Match Play and Giving Strokes

[hackzaw]

I played in a match play format on the weekend. I played against a very nice gentleman, who just happed to have one arm. His handicap was 28, and mine at 11, I had to give him 17 strokes.

In match play, the ultimate score doesn't make any difference at all.... it's simply who wins the hole, right? Where this system of using handicap, I believe, breaks down is in the circumstance when a competitor changes their style of play, perhaps taking a greater risk shot, but if it pays off, it works out great. If it doesn't work out, at worst, they just loose the hole.

But the handicap established is based on a different style of play. For sure, in the case of my match, my competitor made some shots, which for sure he wouldn't have attempted the shot in a normal round, but managed to pull the shot off.

This is a classic example. On hole #3 it's slight dogled left, requiring only a 200 yard downhill drive, but then it's a 130 carry over a creek to a 150 yard pin. My competitor, hit his driver on the right side, so he had probably 150 carry over the creek. Normally, he would have laid up short of the creek, third shot on the green, 2 putts for bogie - which is fair that I give him 1 stroke in this circumstance.

However, he pulls out his 3 wood, and I must admit, he hit a great shot, but BARELY cleared the creek... it bounces up onto the green in two, and he two putts for par. So I give him one stroke based on a certain style of play, but he deviates from that style, pulls it off, and wins the hole.

Is it fair?

BTW - yes I lost the match 3 down two to play, but I'm not bitter. I just played crappy.

[jvincent]

There was a looooong thread similar to this earlier.

Long story short, the handicapping system is not perfect and can't possibly cover all scenarios. It is however generally accurate assuming that an individual isn't artificially manipulating the system.

[pvs1313]

what has to be taken into consideration here is this.

as long as your FC is not a true "sandbagger" they will have a handicap that reflects their abiolity. now like you say, if in match play they shoose to make a more "risky" shot and it pays off great , that is their choise, remember , since they are a 28, it is more likely that the ball will slice off crazily and end up in the trees or creek whatever.

it is all abouit risk reward.

if he is truely a 28 handicap, then he was somewhat ucky his shot worked, so more power to him, and that is why the suystem generally works

[Kilroy]

150 carry over the creek is not what most people (even a 28) would consider high risk. Most high handicappers would go for a shot of 150 yards. If as you say he barely cleared it with a 3 wood, I doubt he was a sandbagger. He may usually lay up for saftey, but it's a pretty reasonable risk.

[hoolio]

150 carry over the creek is not what most people (even a 28) would consider high risk. Most high handicappers would go for a shot of 150 yards. If as you say he barely cleared it with a 3 wood, I doubt he was a sandbagger. He may usually lay up for saftey, but it's a pretty reasonable risk.

The guy had one arm. I might be a little biased because I have twice as many arms, but that shot sounds pretty high risk.

[Kilroy]

The guy had one arm. I might be a little biased because I have twice as many arms, but that shot sounds pretty high risk.

Hmmm. I fiured that was a joke.

[hackzaw]

No kidding. I had twice as many arms as my FC. He had a left arm and a prosthetic on the right. He swung with only the one arm (right handed). He putted with both.

I have to say it was truely impressive to see him play as well as he did with his limitations.

He was no sandbagger as far as I could tell. In fact, I think his raw score had him 3 worse than his handicap. Had I played just to my handicap, I would have won.

[Txxxxxxx]

The guy is a 28, whether or not he makes high risk shots or not, in my mind, makes no difference. If he's a 28, what are the odds he pulls off those shots? Probably pretty slim to none.

I think the handicap reflects his ability to make high risk shots. Even when playing a normal round on his own, even if he tries to make those shots, his final score will probably reveal he made them at a low percentage. The other thing to take into consideration is this. Say he laid up on that shot. So he's laying two short of the creek. Then he chips on...Assuming he chips it close enough to one-putt, he still makes the same score.

I agree though.....The handicap system is not perfect. In fact, like in the article about Oakmont, a low handicapper can be low because their course is not very difficult, then play one that's more difficult, and play to ten strokes more than he is used to.

[pvs1313]

all though not perfect, the hadnicap system dies take into affect playing on an easy course then a hard one

if you establisha low ahndicap on a course with like a 100 rating, then play one with 140, your course handicap will reflect the change

it is a pretty fair systme for evening out everyones ability across many diffeent couerse. you just have to make sure you use it properly and fairly and honestly

[Txxxxxxx]

all though not perfect, the hadnicap system dies take into affect playing on an easy course then a hard one

if you establisha low ahndicap on a course with like a 100 rating, then play one with 140, your course handicap will reflect the change

it is a pretty fair systme for evening out everyones ability across many diffeent couerse. you just have to make sure you use it properly and fairly and honestly

I guess I may have worded it wrong...

I meant if say I am a member at a course that is 138, and my friend is a member of a course that is rated 125 or lower for example, it would be tough to compare us as golfers by looking at our handicap. We could both be scratch players, but one course is not as difficult as the other. If he played my course, he'd probably play well above his handicap. If I played his course, there's a good chance I would play below my handicap.

[BC MIST]

I meant if say I am a member at a course that is 138, and my friend is a member of a course that is rated 125 or lower for example, it would be tough to compare us as golfers by looking at our handicap. We could both be scratch players, but one course is not as difficult as the other. If he played my course, he'd probably play well above his handicap. If I played his course, there's a good chance I would play below my handicap.

Two courses may have the degree of difficulty for the scratch golfers, but may have significantly varying slopes. A higher slope means that the course is more difficult for the "Bogey" golfer, but not necessarily the scratch golfer. If all the bunkers and all the water hazards were placed 200 to 230 yards from the tee, the scratch golfer easily flies the ball over the trouble making the trouble a non-factor. But, the bogey golfer would have the bunker and water come in to play on every shot, making the trouble a huge impediment to lower scoring for him.

[Txxxxxxx]

Two courses may have the degree of difficulty for the scratch golfers, but may have significantly varying slopes. A higher slope means that the course is more difficult for the "Bogey" golfer, but not necessarily the scratch golfer. If all the bunkers and all the water hazards were placed 200 to 230 yards from the tee, the scratch golfer easily flies the ball over the trouble making the trouble a non-factor. But, the bogey golfer would have the bunker and water come in to play on every shot, making the trouble a huge impediment to lower scoring for him.

The other thing to consider with your example is this...A guy I play with hits his driver deep and would easily carry the bunkers in your example, but he can't chip or putt to save his life, so he's a bogey golfer. There are too many different shots and factors to simply compare golfers by their handicap if they play at the same course all the time.

Just my two cents.

[BC MIST]

The other thing to consider with your example is this...A guy I play with hits his driver deep and would easily carry the bunkers in your example, but he can't chip or putt to save his life, so he's a bogey golfer. There are too many different shots and factors to simply compare golfers by their handicap if they play at the same course all the time.

Just my two cents.

Fine, but. The Handicap System is not based on whether a golfer can chip and putt, play well out of bunkers or whatever. It defines a bogey golfer as one who can hit his drives 200 yards and can reach a 370 yard hole in 2. On a course of average difficulty he would have a handicap of 20. Applying the system's definition to my description above, you can see why trouble at 200 yards would force him to play short and in so doing, increase the possibility of a greater score. Therefore, the slope would be higher on this kind of course.

Now, if the course had no bunkers or water in the 200 yard area he would NOT have to play short, would likely have lower scores, and the slope would not be as high.

The bogey golfer is NOT based on the exception where "my grandfather smoked 4 packs a day, drank two bottles of scotch and lived to be 110."

[Txxxxxxx]

Fine, but. The Handicap System is not based on whether a golfer can chip and putt, play well out of bunkers or whatever. It defines a bogey golfer as one who can hit his drives 200 yards and can reach a 370 yard hole in 2. On a course of average difficulty he would have a handicap of 20. Applying the system's definition to my description above, you can see why trouble at 200 yards would force him to play short and in so doing, increase the possibility of a greater score. Therefore, the slope would be higher on this kind of course.

Now, if the course had no bunkers or water in the 200 yard area he would NOT have to play short, would likely have lower scores, and the slope would not be as high.

The bogey golfer is NOT based on the exception where "my grandfather smoked 4 packs a day, drank two bottles of scotch and lived to be 110."

For sure. The definition is there. It doesn't mean that everyone who falls under that category is going to be someone who only hits their drive 200 yards or has the same problems within their game. You could be a very good ball striker, reach the green in regulation, and 3 putt all day. See where I'm going with this? The numbers people put up are not black and white and won't necessarily define the way a player plays on a hole. I know it works to some extent, but there lies the problem with handicap and judging a bogey golfer and how he plays his shots.

Just an opinion of course, but that's the way I see it. To me, numbers don't mean a lot in most cases. It's the same in every sport though. Look at the NCAA..Teams that are undefeated might have a very easy schedule and still play for the NCAA championship based on their record. It's like playing at an easy course and being a scratch golfer. Odds are if you played at a course with a higher difficulty level, you wouldn't be a scratch.