Clearing line on the green

[Gary Hill]

jeffc -

The Committee may or may not be doing their job properly. I agree, it is a question of fact.

However, that is not a matter for you and I to decide on the golf course during a round of golf.

Just because you suspect that the Committee might not be doing its job properly does not give you license to move your ball around your to your heart's content.

The point that I am trying to make in this thread is that GUR is NOT what the average golfer thinks it is.

Not all blemishes on the course are supposed to be marked as GUR.
Not all bare spots on the course are supposed to be marked as GUR.

This is some fantasy that golfers have acquired from watching too many "Masters" telecasts.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Gary Hill
ShaneOttawa -

You are confusing "properly implementing this Rule" with YOUR INTERPRETATION of properly implementing this Rule.

Ground Under Repair is a means by which the Committee MAY mark an area of the course as temporarily unfit for the proper play of the game.

Your analogy is not applicable. Nowhere do the Rules mandate that a golf course must be immaculate in condition and free from blemishes, bare spots, spike marks, divots, etc.

Trees, bunkers, water, rough, wind, bushes, bare spots, divot holes, etc. are all part of integral parts of getting your ball from the teeing ground into the hole.

Of course, special considerations are made for unnatural intervention in this process of playing the game by such things as paved carts paths (immovable obstructions) and construction of watering systems (ground under repair).

Somehow, you have taken this "ground under repair" consideration to mean "anything that prevents me from having what I consider to be a perfect lie."

Just because the Committee has not marked every area on the course that you consider to be a blemish as "ground under repair" does not mean that the Committee is remiss in their duties.

What it means is that the Committee DOES NOT consider it to be ground under repair.

The Rules already provide a procedure (Rule 3-3) by which a doubtful area on the course may addressed during the play of a hole. If the Committee has, in fact, missed a spot which THEY consider to be ground under repair, your score will be adjusted accordingly.

Gary, you continue to read things into my posts that aren't there, ignore the reality that "the committee" is all-too-often mythical, and assign behaviour to me that you have no rationale for.

If I'm looking for factual answers on golf rules questions, I'll perhaps refer to your posts. If I'm looking for an honest debate on the rules and their application in the real world, I'll look elsewhere.

[jeffc]

it is not up to the individual to determine which rules they choose to follow. I'm not defending those statements nor am I saying I determine my own GUR.

Your statements seem to indicate that the committees are always doing their jobs, 100% of the time, to the best of their abilities. My guess, and yes, it's only a guess, based on what I have seen is that this is not true.

This is my opinion based on the courses I play and you can choose to disagree, since there is no way of determining whether or not this is true.

[Gary Hill]

Any further questions on the Rules regarding the duties and responsibilities of the Committee (Rule 33) will be answered here.

Any further postings regarding opinions as to the performance level of Committees in Ottawa will be moved to Local Golf News.

[spidey]

Hey, some people consider it a game... like a card game. Wildcards aren't part of the original rules of poker, but there are dozens of games that have spun off from the original rules.

The unofficial games of golf are much the same. Like playing call-shot. Playing call-shot in a game with your buddy may not be according to the rules, I suppose it could be construed as giving advice - or giving bad advice - but it's still a game that's played.

So bad poker players play wildcards and extra cards, bad golfers play preferred lies, mulligans, gimmes, no OB, whatever. It's not golf, but it's golf modified by agreed rules by the golfing companions involved.

I think the point that Gary is making is not that you can't do it. But if you come into a golf forum, specifically the Golf Rules forum, I think the moderator has every right to assume that you want an official answer to an official situation.

So if you're playing a stipulated round where you're expected to be playing by the rules, you cannot deem anything GUR even if you think it should be. If you think the committee would rule in your favour, then you may invoke the option of playing two balls and allowing the committee to decide your score. If your ball ended in a recently dug hole with irrigation equipment lying around and workers and equipment nearby, you stand a chance of getting the call. Otherwise, I'd stick to playing the ball as it lies, unless you can invoke another rule appropriately from the rules.

...simply... there is only one set of sanctioned rules for golf. If you want to debate whether there should be or not, I think you've picked the wrong thread to post in.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by spidey
Hey, some people consider it a game... like a card game. Wildcards aren't part of the original rules of poker, but there are dozens of games that have spun off from the original rules.

The unofficial games of golf are much the same. Like playing call-shot. Playing call-shot in a game with your buddy may not be according to the rules, I suppose it could be construed as giving advice - or giving bad advice - but it's still a game that's played.

So bad poker players play wildcards and extra cards, bad golfers play preferred lies, mulligans, gimmes, no OB, whatever. It's not golf, but it's golf modified by agreed rules by the golfing companions involved.

I think the point that Gary is making is not that you can't do it. But if you come into a golf forum, specifically the Golf Rules forum, I think the moderator has every right to assume that you want an official answer to an official situation.

So if you're playing a stipulated round where you're expected to be playing by the rules, you cannot deem anything GUR even if you think it should be. If you think the committee would rule in your favour, then you may invoke the option of playing two balls and allowing the committee to decide your score. If your ball ended in a recently dug hole with irrigation equipment lying around and workers and equipment nearby, you stand a chance of getting the call. Otherwise, I'd stick to playing the ball as it lies, unless you can invoke another rule appropriately from the rules.

...simply... there is only one set of sanctioned rules for golf. If you want to debate whether there should be or not, I think you've picked the wrong thread to post in.

Nothing here for me to disagree with, and as for whether this was the correct thread, it all began rather innocently...really.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Gary Hill
Any further questions on the Rules regarding the duties and responsibilities of the Committee (Rule 33) will be answered here.

Ok, I'll bite, here's the scenario:

I'm playing golf at a local course, and on one hole my ball comes to rest on some dirt that was obviously recently-excavated for the burial of irrigation pipes. That area isn't marked as GUR, but its obvious (to me) that it should be. I choose, as the rules allow, to play two balls - the first being the original ball sitting on the dirt, the other being a ball that I drop outside the *apparent* GUR area in accordance with the rules. I play both balls, mark the score for both, and will raise the issue with the committee following the round to determine which score/ball should stand.

Upon completion of the round neither the kid in the pro shop, the cart girl nor the guy on the tractor have any idea what I'm getting at when I ask about the committee that is to make the judgement on whether that ground should have been GUR. I leave but call the next day as I want to record the proper score. No one at the course can be bothered, and I don't know what score to post.

Do I have recourse if the club can't give me an answer or if getting an answer would require undue effort on my part?

If so, then the rules reflect reality. If not, then they need to be updated to recognize that golf is played in places other than well run clubs.

[Gary Hill]

“Ground under repair’’ is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. It includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked.

Beause your ball was in ground under repair by definition, a ruling by the cart girl is not required.

In any case, you will not be penalized for unduly delay play because you played two balls.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Gary Hill
“Ground under repair’’ is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. It includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked.

Beause your ball was in ground under repair by definition, a ruling by the cart girl is not required.

Well now I'm really confused, because in my scenario, the pile of dirt wasn't marked as GUR or visibly designated as such in any way. That's why I had to take two balls and go in search of the committee. Careful, because it looks like you just let me determine that the pile of dirt was GUR all by myself.

[Curious George]

Originally, Spidey, my point was this: how many people on this rules thread ask these rules questions, but in reality do things like:
- hit mulligans
- drop the ball near the woods (where it went in) instead of teeing it up again (especially makes for slow play at a public golf course)
- take a gimme on a 6 inch putt, despite having just missed it, or after hitting it quickly (assuming it was an easy putt)

I think most.

My second point was that the game is just that, people should not be getting worked up over it, or insulting others, or removing their comments because they don't agree with that person. yes, the rules are great for people trying to make it all official, I wasn't attacking those people...I wasn't attacking anyone, but got attacked...

[spidey]

Nobody got attacked.

Questions were raised that led to debate. I seriously doubt that anybody had any intention to address anything other than the points raised. If people want to take personal affront that their ideas can be challenged, that's their prerogative.

This entire forum is one of the most polite and flame-free forums I've ever seen. If you think the heat is up here, you've obviously not explored very far.

[Slammin' Stever]

In all fairness Gary is quoting the rules as they are written down in the game of golf. Like it or lump it

I see that the problem is the enforcement of possible fair rulings by these "so called committees" on behalf of the average mere mortal, greens fees player. Whether it is a man power issue, time constraint issue, a dollar constraint issue, or even their lack of knowledge about reinforcement of these issues, whatever. They choose not to do their work fairly and properly when addressing these "on course issues" on behalf of greens fees players. Maybe the course members should complain.

Remember these are the same associates and owners that allow things like, sprinkers to be on in fairways and greens when "mere mortals" are trying to play this fair game of golf. Or greens keepers who keep changing holes while you are waiting to do your approach shot to the green. Of course they follow you around doing their assigned duty of changing the pins. Or the greens keepers leaving a "british open" pile of grass cuttings on the back of the green. Or cowboy marshals who take short cuts around a bend and end up suddenly facing you exactly as your teeing off. Greens keepers sitting there running their mower as your trying a tricky chip or how about that monster drive you hit only to find it sitting in the part of the fairway that looks like a cow pasture or a mud bowl. Conditions that should have been address months ago by this powerless or inactive committee.
Or how about the growning complaint of overbooking of courses, conditions that drain your energy, loose your concentration, and interupt your flow of this fair game. Let Tiger play a six and half hour round waiting at every tee box and see what he shoots. And I am sure that you guys can think of alot more "fair" conditions!.....and the pro's complain of a camera shutter going off...

I guess the point that I am trying to make is the type of conditions and the courses that the "pro's" play compared to us "mere mortal golfers" or "flogers" and the way the game and conditions are regulated compared to the "spoiled elite", is like comparing apples to oranges...Unfortunately we get alot more rotten fruit chucked our way when we are not the elite.

So remember next time your in a deep thick muddy tire rutt and you play your shot and you come out of the hole with a bogey or double bogey or what ever. Hold your head high knowing that you weren't spoon fed and you played the shot the best you could. Maybe Tiger would not have scored much better but more then likely he would have complained alot more...................to the commitee of course!

Stever

[Big_duck]

-- Original post removed.

[Deep red]

How is that different than what Gary has been saying all through this thread?
Or was that your point in backing him up?

[Slammin' Stever]

Just telling it the way it is...like it or lump it.

...... Ball in a soft lush lie in the middle of the fairway...like it!

.......Ball sitting in a muddy tire groove in the middle of the fairway..... lump it!!!

Stever

[Slammin' Stever]

You never know where your ball will end up! :bear y sas :hello