap, I know that I have been "True " to myself.

Please don't take this post out of text, their is only one handicap, and honest one ! New golfers need to be shown the true integrity of the game, many new golfers that are hitting the courses today need to be shown, how to play the game properly, and this is not being done, my opinion.

Stay tuned for my post next week, the topic will be " Etiquette ", or should I say lack of it.

Jimmy

[el tigre]

Dan:

It sounds to me like a misunderstanding more than an issue of should the rules be applied or not. You were playing by the strict rules of golf, and your friend was playing by the "weekend" rules that he normally uses.

Golf is in essence a solo sport - you against the course. So frankly, I don't really care what rules other golfers are playing by if there is no competition involved. It just means a lower handicap then they should have when a competition is involved.

Different story whenever someone asks me if we want to play for a few bucks, however. I make a point of saying "Sure, but we have to use the strict rules of golf". Then if a question comes up later, you just need to say "we agreed, strict rules of golf". They may still be unhappy, but they can't say they didn't know, or they didn't mean THAT rule, etc.

Of course, the other option is always to say "No thanks, I just play for fun" to all but your best golfing buddies...

[Jimmy]

I am very surprised at the lack of responses to this Important Issue on Handicaps ???

If you play baseball, and the ball goes foul by 3 inches it is like we can justify the ball being fair, and we get a double, or a triple ??

In tennis if it hits the net on the serve we can say it is not a "let" serve it is ok.

In football we align ourselves offside, it is ok ??

How many examples do you want ???

Even in Backgammon and Monopoly there are rules !

How can we Justify playing by whatever rules fit the day or attitude we take to the course.

I thought this Handicap issue would generate many responses, and I appreciate those who have responded, and what can I assume from the rest of this message board membership ?? That golf is what I want.

The feelings generated by playing by the rules vs. the feelings you get from cheating, or should I say munipulating the game of golf are so different. Honesty makes you feel proud, to shoot a 77 and ignored 4 or 5 rules, and throw in a 4 foot gimmie, and a mulligan or 2 makes you feel good ???????

I will wait a week or 2 before I post my thoughts on " Etiquette ",
We still have a ways to go on this one !

Regards

[jeffc]

handicaps and following the rules has been beat to death on this forum. Do a seach and you'll see lots of previous posts.

[Colby]

Jimmy,

This is starting to sound like those cheesy satellite signal stealing ads. Yes it's wrong. And as Jeffc has said, it's been beaten to death. And here's some more beating!

Everyone that I have talked to and have read on this forum are in agreement with you. The rules of golf are there and should be followed to the letter. Now, there are some that feel there should be two sets of rules, one for pros and one for amateurs. This belief does not necessarily mean that they are breaking the rules when they play. And when they play official rounds, and by official I mean rounds that count for official handicaps, not unofficial like the OttawaGolf Tour, or in sanctioned tournaments or other tournaments when something important is on the line.

If it is unofficial, that is, not used for official handicapping or a sanctioned tournament, and the committee has determined some local rules, i.e. the ones for the OttawaGolf Tour, that everyone there is playing, how can that be called dishonest. The golfers are playing by the local rules determined by the committee and the round is not being used for any "official" purpose, nor should be.

Even your mention of "summer rules" in your first post implies that you play some "winter rules". In Appendix I, it states:

b. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. Such Local Rule shall be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

It says that "Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course..." This could happen at any time, including the heat of the summer where the course is so dry and hard, it's like concrete. This is where, as some might call it, stick-handling in the fairway is allowed. Not all of the golf courses in the Ottawa area are in the best of shape. Spotty growth in the fairways, a clay base, etc, etc, all lead to poor conditions. But this point in particular has been hammered home lots.

Further on, it does say however:

b. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”

The USGA does not endorse “preferred lies” and “winter rules” and recommends that the Rules of Golf be observed uniformly. Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions which might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.

However, adverse conditions are sometimes so general throughout a course that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course. Heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

When a Committee adopts a Local Rule for “preferred lies” or “winter rules” it should be set out in detail and should be interpreted by the Committee, as there is no established code for “winter rules.” Without a detailed Local Rule, it is meaningless for a Committee to post a notice merely saying “Winter Rules Today.”

The following Local Rule would seem appropriate for the conditions in question, but the USGA will not interpret it:

“A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green may, without penalty, be moved or may be lifted, cleaned and placed within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of where it originally lay, but not nearer the hole and not in a hazard or on a putting green. A player may move or place his ball once and after the ball has been so moved or placed, it is in play.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.”


Before a Committee adopts a Local Rule permitting “preferred lies” or “winter rules,” the following facts should be considered:

1. Such a Local Rule conflicts with the Rules of Golf and the fundamental principle of playing the ball as it lies.

2. “Winter rules” are sometimes adopted under the guise of protecting the course when, in fact, the practical effect is just the opposite - they permit moving the ball to the best turf, from which divots are then taken to injure the course further.

3. “Preferred lies” or “winter rules” tend generally to lower scores and handicaps, thus penalizing the players in competition with players whose scores for handicaps are made under the Rules of Golf.

4. Extended use or indiscriminate use of “preferred lies” or “winter rules” will place players at a disadvantage when competing at a course where the ball must be played as it lies..

So while the implementation of local rules is not looked upon with favour by the USGA, it is allowed.

And what about courses using local rules to suit their needs. If you have ever played Le Geant at Tremblant, they have a few local rules:
[list=1][*]Out-of-bounds and lost balls - loss of one stroke and play from point of entry[*]Rock and Drainage ditches - Free Drop[*]Maximum 3 minutes searching for lost balls[/list=1]

I would never advocate not playing by the rules when it is appropriate to do so. Even Monopoly allows for "house rules", Backgammon's rule set is pretty simple, the same for chess. As for football, baseball, hockey, lacrosse and any other sport with active referees and umpires, the players will take anything they can get to have the edge, that is until they are caught and a penalty is imposed. If you don't think there are missed calls, you are mistaken. You don't see a hockey player call a penalty on himself when it is missed. Golf is a unique sport. It has a documented set of rules, one that as a golfer we should follow, and we can really only police ourselves.

My $0.02

[Jimmy]

I tried to get feedback in September 2002 when I joined this Forum, and no one really followed up on my subject then. I really wonder why ?? Let's see maybe Handicaps really dont mean anything anymore, so why have them at all ????

All of us say our Handicap is this or that, but in reality when I play a match with someone, what is there handicap if it is not Honest !

This subject has not been beaten to death..it has been ignored, and again I ask why ?

I would tell you why, but you would shrug it off anyways, because you like your Mulligans, moving it in the fairway, push it away from behind a tree, have another ball in your pocket in case you dont find the original, what rules..we suppose to follow rules ?? And you think I want to play with Golfers who dont play by the rules ?? NOT !!

[Colby]

Jimmy,

I'm not sure the issue is "honest" handicap, but whether or not the handicap is "official". The majority of golfers that I know don't have official handicaps. They know what they shoot around, or they have unofficial handicaps from software that they have purchased, or through online handicapping like golfmax.ca. Neither of these methods can be used in any competition that requires an official USGA or RCGA handicap, or equivilant if it's a different country.

If someone tells you they are a 20 handicap, and they don't belong to a golf club, it's a good chance that that handicap is unofficial. In other words, they shoot around 92, give or take. If you are playing a serious competition, for money (is that allowed?!? ), bragging rights, or whatever, get the rules of the competition straight right from the beginning. If you all agree to play the rules to the letter, the person who is not used to "playing it as it lies" will be at a disadvantage, which is to your advantage. If everyone agrees on preferred lies for whatever reason, including "winter rules" than you as the player used to "playing it as it lies" will be at the advantage. So if you always play by the rules, and in competition, play by the same rules as everyone else, you will at least be equal, if not have the advantage over the others.

I for one, don't play mulligans, play my crappy lies behind trees and play it as it lies when I am recording a round for handicap purposes. However, when I am playing on the OttawaGolf Tour, and in general fun rounds when I am practicing or plaing with friends, I will stick-handle and take a preferred lie in the fairway. All of the others are doing it because of local rules in an unofficial, unsanctioned competition, and to do so will keep me on a level playing field with the others.

If you want to limit yourself to playing with those that only play by the rules, that is your choice, but you could be missing out on an opportunity to play with some very nice people.

Also, and Gary can tell me if this is right or wrong, local rules, including "preferred lies" or "winter rules" can only be set out by the Committee at the golf course, not the golfers themselves.

[Kilroy]

I dunno Jimmy, It looks to me that we have had some good feedback on this issue in this thread. I have seen this topic discussed at length in this forum. Since the "search word" used could be anything, results from these searches will vary.

Speaking from my own experience, When I started playing golf, i did not count whiffs, and allowed myself one "mully" per nine. I am sure most players start that way and tighten their application of rules as they improve, and learn the rules. Not everyone wants (or has use for) an "official" handicap, they just want to chart their progress. As they apply more rules, that will affect their tracking index, but that would be expected.

My younger brother still takes a mully per nine. So by your hard-line approach I should not play golf with my brother, but I should play by myself when visiting him, because he takes mullies. Sorry, but golf is a game. Friends and family are pretty important.

Agree in advance, and have fun out there.

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
When I started playing golf, i did not count whiffs, and allowed myself one "mully" per nine.

Could you explain the logic of allowing yourself "one mully per nine"?

Are you implying that when you started you thought "mulligans" were legal?

Now that you are no longer "a starting golfer", do you now play by the Rules?

[Kilroy]

Hehehe, actually when I first got a rulebook, I was suprised that I could not find the word "Mulligan" anywhere. Yes at the time I thought that they were allowed, and I wanted to know what the limit was. I assumed rules for pros and casual players were not identical.

Just knowing the rules is a big factor. I have learned a lot since starting OttawaGolf and doing the rules contest and reading your posts Gary.

Logic was, everyone else I played took mullies, so I did it too. At that time I was only playing with real hackers. When I started playing with people who never took mulligans, I played by the rules they applied.

Now I apply the local rules of our tour to all rounds I play. As I said, this is causing me some grief with some playing partners that feel I am becoming anal, since I let less go than I used to. Others feel that even having the local rules at all is a travesty, but you cannot please everyone, and I am going with the majority consensus from the tour members.

Here are the local rules we play with...

Preferred Lies
Allowed in your own fairway only. Repositioning the ball is permitted only within 6 inches. "Stick handling" only - no hands

Unmarked Hazards
Unmarked tree lines and fescue are deemed to be lateral hazards (red staked). A ball in such an area may be played as it lies or (if unplayable or lost) dropped within 2 club lengths of point of entry with penalty of 1 stroke.

Abnormal Ground Conditions
Unmarked areas of spotty growth or "hard pan" that interfere with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing are ground under repair - Free drop

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Logic was, everyone else I played took mullies, so I did it too.

So if you go into a 7-11 and everbody in the store is stealing chocolate bars.....

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Unmarked Hazards
Unmarked tree lines and fescue are deemed to be lateral hazards (red staked). A ball in such an area may be played as it lies or (if unplayable or lost) dropped within 2 club lengths of point of entry with penalty of 1 stroke.

Rule 33-8b. A Rule of Golf shall not be waived by a Local Rule.

Those may be the conditions under which you play OttawaGolf Tour events, but by no stretch of the imagination could they be considered "Local Rules".

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Now I apply the local rules of our tour to all rounds I play

Surely you are not suggesting that you believe it is within the Rules to take a drop for a ball which has been lost in long grass.

If you play all your rounds according to OttawaGolf Tour guidelines, you haven't progressed very far from not counting whiffs and taking Mulligans.

[Kilroy]

So if you go into a 7-11 and everbody in the store is stealing chocolate bars.....

Hmm, taking a mulligan; comitting a theft. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

I am taking Colby's word for this since it is late and I cannot verify it at this time...

And what about courses using local rules to suit their needs. If you have ever played Le Geant at Tremblant, they have a few local rules:
Out-of-bounds and lost balls - loss of one stroke and play from point of entry
Rock and Drainage ditches - Free Drop
Maximum 3 minutes searching for lost balls

Are you saying that rounds played at courses with this sort of local rule are not valid rounds for official handicapping with the RCGA?

At least OB is still plays as OB on our tour.

Our local rules have all been employed by various clubs.
Colby's is an excellent example of Local Rules that go even further than the ones we use, yet I'm sure the course is an RCGA member.
Is it acceptable for them to have such local rules and not our tour? If not how can they do this and remain members? If they can, then how would following their lead go in the "kids stealing candy" category?

If you play all your rounds according to OttawaGolf Tour guidelines, you haven't progressed very far from not counting whiffs and taking Mulligans.

Ouch.:jitter

[Colby]

Dan,

Here is a scan from the back of the scorecard...

[Farzin]

I think some guys missed the message that Dan was sending. He values his friendship more than a game of golf and a lot more than 5 lousy buck. Folks what he is saying and I agree 110% is that you can keep your handicap while Playing a round with your buddy and not missing the fun of the game over a miss hit ball that actually it's an honest mistake. those pros have to and must comply with every rule of the game, because every ball they hit is recorded by few cameras from few angels. Damn right they don't miss hit another ball from the fringes off the fairway. Before they get to their ball, it's already known to them where their ball is. they play for a living and a big one too. I am not in agreement with those of you who think the rules of golf are religious and if broken it's taboo. Being honest with yourself and your partners is different than bending some rules to make the game more fun and more friendly and also play for a few buck here and there too. Now for those of you who disagree or challeng or doubt my handicap because of my opinion, lets play a round and fix it on the golf course. your rule or any rule.

[Andy4Par]

I like to compare recreational golf to a game of pond hockey... limited rules of play. No need to have refs or linesman, no blue line etc. I don't see the problem of bending a rule as dumb as hitting OB walking back 200+ yards to rehit from a tee. That said, I also don't like abusing rules when there is money to be gained. I'm not talking about a friendly wager between to good pals who agree on their own set of rules before they play. I play golf with my father maybe twice a month. He rarely breaks 100, most times he scores 110+. He's pushing 60 years old and I'm going to tell him, excuse me but that is a two stroke penalty for asking me what club I used. Give me a break! Life is tough enough, I play golf to escape the realities of working for a living.

Its really to bad that the better a player gets the more times he hears, Your official handicap would be much higher if you played by the rules of golf.

I watched Gary Players playing lessons from a Pro last night on The Golf Channel...his message was for the average golfer to have fun. His biggest peev, club members not repairing divots and pitch marks.

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Hmm, taking a mulligan; comitting a theft. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

It is a not a comparison. It is an analogy.
Your logic seems to be: I cheat because everbody else is cheating.
If Tiger Woods won a million dollar tournament because he knowingly returned a lower score than actually taken (mulligan), would that be a more reasonable comparison to theft?

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Are you saying that rounds played at courses with this sort of local rule are not valid rounds for official handicapping with the RCGA?

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the Rules of Golf, their score for that hole for handicap purposes shall be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on the hole. When recording this hole score, precede this score the score with an "X".
Note. A score shall not posted if the majority of holes are not played under the principles of the Rules of Golf.

I will be contacting the RCGA to inquire as to the status of le Géant and the acceptability of their posting Local Rules which are not consistent with the Rules of Golf.

Originally posted by Hanifi
those pros have to and must comply with every rule of the game, because every ball they hit is recorded by few cameras from few angels.

Your logic for cheating is that there are no cameras following your round?

Originally posted by Hanifi
Now for those of you who disagree or challeng or doubt my handicap because of my opinion, lets play a round and fix it on the golf course.

My handicap factor is 36.4. Where do you want play and for how much?

Originally posted by Andy4Par
He's pushing 60 years old and I'm going to tell him, excuse me but that is a two stroke penalty for asking me what club I used.

Where in the Rules does it give a player the power to call penalties on a fellow-competitor?

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
I should play by myself when visiting him, because he takes mullies

Why wouldn't you be able to play with your brother just because he takes mulligans?
Your brother can do whatever his conscience dictates, but why would that prevent you from playing by the Rules?

Originally posted by Gary Hill
Surely you are not suggesting that you believe it is within the Rules to take a drop for a ball which has been lost in long grass.

Sorry to keep harping on this point, but I am trying to determine whether you believe that a Local Rule overrides the Rules of Golf.

[Jimmy]

Thanks Gary for your feedback ! Sometimes when you deal with these " Sensitive Issues " golfers get their hair up on their back. The " integrity " of the game is what is at stake here.

It is not fair for a low handicapper like myself to play against guys who do not have an honest handicap, or do not submit all their scores. One reason being a higher handicapper who does not have a good lie, whether it be on the fairway or in the rough, and improve that lie through local rules or cheating ( the no-one looking syndrome ) has a distinct advantage with this improvement of ball position. The lower handicapper can play these lies much better than the higher handicapper, so when a guy improves his ball position, the chance for a better shot is there for the taking. Same for the rules of golf, one guy plays by the rules and the other doesn't. Makes for some good golf, Not !

If you want to be a golfer then play by the rules of golf, it is a very simple ! And if you think for a moment that I would like to play with a golfer that cheats vs. someone who does follow the rules, which one do you think I would rather play with ???????

Following the rules and etiquette of golf will improve your game much better than any technology. And you can be proud of the score that you posted because it was " HONEST "

The choice is ultimately Yours ! And if you like the way you and your buds are playing...carry on ! Don't expect me to play with you!

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