Is it in the Hazard or Lost Ball?

[hackzaw]

I think I know the answer to this but I'll put it out there.

11th hole at King's Forest. Hitting from an elevated tee deck down into "the valley". Creek, marked yellow stakes, runs across the fairway (actually, just before the fairway even starts), and is out of sight from the tee deck. Trees both left and right. Golfer slices hard right, and the ball drops out of sight. Ball is never found.

My playing partner was adament that he could drop and play a ball at the point where the ball crossed the hazard, assuming because the ball was never found, it must be in the hazard.

I'm pretty sure I read elsewhere on here that you cannot assume the ball finished in the hazard if you didn't see it land in the hazard. Therefore, it is treated as a lost ball unless it's otherwise found. If it's found in the hazard, then it's played as a regular hazard shot. But the correct ruling should have been a lost ball, and to play a provisional off the tee. Correct?

[Colby]

There needs to be evidence that it is in the hazard, the group saw it enter, or you recover it from the hazard. Also, he can't hit a provisional if it is in the hazard because that automatically will become the ball in play if the other ball is in the hazard.

[GarthM]

Actually since they did not see it go in the hazard, he may hit a provisional as the ball may be lost outside the hazard.

[Colby]

I always thought if it might be in the hazard, don't hit a provisional.

[Kilroy]

Garth has it right.

If you didn't see it go in the hazzard, it may be lost outside the hazzard. In fact it would be considered lost outside the hazzard at that point. If it was then found in the hazzard, the provisional is out of play, and you play the hazzard rule from there.

[hackzaw]

I wondered about the "hitting a provisional when in a hazard". I've seen the same guy I play with hit a ball on a different hole that clearly went into a hazard, and he simply hit his next shot at point of entry prior to looking for his original ball. He did it purely to keep our foursome moving and to save time. It would have certainly added time if he had to look first (on the opposite side of the creek), only to return back to the far side to hit at point of entry if he didn't find his original.

[Kilroy]

clearly went into a hazard, and he simply hit his next shot at point of entry

Correct. If it was seen going into the hazzard there is no requirement to find it. It's when you don't see it go in that you must find it in the hazzard to play under the hazzard rule rather than a lost ball.

[hackzaw]

Right, if it was seen clearly going into the hazard, this fellow would, first, drop a ball at point of entry and hit it into the green. Then he'd go look for his ball in the hazard. If he found it, he would hit it out claiming the first was a provisional. I'd think as soon as you play a second ball after one went into the hazard, the first ball is considered dead, even if you found it. Otherwise you'd could hit the first ball, and see how well it finishes. If you didn't like it, just go find your hazard ball, and determine if you think you could possibly get that ball any closer.

[nhwott5]

there is no provisional for a ball in a hazzard. so you are correct, if he knew it was in the hazzard, then his drop is in play and the ball in hazzard is dead.

[Golfbum]

Same scenerio happened to Phil on Friday on the 9th hole. Drove it left, into the hazard. Played a provisional. Found his ball in the hazard and played it out. Hit it back in, dropped, made triple. Went on to win the tournament!
Unless you clearly see it go in the hazard it is deemed a lost ball.
Phil might have been better off if the marshall had not found his ball.

[hackzaw]

Just to get this straight.... you can hit a provision if your ball might be lost outside of the hazard. What if you do find your ball in the hazard, I presume your provision is no longer an option, even if it is the best choice. Sometimes finding your ball in the hazard that is not playable, and where the drop may take you, the provision may be the better option. Is the provision still usable in this case? I suppose a ball hit in the hazard can be re-tee'd, right? Does the provision become the "re-tee'd" ball?

[jvincent]

Sometimes finding your ball in the hazard that is not playable, and where the drop may take you, the provision may be the better option. Is the provision still usable in this case? I suppose a ball hit in the hazard can be re-tee'd, right? Does the provision become the "re-tee'd" ball?

If you find your ball and then declare it unplayable or want to proceed under the rules for a hazard (and are choosing to play another ball from where the original was played as your option) you CANNOT use the provisional. You MUST hit another ball from the tee.

[LobWedge]

Just to get this straight.... you can hit a provision if your ball might be lost outside of the hazard. What if you do find your ball in the hazard, I presume your provision is no longer an option, even if it is the best choice. Sometimes finding your ball in the hazard that is not playable, and where the drop may take you, the provision may be the better option. Is the provision still usable in this case? I suppose a ball hit in the hazard can be re-tee'd, right? Does the provision become the "re-tee'd" ball?

A ball cannot be declared unplayable if it is inside the boundary of a water hazard (Rule 28). If this is the case, you must proceed under Rule 26. You may not declare a provisional if there's reasonable evidence that your ball may be in a hazard.

If your ball is lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, you must proceed under Rule 27. In this case you may declare a provisional before you go forward to search for your first ball.

If you find your ball (outside a water hazard) and declare it unplayable, you must proceed under Rule 28.

p.s. Regarding Rule 28, IMO for pace of play, if a player invokes Rule 28, and can't proceed under Option B or C, and he's already played a provisional, Option A should allow him to declare the provisional "in play" instead of going all the way back to where he last played from. We use this Local Rule on the NCGT, and it definitely saves time.

[Kilroy]

The problem with that is it gives the player choice of 2 balls, wihich would influence the decision to try and hack it out of the trouble he's in or return to the tee for an unknown result.

[LobWedge]

Yeah, but its still stroke & distance though. That's the ultimate "penalty" IMO.

Nobody wants to go back anyway because all it really serves to do is annoy the group behind you. That's the main reason why option A of that rule is so seldomly used, and why that rule gets broken so often.

[Kilroy]

Agreed.

However, if the provisional ball must be abandoned, and you can't or won't go back to the tee, then you should just pick up (or play in for fun).

If you returned to the tee...

• For your handicap you are unlikely to score better than your ESC max anyway.
• Stableford (NCGT) you are likely to get 0 points.
• Match play, you are not likely to win the hole

So take the X and move on, rather than mess with the rule and invite advantage by choice of ball. The only place where that does not work is stroke play, but if you are going to play improperly (by playing the provisional after finding the original) the your stroke play score is invalid anyway, so better to just sacrifice the hole, card an X and save yourself the walk back.

[Kilroy]

Of course you could just not look for the ball and play the provisional if you wish.

Make sure you do so quickly

[AAA]

You may not declare a provisional if there's reasonable evidence that your ball may be in a hazard.

You may play a provisional if your ball may be lost outside a water hazard.
Which is not quite the same thing.