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  1. #1
    Monday Qualifier Started2k3 is on a distinguished road
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    Calling BC - Right hand drill

    I didn't want to 'jack Geoff's thread so I will do it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerdraw View Post
    i dont like his right wrist cock drill personnaly, i dont think it is necessary to use that, that is the right elbows job not an intentionnal one, although alot of his stuff seems good...my 2cents.

    have an awesome night.
    Agree with you. If you check the position at the top of most good players, the left wrist is flat(square) while the right wrist is bent backwards. Flexing the wrists side to side versus up and down will make it easier to get into this position. Flexing the wrists up and down will NOT achieve the flat left wrist and this flat left wrist position, if maintained, is the ideal impact position. If the cupped left wrist position is maintained to impact, the bottom of the swing arc will be back of the ball, not in front of it.

    The differences are subtle, but significant.

    BC Mist, you critique this drill but you seem to say the exact same thing as Greg does.
    http://members.cox.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

    Greg's main points:
    - strongly advocates a bent back right wrist - same as you (correct?)
    - strongly against "flipping" which you call a cupped left wrist, and realizes that this is a HUGE power drain on the swing - same as you (correct?)

    When you watch the video you will realize that he is implicitly advocating a flat left wrist. This can be seen everytime he gets to the impact position in the video. In other discussions with him on the GTO forum, he has said either FLW or slightly bowed ((probably acedemic because I am sure you can find a pro with bowed left wrist (why does Hogan come to mind?)) but never cupped.

    The bolded section of your statement seems to imply that a "half flip" of the wrists is the proper method of wrist cock (wrists release to the point of FLW). Is this what you are saying?

    Charles
    Back at it.

  2. #2
    Monday Qualifier Started2k3 is on a distinguished road
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    It appears that BC does not want to respond. If anybody else has an opinion I would like to hear it.
    Back at it.

  3. #3
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Started2k3 View Post
    I didn't want to 'jack Geoff's thread so I will do it here.




    BC Mist, you critique this drill but you seem to say the exact same thing as Greg does.
    http://members.cox.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

    Greg's main points:
    - strongly advocates a bent back right wrist - same as you (correct?)
    - strongly against "flipping" which you call a cupped left wrist, and realizes that this is a HUGE power drain on the swing - same as you (correct?)

    When you watch the video you will realize that he is implicitly advocating a flat left wrist. This can be seen everytime he gets to the impact position in the video. In other discussions with him on the GTO forum, he has said either FLW or slightly bowed ((probably acedemic because I am sure you can find a pro with bowed left wrist (why does Hogan come to mind?)) but never cupped.

    The bolded section of your statement seems to imply that a "half flip" of the wrists is the proper method of wrist cock (wrists release to the point of FLW). Is this what you are saying?

    Charles
    Ahh but I do.

    IMO, if the left wrist is cupped then the right is not bent back as much as it would be, if the left were flat. With the cupped left, there is a greater chance of the arc bottoming out under or back of the ball, instead of in front of the ball.

    The image that comes to mind is the pic of Hogan in "5 Fundamentals" at impact. If you have it, the flat left and the bent right is very apparent, in spite of Hogan's top of the backswing position where one of his "secrets" was to have a slightly cupped left. So what was the point of the cupped at the top if it was flat at impact?

    Does this answer the question?

    I did not watch the video above because being still on dialup, I don't have the patience to wait for it to download.

  4. #4
    Sir Post-a-lot dH is on a distinguished road dH's Avatar
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    Question: HOW bent should my wrist be? I've been following Bc's tips and since the beginning of the year I've been playing hands down the best golf of my life. I'm averaging 1/3 pars. This is from a guy who normally if I got 1 out of 18 it was a good day!.

    So my question: How bent do you try and kep the right wrist BC?

    Thanks!

  5. #5
    Monday Qualifier Started2k3 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    I did not watch the video above because being still on dialup, I don't have the patience to wait for it to download.
    OK, your comments make more sense now. You are missing some some by not watching the video and only going by the text. Greg is a (mini) pro golfer, not a writer.
    Back at it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Ahh but I do.

    IMO, if the left wrist is cupped then the right is not bent back as much as it would be, if the left were flat. With the cupped left, there is a greater chance of the arc bottoming out under or back of the ball, instead of in front of the ball.
    We both agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post

    The image that comes to mind is the pic of Hogan in "5 Fundamentals" at impact. If you have it, the flat left and the bent right is very apparent, in spite of Hogan's top of the backswing position where one of his "secrets" was to have a slightly cupped left. So what was the point of the cupped at the top if it was flat at impact?
    Hogan doesn't look that "cupped" at the top of the back swing. See attached. However, he can look cupped depending on the camera angle. IMO Hogan looks very flat at the top of the backswing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Does this answer the question?
    Kind of, but not quite. So you are advocating a reverse flipping of the wrists - cupped left wrist at top of the back swing and flat at impact.

    If you want to do an experiment on what Greg is talking about try this:
    - Get a ruler and attach it to your left forearm
    - get into your impact position (ideal or actual if you can)
    - mark a spot (dot 1) on the back of your left hand where the a corner of a ruler is located
    - get into your top of the backswing position
    - mark a second spot (dot 2) on the back of your left hand where the same corner of a ruler is located

    You should find that dot 1 should be close to the index finger knuckle and the dot 2 will be a few inches way closer to your pinky finger.

    The only way to get the corner of the ruler from dot 1 to dot 2, while in the impact position, is a vertical up movement. Note that the right wrist is still bent and the left wrist is still flat.

    Now move to the top of the backswing position, and make the corner of the ruler go to dot 1. This is a complete loss of wristcock. This is obvious, but the longer you can keep the ruler on dot 2 during your downswing the longer you can hold the wristcock during your swing.

    Did you try it? What do you think?
    Back at it.

  7. #7
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Started2k3 View Post
    We both agree on this.

    Hogan doesn't look that "cupped" at the top of the back swing. See attached. However, he can look cupped depending on the camera angle. IMO Hogan looks very flat at the top of the backswing.

    Kind of, but not quite. So you are advocating a reverse flipping of the wrists - cupped left wrist at top of the back swing and flat at impact.

    If you want to do an experiment on what Greg is talking about try this:
    - Get a ruler and attach it to your left forearm
    - get into your impact position (ideal or actual if you can)
    - mark a spot (dot 1) on the back of your left hand where the a corner of a ruler is located
    - get into your top of the backswing position
    - mark a second spot (dot 2) on the back of your left hand where the same corner of a ruler is located

    You should find that dot 1 should be close to the index finger knuckle and the dot 2 will be a few inches way closer to your pinky finger.

    The only way to get the corner of the ruler from dot 1 to dot 2, while in the impact position, is a vertical up movement. Note that the right wrist is still bent and the left wrist is still flat.

    Now move to the top of the backswing position, and make the corner of the ruler go to dot 1. This is a complete loss of wristcock. This is obvious, but the longer you can keep the ruler on dot 2 during your downswing the longer you can hold the wristcock during your swing.

    Did you try it? What do you think?
    Hogan is flat in 5 Fundamentals, but cupped in the "Life" magazine article about his secret.

    I an not advocating any kind of flipping of the wrists at all. Once the wrists are in the left flat, right bent, position, I believe that every effort be made to maintain that position until the finish. As I said above, inertia will likely prevent that from happening, but any attempt to "release" the wrists, will lead to inconsistency. With the firmly set right wrist, just beat DOWN on the inside of the ball, for maximum distance and control. It is a FEELING that the hands are a foot ahead of the ball at impact. The ability to hold on to this angle normally prevents a hook for a better player and encourages a slight fade, but a lot of that depends on the grip position.

    I will try your experiment later and let you know what I think.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Hogan is flat in 5 Fundamentals, but cupped in the "Life" magazine article about his secret.

    I an not advocating any kind of flipping of the wrists at all. Once the wrists are in the left flat, right bent, position, I believe that every effort be made to maintain that position until the finish. As I said above, inertia will likely prevent that from happening, but any attempt to "release" the wrists, will lead to inconsistency. With the firmly set right wrist, just beat DOWN on the inside of the ball, for maximum distance and control. It is a FEELING that the hands are a foot ahead of the ball at impact. The ability to hold on to this angle normally prevents a hook for a better player and encourages a slight fade, but a lot of that depends on the grip position.

    I will try your experiment later and let you know what I think.
    I don't know about the "Life" article. He may have been able to get more wristcock with a cupped wrist, but this would have been at the expense of a greater requirement for timing. But this is just a thought.

    BOLD - Amen brother.

    I agree that INERTIA will "release" the wrists, but I think this can be "held off" until later in the downswing with very little effort. I think this is why it is called "release" because the wrists are actually acting against inertia and then they stop/release the force acting against inertia.
    Back at it.

  9. #9
    Championship Cup PEI Golfing is on a distinguished road PEI Golfing's Avatar
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    Here is the April 2004 (Golf Digest article) in which Hogan's real secret is revealed.
    "Despite revealing his "Secret" to Life magazine in 1955, Hogan is widely suspected to have kept the true key to his swing to himself. Here, one man who was close to Hogan sheds new light on the intricacies of his fantastic technique."
    http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...gansecret.html

    "The key part of the secret was keeping the right knee bent inward and running it forward and toward the ball.
    Hogan explained that the harder he wanted to hit the ball, the faster he ran his right knee at the ball. That's why his hips unwound so fast on the downswing. In his mind, he ran his right knee to the ball, while feeling a complete sense of balance and control. For him, the feeling of his knee was the only thing that mattered -- he forgot about everything else in his body during that part of the swing."

    Regarding the other part of the secret, the cupping of the left wrist. Most people speculate Hogan did this more to combat the hooking of the ball which he had many problems with early on in his career. For those of us amateurs who have a problem with a fade, the cupping will only cause more problems as it opens the clubface at the top of the swing.
    "So many moving parts. Your whole body's moving, and this ball is not moving. It's standing still, laughing at you." [B] Tiger Woods[/B]

  10. #10
    Monday Qualifier Started2k3 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI Golfing View Post
    Here is the April 2004 (Golf Digest article) in which Hogan's real secret is revealed.
    "Despite revealing his "Secret" to Life magazine in 1955, Hogan is widely suspected to have kept the true key to his swing to himself. Here, one man who was close to Hogan sheds new light on the intricacies of his fantastic technique."
    http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...gansecret.html

    "The key part of the secret was keeping the right knee bent inward and running it forward and toward the ball.
    Hogan explained that the harder he wanted to hit the ball, the faster he ran his right knee at the ball. That's why his hips unwound so fast on the downswing. In his mind, he ran his right knee to the ball, while feeling a complete sense of balance and control. For him, the feeling of his knee was the only thing that mattered -- he forgot about everything else in his body during that part of the swing."

    Regarding the other part of the secret, the cupping of the left wrist. Most people speculate Hogan did this more to combat the hooking of the ball which he had many problems with early on in his career. For those of us amateurs who have a problem with a fade, the cupping will only cause more problems as it opens the clubface at the top of the swing.
    That is Daly's secret also, but he actually endorsed a gadget. I have a video of him using it somewhere - Google - John Daly Powerbelt.
    Back at it.

  11. #11
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Started2k3 View Post
    I agree that INERTIA will "release" the wrists, but I think this can be "held off" until later in the downswing with very little effort. I think this is why it is called "release" because the wrists are actually acting against inertia and then they stop/release the force acting against inertia.
    I guess that it is like the old "crack the whip" idea. The longer you can maintain radial acceleration of the arms, the later they slow down (almost stop), the later the leverage angles straighten, the greater the club head speed.

    The problem with most of us is that as soon as the arms stop accelerating, the right wrist begins to straighten and power and some accuracy is lost. Those of us who consciously try and keep the back of the right wrist flexed will do much better than those who feel that they must "release the club." The Bertholy exercises help to develop the strength/flexibility to maintain the right wrist angle.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    I guess that it is like the old "crack the whip" idea. The longer you can maintain radial acceleration of the arms, the later they slow down (almost stop), the later the leverage angles straighten, the greater the club head speed.

    The problem with most of us is that as soon as the arms stop accelerating, the right wrist begins to straighten and power and some accuracy is lost. Those of us who consciously try and keep the back of the right wrist flexed will do much better than those who feel that they must "release the club." The Bertholy exercises help to develop the strength/flexibility to maintain the right wrist angle.
    I almost completely disagree with the "crack the whip" idea, because, as I understand it, requires some ACTIVE PUSH WITH THE CENTRIFUGAL FORCE (inertia). What I am describing is an active PULL AGAINST the centrifugal force by the wrists to delay "release". And as you say this should lead to greater clubhead speed.
    Back at it.

  13. #13
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Started2k3 View Post
    I almost completely disagree with the "crack the whip" idea, because, as I understand it, requires some ACTIVE PUSH WITH THE CENTRIFUGAL FORCE (inertia). What I am describing is an active PULL AGAINST the centrifugal force by the wrists to delay "release". And as you say this should lead to greater clubhead speed.
    I am no scientist and my aging brain is fuzzy on what you mean. In comparing the crack the whip to the golf swing transition, the arm starts forward before the whip has finished going back creating the "lag." When the arm stops going forward, the whip does keep going forward and it "cracks." Is this not similar to what the arms and club shaft do at the transition to impact?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    I am no scientist and my aging brain is fuzzy on what you mean. In comparing the crack the whip to the golf swing transition, the arm starts forward before the whip has finished going back creating the "lag." When the arm stops going forward, the whip does keep going forward and it "cracks." Is this not similar to what the arms and club shaft do at the transition to impact?
    From outward appearances yes, but in actuallity no. That is how a whip works, but the rigidity of the golf shaft cannot act like a whip (well maybe over the distance a few inches). Your arms cannot become immobile, and if they could the shaft would probably break - just think about how well a shaft does when it hits a tree trunk (Tiger recently).

    The arms slow because angular momentum is preserved. Think about a figure skater spinning - arms in and she spins rapidly (high rpms) - arms out and she spins slower (lower rpms).

    This is a great link on momentum and late release and the effect on clubhead speed and arm speed.
    http://www.angelfire.com/realm/moeto..._Kelley_1.html
    Back at it.

  15. #15
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Started2k3 View Post
    From outward appearances yes, but in actuallity no. That is how a whip works, but the rigidity of the golf shaft cannot act like a whip (well maybe over the distance a few inches). Your arms cannot become immobile, and if they could the shaft would probably break - just think about how well a shaft does when it hits a tree trunk (Tiger recently).

    The arms slow because angular momentum is preserved. Think about a figure skater spinning - arms in and she spins rapidly (high rpms) - arms out and she spins slower (lower rpms).

    This is a great link on momentum and late release and the effect on clubhead speed and arm speed.
    http://www.angelfire.com/realm/moeto..._Kelley_1.html
    I have read mandarin's scientific reports on the Single Axis Forum for years, with some understanding and what he says regarding the above issue makes sense. He actually helped me through Jorgensen's MOI club matching method, and I gather, lives in the Gatineau's. Wouldn't mind having a mind like his.

  16. #16
    Monday Qualifier Started2k3 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    I have read mandarin's scientific reports on the Single Axis Forum for years, with some understanding and what he says regarding the above issue makes sense. He actually helped me through Jorgensen's MOI club matching method, and I gather, lives in the Gatineau's. Wouldn't mind having a mind like his.
    I found the link on the SA forum, but I have no idea who mandarin is. The physics knowledge that he shows is very good, and from what I can tell accurate. I had recently passed Mandarin's link on to Dave Tutelman - he seemed interested in finding out who he is. Maybe you could let Mandarin know? Or do you know what his "handle" is on the SA forum?

    Have I just 'jacked my own thread?

    Back on topic, did you ever try the experiment I described earlier?
    Back at it.

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