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  1. #1
    3 Wood hackzaw is on a distinguished road
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    Ball "probably" played by Group Ahead

    I was playing a par 3....hit it left where it drops off out of sight from the tee deck, which happens to be the fairway/rough of the next hole coming back with trees scattered amongst. As I approach the area, I see a guy in the group ahead putting a club back, so it "appeared" he had just played a shot from roughly speaking where my ball was likely to have ended up.

    Sure enough, I never did find my Pro V, BUT I did find a piece of crap Top Flight also near the same spot. I'm convinced he played my ball. I just played one from where I thought it was, and made a miraculous up and down.

    I was playing my casual twosome best ball skins game. We've always played it that if you lose your ball, you're out of the hole. My playing competitor, also parred the hole, but took the skin as a result of me not being able to locate my ball.

    What's the correct ruling?

  2. #2
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Unless there is "reasonable evidence" that the other player took your ball it is considered lost.
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  3. #3
    3 Wood hackzaw is on a distinguished road
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    What constitutes reasonable evidence? In this case, seeing a different ball there, and seeing the guy in the group ahead having just played a shot from a similar location would seem reasonable enough for me. If this is not "reasonable evidence", what would it take to make it reasonable evidence? Do you have to run up to the group, and ask them to present their balls for inspection?

    Let's presume for a moment that there was reasonable evidence to presume the ball was played by the other group, what happens next?

  4. #4
    Way Beyond Help rezadue is on a distinguished road rezadue's Avatar
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    Something like this happened to my wife last week also. She was playing the East 9 at Canadian when she sliced her tee shot for #3 on to the right mounds. She knew exactly where her ball landed.

    In the course of walking up to her ball some dude walked over from the first fairway to the exact spot where her ball was, yelled to his buddies that he had found his ball and proceeded to hit it.

    Upon her arrival to the spot, her ball was nowhere to be found. When she asked the guy about it, he just shrugged and said he played his ball, all the while not even making eye contact. Then he proceeded to take off without one more word.

    If it had been me, I would have followed him to where he hit his ball, if for nothing else; for being rude. But she just played on.

    I told her not to count a penalty shot as she was certain he played her ball. Would this be incorrect too?

  5. #5
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Without seeing the area, is it possible that the ball was under some bushes or hidden in the grass somewhere? If the answer is yes, then there isn't "reasonable evidence". Ultimately though it's up to you and your playing partners to make that decision so if you agree that the other player took it, then you get to proceed under the rule which applies here; Ball moved by outside agency, Rule 18-1. There is a specific decision covering a stolen ball too.

    This is one of those areas of the rules which gets most recreational golfers annoyed. You're out for a good time and having to confront somebody about whether they took your ball shouldn't be necessary.
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  6. #6
    3 Wood hackzaw is on a distinguished road
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    Is it possible the ball came to rest under a tree.... yes, most certainly, but since we looked under every tree, and canvassed the area, it would be highly improbable that we wouldn't have found it. Balls hit routinely in this area can be fussy to find sometimes because there's a dozen scattered pine trees to search around and under, but balls are (almost) never lost here. Could the ball have been sitting down in the rough... I suppose - it's no putting surface. It's just 2 inch rough - not even fescue.

    In this instance, let's say we hadn't found another ball, nor saw the group in front leaving the area, then I wouldn't say I've got substancial evidence to prove anything happened to my ball, and we simply can't find it. Even my opponent said it was likely that they took my ball.

    What if I overheard the guy who may have hit my ball say "Boy thos Pro V's really do go good"?

    In the rules section covering a stolen ball (well, really the ball wasn't stolen in the example they cited because the young child threw the ball back, and allowed the player to identify his original ball), I wish they hadn't included the part about the boy throwing the ball back. The situation could have been very, very similar in that the group couldn't say with 100% confidence the players ball was stolen.

    jvincent - I tried to find the bit about having to ask the group if they took your ball. I didn't see that in the rules.

  7. #7
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    What if I overheard the guy who may have hit my ball say "Boy thos Pro V's really do go good"?
    I would certainly accept it as reasonable evidence.

    My reference to asking the other group was meant to show that in some cases the only foolproof way to know that they took your ball is to confront them and ask. Otherwise you are stuck in the "reasonable evidence" quagmire.

    Here's another good example. Let's say you hit your drive onto an adjacent fairway and see it land and come to rest from the tee box. By the time you get to where your ball should have been it's gone, but there's a foursome just approaching the green of the hole that your ball was on. In getting from the tee box to your ball it was "out of sight" for some time and you didn't actually see them pick it up. Now what do you?
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  8. #8
    3 Wood hackzaw is on a distinguished road
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    I guess the first thing I'd do is work on that slice

    You're right.... it's exactly the same, only even more frustrating because you saw it come to rest 200+ yards away, and it's gone when you get there. In that case, you can't help think they just picked up your ball. If another ball were in the same vicinity, I'd accept that someone made a mistake by playing the wrong ball without checking it.

    In both the case you presented and in my case, the evidence of another ball in the same area in conjunction with seeing that group there as well is good enough for me that someone simply played the wrong ball. What's your opinion?

    PS Wishon rules!!

  9. #9
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Resonable evidence? I don't think this meets the requirements.

    In the case of a ball going into a water hazard, you cannot assume it went in unless you see it go in. "It must have gone in" is not good enough just because there is a water hazzard in the area where you hit your ball that is out of sight form the place from which the shot is played.

    So in your case the place where you hit to is not in sight. There is some question as to what happened to it, but you did not see Mr X hit your ball, you did not identify your ball as the one he hit (you'd have to go look at it), nor did you find your ball.
    It's lost.

    Since the decision included confirmation that the ball was his, the inclusion of the ball being returned is critical in that case.
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  10. #10
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Also the ball you found could have been there for days. There is no evidence that it belonged to Mr X.
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  11. #11
    Par Kiwi battler is on a distinguished road
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    Dan is on the right track , except you dont nesesserily have to retrieve your ball

    You must positively determine the other player played your ball , then get him to show where he played from

    If he has just hit it , and its 200mtrs away or maybe lost etc , you can substitute another ball

  12. #12
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank View Post
    Since the decision included confirmation that the ball was his, the inclusion of the ball being returned is critical in that case.
    OK, but what about the scenario where I miss the green on a par 3 (not unusual for me) and a fox comes and grabs a ball and runs away.

    I don't know that the fox took my ball since I was unable to identify it. Yet under Rule 18 I am allowed to replace the ball.
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  13. #13
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    If you saw where it landed and saw the fox pick it up, no problem.

    In this case the ball landed out of sight.
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  14. #14
    Pitching Wedge slpca is on a distinguished road slpca's Avatar
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    Similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago. Was playing La Bete (Grey Rocks) when I hit into a fairway bunker from the tee. We both saw the ball land there. In order to get to the fairway we had to drive around a blind spot -couldn't see the bunker for a minute) . When we got to the bunker, there were foot prints in and out but no ball. It will forever remain a mystery.
    Sue

  15. #15
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    CSI level evidence would certainly be reasonable! Get the plaster, we need to do a cast of these footprints!

    Not only did the bozo possibly hit your ball, but neglected to rake too!
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  16. #16
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackzaw View Post
    Let's presume for a moment that there was reasonable evidence to presume the ball was played by the other group, what happens next?
    18-1 By Outside Agency

    If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

    20-3 c. Spot Not Determinable

    If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:
    (i) through the green, the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;

  17. #17
    Pitching Wedge slpca is on a distinguished road slpca's Avatar
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    Dan, the "bozo"didn't even hit it - no club marks. I think it might have been a kid who knew the area. Guess he is starting his own range

  18. #18
    3 Wood hackzaw is on a distinguished road
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    I suppose in terms of the rules, it all boils down to what exactly do they mean by "reasonable evidence". The rules don't say you must have "concrete" evidence, or "indisputable" evidence. What you guys are suggesting by saying you must determine without doubt that Mr X played my ball, in my opinion, falls under the "indisputable evidence". For sure, if he's got my ball with my identifying marks, he absolutely played it, even though I never actually saw him play it.

    What would you say if you approach Mr X, ask to see the ball, he shows it to you and you identify it as your ball. You tell him he must have played your ball, and he denies it, claiming it's his own ball. What now? You never actually saw him play or take your ball. Reasonable evidence? Indisputable evidence?

    Look up "reasonable" in the thesaurus, and you see words such as "sensible", "rational", "logical", "practical". The word "reasonable" is there for a reason....to allow for discretion, or am I still missing the point?

  19. #19
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    'Reasonable evidence' is taken by a large number of Referees and Rules Officials, but not all, to mean 95% probability.

  20. #20
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    That still boils down to a judgment call though.
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  21. #21
    3 Wood nhwott5 is on a distinguished road
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    even then though you have to figure your probablity your self.

    it is really a judgement call on any of these areas where there is no "black and white" answer.

    how do you come to decide it si 95% versus 90%? it is up to you ad your FC in the group. or the official if at a larger event.

    it is very much like a jury , they have believe "beyond a reasonable doubyt" but there is not strict definition of what a reasonable doubt is.

    good judegemtn is what is needed

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