Pace of Play

[NoBack]

I thought I would move this debate/topic into its own thread because it seems to be a good topic of discussion.

To continue on pace of play..........

I've been golfing over 25 years now and have found no problem getting tee offs before 7am, before 8am, before 9 and also after 10 on weekends.

What I have found is that if you want to play at ANY course in town and play at a really good pace go early.

6am to 7am should not take more than 4 hours
7am to 8am should be around that 4 1/2 hours
8am to 9am should be between 4 1/2 and 5 hours

After that............. just enjoy the day, your friends and the weather and the golf. Dont expect to be playing that 4 hour round. Now of course there will be some who dont agree, but this is what I have found at most courses.

Only an opinion here.
If all of us playing this great game would be more concience of the group behind us then we would be closer to the group in front of us.

NOTE.........This post was intended to find SOLUTIONS to slow play and not to bash any course. Much is on the shoulders of players that may not be informed on proper etiquette and therefore resulting in slower pace.

[Curious George]

Golf would play much more smoothly if groups follow simple etiquette. If there is space in front of you, and the group behind you can keep up, let them play through. (Then again, I have the same complaint about the left lane on the Queensway).

My #2 complaint: ugly babies. Keep them at home, for god's sake.

[gumby]

just my two cents....from working as a marshall on a golf course i have found that when i tell people that they are slow the answer i get is "well the group behind isnt pushing us"..never mind that there is a whole hole empty in front of them..i thing that you should be more aware of the group in front of you..you should be half a hole behind..ie if they are on the green, you should be waiting to hit to it..never mind the group behind, they maybe as slow as you, and the marshal will ask them to pick up the pace as well...
on a crowded course letting a group play through doesnt buy you anything, its just moved the problem back a spot..and will create a backup there as well...just pick up the pace of play and stay with the group in front...if you are that slow the marhal should ask you to move your ball to where you should be..tee of from the forward tees or some other such solution..or like stonebridge come back latter...
one of the problems at publiuc courses is the great variety of abilities..your group may be scrathc golfers, but the group behind could be total novices..that affects play as well..i have heard of some courses in the states where on weekends if you are over a certain handicap you cant book a prime time..only latter in the day..maybe a bit drastic but a solution..
i know when i started i didnt play a full size course till i could hit a ball at least 150 yards..played par 3 courses till i felt comfortable...
my two cents anyway

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Steve Karam
Much is on the shoulders of players that may not be informed on proper etiquette and therefore resulting in slower pace.

I agree that players themselves can be the biggest influence on pace - playing ready golf, not lingering on the tee, people playing within the limits of their ability are huge contributors to pace. The onus is on the courses, however, to create an environment where a reasonble pace is possible. This means marshalls who actually marshall golfers, reasonable intervals between tee offs, etc, etc.

[The Shtick]

clock system..... nuff said.

[gumby]

we had a clock system on our course, we would explain it on the first green....
guess what...hey mister your clocks are wrong they all have the same time?????marshalls should be allowed to carry cattle prods hooked up to the cart batteries for just a little extra voltage

[Curious George]

I agree totally about ready golf, I'm a 100% ready golfer, but I have problems with the marshalling.

I was playing roughly bogey golf one time (I am a slow player, but I don't waste time), part of a 2 person group, when the group behind us (3 people) complained about us (we were being held up by a 4-some, but they were too dumb to realize this). It turns out the marshall was dumb too. He told us to hold why they played through (they weren't members, we asked). We stayed on their ass all day, at every tee box, complained at the end, and never returned.

Another time, a marshall came up to us (one person in my group was having a slow start), and said "speed up" (we weren't that far back). Nothing is worse. The player hacked even more. 3 holes later, at the back nine, he was playing very well, but the marshall didn't help.

Finally, I've had marshalls who say "speed up" at ridiculous moments (right after the first tee at Canadian), and or during ONE bad hole.

I'm all for proper marshalling, but I don't see it often. I think its true we have a responsibility for efficient play, but there are slow golfers out there. Let them enjoy the game too.

I AM STILL ADVOCATING letting groups play through (it is proven that in traffic, when cars pull over and let other cars go by, traffic goes through more smoothly, with less jams...same applies to golf).

[Slicer]

No joke, played a round in Kingston last month with one other golfer and took us 6 hours to finish the round. 3 clowns in front of us somehow got on the course sharing one cart and one set of clubs. I'd say by the time they reached the back 9 there was 2 holes open in front of them. Didn't have the common sense to let us, and others play through and I didn't see a Marshall all day. All three were first time golfers (or so it seemed), and yet decided to play from the back tees. Actually saw them drive the cart into bunkers and onto greens several times. Should have mugshots posted in clubhouses and banned for life.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Slicer
Didn't have the common sense to let us, and others play through and I didn't see a Marshall all day. All three were first time golfers (or so it seemed), and yet decided to play from the back tees. Actually saw them drive the cart into bunkers and onto greens several times. Should have mugshots posted in clubhouses and banned for life.

There are two legit uses of a cell phone on the golf course:

1. Call 911 in case someone gets beaned in the head or has a heart attack

2. Call the pro shop to let them know about idiots on the course

[lcatley]

The effectiveness of a Marshall could be greatly improved if they stopped to remember that they are dealing with paying customers and when asking for a group to speed up, they addressed them accordingly. I have encountered Marshals who are down right rude and treat people as if they were idiots. Treating people with respect and politeness will garner more cooperation.

Another issue I have is the Carts must stay on the paths rule. I can understand this when a hole is in need of time to recover but to always implement this rule, as some courses do, really adds to the time required to play a shot. Not knowing yardage, binging multiple clubs to your ball, then forgetting one or more and having to go back for it are major contributors to wasted time. If you don't want carts on the fairways, don't offer them. If you are concerned about people driving on greens and tees, proper marshaling will address that.

What it really comes down to is good effective marshalling. That means have Marshals that treat people with respect and having enough of them to properly monitor play on the course. The question is, are we willing to pay more in green fees to get proper marshalling???

[gumby]

i know at our course we always try to be polite,however, paying customer or not some people are just what you said idiots...and that hold true for a lot of things..we dont treat them as such but thier actions often indicate that they are not brain surgeons...after u have explaine rules to them several times, asked them not do do something several time etc etc etc...it only leves one conclusion..but you are right, i have had situations where the marshalls have been rude or inconsiderate..when you are dealling with the public you never know what is going to happen...
paying customers..i had one person tell me they paid thier money and the would damn well take as long as they pleased to play the game, never mind the line up of people behind them that were after thier scalps
so what it boils down to, i think, bedopre we say the marshalls arent doing thier jobs is to remember that we deal with all sorts of situations and people and sometimes people are strange...
if you want to see what a marshall goes through call the course that you play at most of the time and maybe they will let you ride with one for a few hours to really see what is like:freak5

[The Shtick]

that's why the clock system works....

It gives players (or marshalls) justification on what's wrong.

[lcatley]

I have no doubt that marshals can get a rough time of it from the "idiots" they encounter on the course. That's unfortunate but a fact of life. I am in the service industry and know just what it is like to deal with those people. I have always found that the fastest way to defuse a situation is maintain composure and never let someone else's behavior determine my own.

So, IMO, someones else's behavior is no excuse for a marshal's behavior, especialy if he carries it over to another group.

[gumby]

sorry i may not have explained it like i thought it...you are right if they are idiots and you have problems with them it shouldnt have any bearing on how you deal with anyone else..and for the most part when you ask people to speed up or whatever if you do so in a polite manner you get whatever you wanted, what i wanted to say was that just because someone paid to play that didnt preclude them from being idiots on the course and before we blamed it on the marshalls we should look around and see how "some" of these paying customers act...didnt mean to paint all as being idiots

[Curious George]

I've played with people who use the "I've paid, I'll play as long as I like". I refuse to play with them again until they follow the rules.

That said, I've seen some marshalls (and players) do some pretty annoying things. Marshalls should be able to approach a team, and politely say "OK guys, I've asked you to hurry, now I'm letting the group behind play through. You can file a complaint at the shop."

The idea of picking up your ball and placing it in an appropriate speedier spot (as mentioned above) is absurd to me. The idea that players should play best ball is also absurd. And yes, cheaper courses (like Champlain, Gatineau, etc.) will always have hacks, and hacks need a place to start too.

Costlier places (like Loch March, Emerald Links, Eagle Creek) should be speedier, and well enforced. I just see any solution other than ready golf and letting groups play through.

[BullDog]

This is the exact thing that I don't get. One of the fundamentals is that every player on a course should have his/her equipment. Another mentioned earlier in the thread is that you should at least be able to play to a certain standard. I didn't play at 10:15am on a Saturday until I had been to the driving range with my father and having played 2-3 holes on a regulation course on Wednesday nights or something, when nobody else was around.

Now so many owners don't seem to care about skill, etiquette, equipment or anything, as long as people just pay the almighty buck. Dress codes have been all but forgotten on some of the courses around here too. I mean, I'm not for taking everything to the Nth degree but should we not maintain at least some dignity out there and run golf courses with the game in mind and not just cram anybody and everybody at all cost?

Mike

Originally posted by Slicer
No joke, played a round in Kingston last month with one other golfer and took us 6 hours to finish the round. 3 clowns in front of us somehow got on the course sharing one cart and one set of clubs. I'd say by the time they reached the back 9 there was 2 holes open in front of them. Didn't have the common sense to let us, and others play through and I didn't see a Marshall all day. All three were first time golfers (or so it seemed), and yet decided to play from the back tees. Actually saw them drive the cart into bunkers and onto greens several times. Should have mugshots posted in clubhouses and banned for life.

[Deep red]

I think we all have to look at this and put it into prospective. Times are changing. If you don't like playing this great game with a bunch of yahoos around you need to seriously look at joining an upper level course. It's the old adage you get what you pay for. There is no way I expect to play a round at most of the public courses in less than 4:30 to 5 hours on the weekends. I also expect that there are going to be people out there for no other reason than to drink and hack away with out regard for the one's that actually are trying. For the most part the Marshall's do a horrendous job and are just putting in there time to get free golf and socialize with people. I have only really been playing for 3 years or so but I have always had a good knowledge of golf and its traditions and etiquette. I have played many of the local public courses and as my game has started to improve so has my desire to get away form the idiots and the sad attempt from some of the courses to keep there facilities in good condition. I guess I am fortunate to be in a position to afford club links or the like in the next few years as I can not imagine having to deal the downward spiral I have seen and heard about in the local Ottawa golf scene.

Personally I like the clock system but you need the right people working to enforce it and not just after nine holes. I was playing Manderley the other day and yes I know they don't have a great reputation as it is for fast play but as I was setting up on the first tee I had to laugh to myself as the Marshall was asking people that were just finishing 18 what there tee off time was. Then after they gave there time he would (in a snarky manner) tell them it took way to long and NEXT time speed up their play (better late than never i guess). I knew right then it was going to be a long day.

[em69]

Manderley is also notorious for telling people to tee-off on the first hole even if you feel the people in front are to close. Almost every time I've been, I had to say "I'll wait a bit longer".

[sparsons]

I read somewhere that over in Sweden you have to take golf lessons and pass. This will get you a license to golf. Only people with a license can golf at all. I find so many people do not have the golf etiquette that is required for everybody to enjoy this great game.

[Slicer]

Sparsons,

I was browsing old discussions yesterday and there was a thread that talked a lot about that. Not only Sweden but a lot of other European countries have the same rule. If you're interested in reading search for thread named "handicaps" under the general forum.

[Gofish2]

Played at a course on Tuesday and got behind 4 sixteen year olds who were hitting from the tips and driving it 250 into the rough. Five minutes on each hole while they searched for their lost balls. Would it have been appropriate for the marshall to ask these testosterone charged lads to hit from the middle ?

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by Gofish2
Played at a course on Tuesday and got behind 4 sixteen year olds who were hitting from the tips and driving it 250 into the rough. Five minutes on each hole while they searched for their lost balls. Would it have been appropriate for the marshall to ask these testosterone charged lads to hit from the middle ?

I'm as big an advocate as there is about people hitting from the correct set of tees, but it would be hard to make that argument with people consistently hitting 250, even if it is into the rough. Its the people hitting from the back who can't keep it out of the woods or who top the ball (gradually) down the fairway who drive me nuts.

[Curious George]

I don't mind people topping it off the back tee once in a while, but its people who don't get ready near their ball while their buddy is hitting (once they are in the fairways)...that drives me nuts.

And I still see people marking down scores on the fringe of a green. That AMAZES me.

Instead of a license of golf, there should be a license/course of common sense.

[Andru]

From my experience people who hit into the trees from the back tees will do it from the middle tees as well. Toping the ball 50 yards at a time is different.

Adding 20 yards to a hole makes no difference to a 16 yr old . I'm assuming you believe that a shorter hole will force the kids to pull a 5 wood. At 16 you're letting the big dog eat. Common sense isn't part of course strategy nor should it be. I believe kids should take chances and play with a little reckless abandon.

In someways I admire those kids for playing the course at it's most challenging. I make no apologizes for playing courses full length. ( Except EC or Marshes. 6600 yards is the sweet spot. )

This tee selection thing is blown way out of proportion. If we're talking about the more difficult courses, then sure, moving back does make things even tougher. but 98% of the tracks in this area are not difficult or long enough to add 30 minutes to a round. No offense to any of our fine course owners/designers

I agree with Curious George, ready golf is perfect. It flows so nicely and it allows slower players to play with quick players. I personally tend to be fast on the tee and fairways ( No practice swings, no Sergio regrips just aim and fire ) and slower on the greens. I like to read my chips and putts. I'll let sometime putt before me even if they're closer, it gives me an extra 30 seconds to look over my putt. Overall I play quickly and most people don't mind.

[Rusty]

I had an interesting experience at the Meadows last week that opened my eyes.
We were playing infront of some really long hitters, and it must have been agonizing for them to watch us play the par 4's and 5's. On narrow par 4's I usually play a 4 iron and then an approach to the green. Then I chip up to the green and putt 2 or 3 times and then move on.
These fellows on the other hand were driving right to the green! Once on a 340 yardish hole they rolled one up about 10 feet onto the green.

Imagine them behind someone that I think is slow!
I would have to think that once you start hitting in the 70's you have to learn tolerence.

We let them play through as soon as we could.

[Alljay]

I had an interesting experience this past weekend. I was out with two foursomes of friends to have a quick, best-ball round of golf before a wedding on Saturday. We'd arranged things with the course and we able to secure two tee-times beginning at 7:06.

We saw two groups tee off before us, a twosome and a threesome. The first group flew down the course and were quite far ahead after only a few holes. The threesome, however, played quite slowly and held up our first foursome, creating a traffic jam behind them by the third hole. For most of the day, a marshall follwed our second foursome and appeared to be prodding us along.

By the 14th hole, the original twosome could be seen finishing up the 18th, the threesome was teeing off on the 15th and our two foursomes were on the 14th. The marshall continued to follow us, despite the fact that we were playing very quickly (and reasonably well... 6 under-par at that point).

At no time did the marshall approach the threesome and ask them to speed up or let us through. Because the threesome was so far behind the group ahead of them, they were able to tee off and get ahead of our group before we could ask to pass them.

In the end, we were forced to skip two holes to pass them and managed to play 16 holes of best-ball golf in 4hrs and 16 minutes, despite teeing off at 7:06 am. Without the delays, we probably would have been able to get through 18 in just over 3.5hrs.

I suspect that the threesome played their round in about five hours (when we'd finished 18, they were just teeing off on 17). That was perhaps the worst example of marshalling that I've ever seen. The threesome held up golfers all morning, were not prodded to play nor to let others pass while a foursome in the traffic jam was continually hounded by the marshall.

Just thought that I'd vent a bit....

[Curious George]

I've seen stuff like that all the time. It's not surprising. I think Marshal's have a hard time conceiving that a 4-some could be faster than a 3-some. I had a similar experience this last weekend.

They often don't seem to know how to Marshal. Is there a course/instruction they have to take?

I think I'll start a new thread.

[Deep red]

Originally posted by Alljay
I had an interesting experience this past weekend. I was out with two foursomes of friends to have a quick, best-ball round of golf before a wedding on Saturday. We'd arranged things with the course and we able to secure two tee-times beginning at 7:06.

We saw two groups tee off before us, a twosome and a threesome. The first group flew down the course and were quite far ahead after only a few holes. The threesome, however, played quite slowly and held up our first foursome, creating a traffic jam behind them by the third hole. For most of the day, a marshall follwed our second foursome and appeared to be prodding us along.

By the 14th hole, the original twosome could be seen finishing up the 18th, the threesome was teeing off on the 15th and our two foursomes were on the 14th. The marshall continued to follow us, despite the fact that we were playing very quickly (and reasonably well... 6 under-par at that point).

At no time did the marshall approach the threesome and ask them to speed up or let us through. Because the threesome was so far behind the group ahead of them, they were able to tee off and get ahead of our group before we could ask to pass them.

In the end, we were forced to skip two holes to pass them and managed to play 16 holes of best-ball golf in 4hrs and 16 minutes, despite teeing off at 7:06 am. Without the delays, we probably would have been able to get through 18 in just over 3.5hrs.

I suspect that the threesome played their round in about five hours (when we'd finished 18, they were just teeing off on 17). That was perhaps the worst example of marshalling that I've ever seen. The threesome held up golfers all morning, were not prodded to play nor to let others pass while a foursome in the traffic jam was continually hounded by the marshall.

Just thought that I'd vent a bit....

Not to sound stupid...........but why didn't you say something to the Marshal???

[Alljay]

Originally posted by Deep red
Not to sound stupid...........but why didn't you say something to the Marshal???

I wanted to say something to the marshal, but he was always just out of range. I should have been more active in calling him over, but I was focussed on playing quickly.

I don't think that the marshal actually said anything to either of our foursomes. He just sat behind us in his cart following us along.

Oh well, its over and I feel better for having vented. Thanks for listening!