Nearest Point of Relief What Club to Use.

[BC MIST]

If taking relief from, say, an immovable obstruction, the rule says that I should use the club with which I would have played the shot had the condition from which I want relief, was not there.

If I am 50 yards from the green the club I would normally use would be a 35" lob wedge. But, I decide to take my relief by using my 47" driver instead, gaining a 12" advantage. Am I being a bad boy? Is a ruling required? If yes, what would it be?

[jvincent]

BC, it's not clear from your post.

Are you asking about which club you should use when determining whether relief is granted or which club is used when measuring?

[LobWedge]

That part of the rule refers to determining your nearest point of relief, not measuring the one clublength area in which the ball is dropped.

This pretty much nails it down.

http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/animations/index.html#

Scroll down and click on the Immovable Obstructions link.

[BC MIST]

BC, it's not clear from your post.

Are you asking about which club you should use when determining whether relief is granted or which club is used when measuring?

In looking through the Level 3 exam material, there is section where some terms used in the rules are specifically defined. They are:
MUST = Mandatory
SHOULD = Recommended ( Therefore, IMO, not mandatory)
MAY = Suggestive

In the definition of nearest point of relief, it says this: "Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke."
From this it seems that I may use my 35" wedge OR my 47" driver because there is no mandate for choosing the 35" wedge, which would be the club of choice. So, I can use the 47" club for finding the NPR AND use any club for finding the one club length quadrant. Or, I can use the 35" for the NPR and the 47" for the quadrant.

This latter statement contrasts with the decision pointed out to me in the other thread where if I chose a 35" club in finding the semicircle in which to drop the ball for relief from an unplayable lie, I MUST use the 35" club to determine if the ball has rolled more than two club lengths.

Personally, I think that one MUST use the appropriate club, ie., the 35"er, however, it seems that the rules allow me some choice. In practice, I have had both a Golf Quebec and an RCGA official have me do this in tournaments, but....

[Ginker]

You see it on the tour all the time.. When a player is taking relief he grabs the Driver everytime...

[The Saint]

The rule should be that you play the club in which you used to measure the NPR. So if you used your 35" LW to measure that is the club you use on your next shot.
Then there is no guess work as far as the rules go.

[Started2k3]

If taking relief from, say, an immovable obstruction, the rule says that I should use the club with which I would have played the shot had the condition from which I want relief, was not there.

If I am 50 yards from the green the club I would normally use would be a 35" lob wedge. But, I decide to take my relief by using my 47" driver instead, gaining a 12" advantage. Am I being a bad boy? Is a ruling required? If yes, what would it be?

You, and every PGA pro, are good enough players that if you pulled out your driver to measure but used your LW for the shot. If someone complained to the commitee. I am sure you could, in front of the commitee, use your driver to get you on the green from your dropped spot and then say "I would have put it in the hole if the obstruction was out of the way".

[Kiwi battler]

In a nutshell , for those not wanting to read thru the rulebook -

You "should" use the club youd use if the obstruction wasnt there .in this case the lob wedge ..... to measure the Nearest Point of Relief ....

Then you can use ANY club to measure the relief , be it 1 or 2 length depending on the rule you are droping under ..... 1 for free , 2 for penalty is how i remember
And use ANY club or ANY stroke to play the shot , sometimes this will allow you more relief "i.e. another free drop"

The ball can roll 2 more clublengths further from the point it hits the ground , and if it does roll more than 2 you must redrop , after the 2nd drop you must place the ball where it struck the ground on the 2nd drop

The club used to measure the initial 1 or 2 club relief is the club that MUST be used to determine if the ball has rolled more than 2 from where the ball hit the ground.

You can use the driver in the above senerio to measure NPR , BUT , that may result in you dropping in the wrong place , and facing penalties ....
At the same time , you might be lucky ....

[Kilroy]

Kiwi has it right.

To determine NPR you use the club you would use for the shot, which may be a Sand Wedge.

You THEN get a clublength relief from that point to determine your drop, where you can use your longest club in the bag.

[GarthM]

How do you figure Kiwi is right? You "should" use the club you would use for the shot, but you do not "have" to. How can you be penalized for dropping in the wrong place when the right place to measure from was picked within the rules? Also there is no determining your drop, you determine your NPR. From there you use a club (your choice again) to define the area in which you may drop: 1 or 2 club lengths.

You can use the driver in the above senerio to measure NPR , BUT , that may result in you dropping in the wrong place , and facing penalties ....
At the same time , you might be lucky ....

Under what circumstances would you drop in the wrong place? I am curious to know.

Kiwi has it right.

To determine NPR you use the club you would use for the shot, which may be a Sand Wedge.

You THEN get a clublength relief from that point to determine your drop, where you can use your longest club in the bag.

[Kiwi battler]

If we are looking for a NPR , there is generally only 1 ....if there's more , then YOU choose

We find the NPR using the club , stance and stroke that we would use if the obstruction wasnt there ........sometimes the NPR is in bushes ....or on a path or casual water
sometimes we get more drops , when we get a 2nd drop and NPR for that puts us back where we started we then link both obstructions together finding a new NPR for both

If you use your driver to find NPR , when youd actually use your wedge for that shot your NPR is now several inches further than it should , when you take your 1 clublength relief past this "false" NPR and drop , its possible the drop would be at a place where youd drop if youd done it by the book
BUT its more than likely going to be outside the NPR + 1clublength

that make sense ?

[GarthM]

Right I forgot to move to the other side of the obstruction (right side, back facing the obstruction) where the club would make a difference. When facing the obstruction it would not make much difference though. My bad....

[BC MIST]

Kiwi has it right.

To determine NPR you use the club you would use for the shot, which may be a Sand Wedge.

You THEN get a clublength relief from that point to determine your drop, where you can use your longest club in the bag.

While your description of the process for dropping is what we all do and makes perfect sense, it seems that most are still missing my point. The "Book" says I SHOULD use the appropriate club. SHOULD does NOT mean MUST.

So I ask my question again. What if I don't use the wedge? Am I breaking the rule? If yes, what is the specific wording of the rule that confirms this? If the book said MUST, there's the proof. But, if no, what wording allows me to use a different club? My proof is the use of the word SHOULD, which in my rules exam package that came from the RCGA, means "Recommended," not mandatory.

I am being a nitpicker, I know, but the exam will nitpick.

[GarthM]

One would assume (dangerous I know) that the use of the word "SHOULD" implies some sort of condition under which you would be in violation of a rule if you don't. But as you have indicated, there does not appear to be any indication of what those conditions would be, and what rule would be broken. Interesting indeed.

Out of curiosity what were you told by the RCGA/QGA rules officials.

While your description of the process for dropping is what we all do and makes perfect sense, it seems that most are still missing my point. The "Book" says I SHOULD use the appropriate club. SHOULD does NOT mean MUST.

So I ask my question again. What if I don't use the wedge? Am I breaking the rule? If yes, what is the specific wording of the rule that confirms this? If the book said MUST, there's the proof. But, if no, what wording allows me to use a different club? My proof is the use of the word SHOULD, which in my rules exam package that came from the RCGA, means "Recommended," not mandatory.

I am being a nitpicker, I know, but the exam will nitpick.

[BC MIST]

One would assume (dangerous I know) that the use of the word "SHOULD" implies some sort of condition under which you would be in violation of a rule if you don't. But as you have indicated, there does not appear to be any indication of what those conditions would be, and what rule would be broken. Interesting indeed.

Out of curiosity what were you told by the RCGA/QGA rules officials.

After applying to take the Level 3 exam we get a huge rules information package that we should study in preparation for the course and exam which tales place in early May in Montreal, so there is no ruling at this time. At the beginning of the package it defines should, may and must.

Decision 24-2b/1 says asks "May I use any club...." and the answer is "No."

But further in the answer it says, "... it is recommended that the player use the club.... that he would have used had the obstruction... not been there. This is the CONTRADICTION that is baffling to me. If they want and mean MUST, then say so. I will still use the appropriate club, but, to me, the wording leaves this open to "misinterpretation."

[GarthM]

But Decision 24-2b/4 reads:

24-2b/4 Club Used to Determine “Nearest Point of Relief” Not Used for Next Stroke


Q. The Note to the Definition of “Nearest Point of Relief” states: “In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address, direction of play and swing for such stroke.” If the subsequent lie of the ball were such that it was expedient for the player to play his next stroke with some other club, may the player use the other club?

A. Yes.

Does this not answer the question?

[BC MIST]

But Decision 24-2b/4 reads:

24-2b/4 Club Used to Determine “Nearest Point of Relief” Not Used for Next Stroke


Q. The Note to the Definition of “Nearest Point of Relief” states: “In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address, direction of play and swing for such stroke.” If the subsequent lie of the ball were such that it was expedient for the player to play his next stroke with some other club, may the player use the other club?

A. Yes.

Does this not answer the question?

Not mine. This covers the instance where, for example, my ball may roll from a flat lie to a downhill lie, or from having a clear shot to one where trees may now be partially in the way, or rolling behind a small bush and so on, necessitating my playing a different kind of shot, than if my ball were to land on the actual NPR where the wedge would be the club of choice.

[Kiwi battler]

My thinking , if your 30yards from the green , with a bunker in your line , and you say youd use driver for that shot , then proceed to determine NPR with the driver
Well in matchplay id be claiming the hole

In stroke id be asking some questions

I think it says "should" because often you will still drop withen the area you should be dropping

It will often come down to honesty , do you always penalise yourself if your ball moves 1/4 inch when you address the ball in deep rough way way in the bushes when nobody else will ever see ?

Often you will be the only person knowing what club youd use from point X ......just like you will be the only person knowing that you would always hook a ball around said tree but for the sprinkler head your foot would touch if you sliced instead

[BC MIST]

My thinking , if your 30yards from the green , with a bunker in your line , and you say youd use driver for that shot , then proceed to determine NPR with the driver
Well in matchplay id be claiming the hole

Maybe I want to roll the ball through the bunker onto the green, using the driver.
You can only make a claim if you say so, before teeing off on the next hole, why you want it and that you want a ruling.

It will often come down to honesty , do you always penalise yourself if your ball moves 1/4 inch when you address the ball in deep rough way way in the bushes when nobody else will ever see ?

Yes.

With a little help from Wendy at the Leith Society, here is the final answer. If the shot required is with my 35" lob wedge, my NPR must be determined either with or as though I was using the actual club to mark the NPR, but I don't have to use the actual club. The point just has to be within that range.

It is just like the unplayable ball relief method where I must drop the ball within two club lengths of the unplayable point. I do NOT have to mark the semicircular area with tees. I just have to be sure that I drop the ball within the semicircular area as though I did use tees to mark it. If my FC or opponent questions my drop, then it makes sense to have the tees there as proof that the ball is being dropped in the right spot. But I don't HAVE to use them.

Duh!! Common sense, eh?

[Kilroy]

Great stuff BC!

[Kiwi battler]

do i hear an echo