Men Only - PGA Tour Policy Board

[mpare]

The Golf Channel suggested that the Tour's policy board will be considering a men only clause for the PGA Tour. Assuming that this is true, I trust that good sense will prevail and that they will relegate this discussion to the 2 minutes or less that it deserves. The Tour should be a forum for the best players in the world regardless of their sex. It took the Tour long enough to remove the prohibition against blacks being eligible to play. One would hope that they don't take a step backwards on this issue. Besides, it's in their economic self-interest to leave the present policy in place. The Colonial tournament this week has seen an unprecedented increase in press coverage and attendance. In this case, money should talk and prejudice (whatever its guise) should walk.

[em69]

Good timing to pull this stunt. Next thing you'll here them say "oh it's something we've been planning on doing for many years".

What a load of crap.

[LBH]

Gimme a break! If that's the type of people running the PGA, then we going to run into the same problems and non-sense that Augusta had (and still has) about their male-only membership.

What's next? A clause to make sure that everybody is between 6'2" and 6'5", can benchpress 300 lbs and drives at least 300 yds?

Come on! The PGA board of directors needs to smell the coffee and realize there's no Men in PGA.

[golfdoc]

Let's be fair here. If the PGA can't say men only, then the LPGA needs to lose the ladies part and just be another tour.

Yes the PGA is for the best players oin the world. I believe Annika proved that she can't compete on the PGA. She is by far the best female golfer, and the best female golfer doesn't cut it on the men's tour.

And Augusta is a totally different issue. The fact is, there are two distinctions in the world when it comes to people. MAN and WOMAN. That is it. Colour, race or religion are not ways to classify people. You are a man or a woman and that's it. There is nothing wrong with a group wanting to be women only.

[spidey]

golfdoc sez:
Let's be fair here.

You mean unfair. There's no ladies' restriction on auto racing. There's no men's racing and women's racing. Same with horseracing. The NHL doesn't have a rule about excluding women. Neither does the European league where Haley Wickenheiser (sp?) played last year.

It's simple. The best is the best. And it's not obvious that Annika can't play with the men. On the contrary. She did not get blown out. Phil Mickelson misses cuts. So does Tiger Woods (although it's been a long time). If they miss a cut, does that mean that they have to re-qualify to get on the tour? Of course not.

Her stats were above average, certainly for fairways, greens, pars and bogeys. She could probably play the PGA tour if she wanted to. However, it's highly unlikely since she makes far more money playing on the ladies' tour.

Making the PGA tour a 'men's tour' is a waste of administration. There's only the remotest chance that any women are going to play the men's tour for a living. And if they're good enough to play the men's tour for a living, then they deserve the opportunity to do it.

Personally, I'd much rather see a woman who can maintain a position at 100th on the money list than to see a man struggle to stay 175th on the money list. In my view, she's not taking a spot. If the man is good enough, he'll earn the spot. Just as Mickelson said, "I hope 19th or better". If you're not good enough to beat her on the course, you don't have the right to exclude her from competing.

The LPGA is a completely different animal. It's a tour for women who mainly can't make it on the PGA tour. What's the point in having a man play in a women's event? It certainly won't improve the draw. And there won't be many people who will be impressed with a man beating a woman. If men can't make it on the PGA tour, then there's the European, Australian and Japan PGA tours. If they're not good enough for that, then there's the Challenge tour and the Nationwide tour and the Canadian tour. If they're not good enough for that, then they need to rethink their career choices before trying out for the LPGA.

[golfdoc]

Annika is not trying to win. She is trying to survive. She can't go at pins and be risky. She will never contend in a PGA event.

She is ahead of a lot of golfers this week. That is because they are trying to win. They know they need at least -10 to win the tournament. They have to bust drives 300+ and throw wedges in at the flags. Otherwise they can't WIN. They could all hit 3 iron off every tee, knock irons at the middle of the greens and take their 2 putts. They would never win.

There will always be guys who don't shoot low scores, but they are trying to go low.

Annika is trying to shoot par and survive. Every one in these events should be trying to win. Playing safe all day for four rounds will never win a tournament.

Annika is terrible out of the bunkers. probably because she is hardly in them. That's because she aims at the middle of the greens. On the LPGA, where she admits the pins are a lot easier, and the greens are slower, you can make more putts from the middle of the green.

Yes she played well. Stats were great. BIG deal. It was boring and she can't compete on the PGA. Compete means "having a chance to win" not just surviving.

[spidey]

golfdoc sez...
Annika is trying to shoot par and survive. Every one in these events should be trying to win. Playing safe all day for four rounds will never win a tournament.

Really? You have a very selective memory. Don't you remember all the controversies about tour players just playing for the cut, not trying to win, not practicing enough. Remember the Bruce Lietzke controversy?

For the first two days, all the players are playing to make the cut. You can ask Jack and Arnie if you like, but I bet you'll get the same story from them. The only players that are playing for the win are the ones in top form. The ones whose scoring averages are below 70.5. All the rest of them are playing to get in on the weekend and make the cut.

If they're smart, they're going to play their games. They're not shooting for every pin every day. Even Tiger Woods doesn't shoot for every pin every day. If they're smart, they'll take their chances where they have opportunities and they'll play conservative where their games are not suited to the shots. That's exactly what Annika is doing. But apparently it's not OK for Annika to do what the rest of them are doing... playing to her strengths.

You cannot tell me that a guy who is at 76 and possibly as much as 6 or 7 strokes off the cut is playing to win. Well, you can if you want, but don't expect us to bite. He's obviously just trying to get back to making the cut.

Loren Roberts doesn't hit it any further than Annika. He can't bust 300 yard drives. In fact there's only a handful of them on tour that can consistently hit it over 300 yards. Loren Roberts has to make putts.

Also, Annika is playing under media and fan attention and pressure that ALL the guys in this tournament NEVER have to play under. Tiger is the only guy who has to handle that kind of pressure on the PGA tour. It's not exactly a surprise that her putting isn't stellar.

Truthfully, if I was a journeyman on the PGA tour, I'd be playing to make the cut every week. I think Golf Magazine even did an article on it a few years ago. Most of the guys from 100th on down spend every day planning on how to make the next cut.

And of course it's going to be boring to you. You have decided that it's inappropriate, and no matter whether there are people lined up 10 and 20 deep to watch her play, you won't admit that it's not boring. You're not giving her much of a chance. You're probably one of the people who had written off Mike Weir after his bad year last year, and you won't likely be patient enough to see how anybody you dislike does in the long haul.

What was your prediction of her score yesterday? Can you be honest?

[golfdoc]

She finished 1 shot better than I thought she would. I figure today she will be +3 on her round.

If she is honestly trying to make the cut, she will have to take risks today. I believe that if she takes risks, she will end up 3,4 or 5 over today. If she plays safe again, she will have a similar score. That won't make the cut.

Obviously players don't go at every pin every day. They take enough risks to make the cut and get in a position to compete. I don't think she has the game to make the cut. Plain and simple.

Annika is not picking her spots. If she is, she chose limited spots. She doesn't have enough spots to make the cut.

The guys who are 6 or 7 shots back are obviously trying to make the cut by the end of day2. On day3 they are trying to get close to the lead and day4 make a charge.

I find her boring. That is my opinion. I would not want to watch Tiger hit 2irons all day off the tees and aim at the middle of 18 greens and take his 2 putts. That would be boring.

[donh]

Well, +1 for 18 of the toughest holes that she has probably seen. Is she a machine? Yup. But that's a compliment. Period. She hit the ball down the middle yesterday and from what I saw got some bad breaks (balls that didn't stop on the greens).

Boring? Maybe. But effective! I have to agree that watching Jack Nicklaus dig himself out of a hole (sometimes literally) is more interesting than seeing her hit 275 yds "down the middle".

She's playing under extreme conditions. Make the cut? I certainly hope so! Too bad about her putting that let's her down, but that's to be expected. She's not the best putter on the LPGA -- maybe her and Rosie Jones should play a two-person combo next time (Rosie is leading the putting stats as of May 12).

Good Luck Annika!

[mr shank]

Originally posted by golfdoc
Annika is not trying to win. She is trying to survive. She can't go at pins and be risky. She will never contend in a PGA event.

She is ahead of a lot of golfers this week. That is because they are trying to win. They know they need at least -10 to win the tournament. They have to bust drives 300+ and throw wedges in at the flags. Otherwise they can't WIN. They could all hit 3 iron off every tee, knock irons at the middle of the greens and take their 2 putts. They would never win.

There will always be guys who don't shoot low scores, but they are trying to go low.

Annika is trying to shoot par and survive. Every one in these events should be trying to win. Playing safe all day for four rounds will never win a tournament.

Yes she played well. Stats were great. BIG deal. It was boring and she can't compete on the PGA. Compete means "having a chance to win" not just surviving.

All excellent points - I'm glad someone can actually be rational & logical about this rather than blindly jumping on the Annika bandwagon.

Annika can never win on the PGA, so it is a waste of a spot for her to be there. Even she admitted she struck the ball beautifully under perfect scoring conditions yesterday & was one over. Yes she tied one of her playing partners & beat the others, but hte difference these guys might actually win a tournament on the PGA & Annika never will.

If you want to win on the PGA tour you need to fire at some flags & she knows full well she can't do that when her approach shot is 190 yards +.

She doesn't have a prayer of making the cut in this tournament, or any other on the PGA.

[Andru]

Originally posted by donh
Well, +1 for 18 of the toughest holes that she has probably seen. Is she a machine? Yup. But that's a compliment. Period. She hit the ball down the middle yesterday and from what I saw got some bad breaks (balls that didn't stop on the greens).

The balls didn't stop because she's hitting longer clubs into greens. That would be her lack of distance.

Annika is not competing for making cuts the taht matter. I was dissapointed to see her play so poorly today. Everyone has a bead round a few fiys did. I'd still take Dean Wilson over Annika 9 out ofr 10 times.

[em69]

Originally posted by mr shank
Annika can never win on the PGA, so it is a waste of a spot for her to be there.

Waste of a spot??? For who? Do you realize how many guys play on the tour that also could never win a PGA event? Tons of them, so is it a waste of spot for them too? Arnie played many tournamnents on the PGA Tour into his late 60's and he had no chance of winning. Was that a waste of a spot?

I could name 100 guys on Tour that have no chance of winning.

Your just scared of change.

[Deep red]

Great arguments on both sides.

Personally I found myself glued to the tub for both of her rounds and cheering right along with the fans. She has a great energy about her and really was a great representative for the LPGA.

As for her game...well I too agree she would be hard struck to ever win a tournament especially one where the top players attend. This statement is also true for about 80 percent of the Men playing on the tour. So I really don't see the big problem. I truly believe if she came out to say 5 or 6 events and became more accustom to the way the game is played ( I mean the length and pins placements) on the PGA she would definitely score better than this past week. You could see the obvious skill ant talent she possesses. She was a machine but one with nerves. Everyone kept dwelling on the fact that she could not hit it long, but so what. If you keep in the fairways like she does it was shown and has been shown by many male players that this great game is more than just a bashing contest.

To me it was mental fatigue and her lack of putting that was her demise this time around. Both can be fixed. It would be a shame if she decides never to play again in a PGA event. She brought out many new fans and gave the sport itself a new, muchly needed energy and personality rarely seen unless Sergio is on.

[Clutch]

I could name 100 guys on Tour that have no chance of winning.

em69, When it comes to participating in a knowledgable discussion I suggest you should just sit it out. I've read your post/replies and I haven't found anything you say to be anything more than unsubstantiated BS. Your contribution would be much more appreciated in the Woman's Auxilary, (in my opion).

[Kilroy]

Clutch:
Please be more respectful. Discuss the issues without the insults. Your post does not address the issue at all.

[em69]

Good one Clutch . However, it is not an insult to me but rather a reflection on your personality. It's too bad people behave the way you do.

Why don't you go look at the World Golf Rankings and tell me how many of them have won on Tour.

[Clutch]

Sorry Dan if it came across as an insult.

I did not intend to insult him/her. It's just my observation and my opinion, which I thought I was entitled to. There are several occurances of discussions that go off topic on this site, so I didn't see the harm. I'll be more respectful of the...hmmmm... imprudent, and keep to the topic next time.

It's a good thing for men's golf that Annika didn't make the cut. Now we can get back to watching men play golf and not have women tainting the waters. Hopefully we don't go through this again, or if we do, it won't be for at least another 60 years.

I'm in favour of having a men's tour and a woman's tour. I do watch both, but this way I have a choice of what gender I want to watch.

[el tigre]

Annika was just paving the way.

As discussed elsewhere on this forum, Sue Whaley has already qualified for the Greater Hartford Open later this year. She is a local club pro and not an LPGA Tour player, so it will be even tougher for her to compete. But she'll be there nonetheless.

And then there is Michelle Wie. She will apparently be playing in a Canadian Tour event and a Nationwide Tour event this year, and IMHO it will only be a matter of time before she tries out the PGA. I believe the "men only" clause is an attempt by some at the PGA to launch a pre-emptive strike against this.

[Clutch]

Yes I know I'm dreaming if I ever think that there will be a men's only tour. I also hope that the women golfers (with the help of Annika) realize that they are out matched on the PGA tour and decide to stick to their own tour. However publicity=$, and when corporate sponsors and tv networks see a way to cash in, they will, and that means giving expemptions to whomever will make them money. The intent of having the best players is undermined and becomes more of a specticle. Hard work and the talent to qualify appears to be over looked. I personally don't think there should be any exemptions. Let the best qualify!

[mr shank]

I think we should all be glad the day when everybody has to qualify or have some sort of PGA criteria to get an exemption.
I want to see the best golfers in the world on the PGA tour & if some of them happen to be women so be it.
All I wish is that the rules for entry/qualification into a tournament are applied equally to all players.

However, for those of you who dream of a tour that sports numerous women are doing just that - dreaming!
As the women get better so do the men, and since men generally are stronger and have better hand/eye coordination they will always dominate the tour, which is okay because someone needs to stay home & cook the meatloaf.

[Kilroy]

PGA criteria to get an exemption

In which case they would "qualify". So what is the point of having an "exemption"? The point of an exemption is to give a a spot to the sponsor's choice of NONqualifiers. You cannot have it both ways.
Exemptions were fine until someone gave one to a girl.

[mpare]

The sponsors will always have the right to allow a minimal number of players into their tournaments on conditions that they themselves deem appropriate. Does anyone seriously think that their right will be limited to anteing up millions of dollars only to bask in the glory of male tour players? I doubt it. It's not the exemptions per se that causes such a visceral response to any thought of inviting a woman to play, it's that some men find their presence emasculating. And this is especially so when that invitee could actually play well enough to beat a number of the boys on the tour and all of us who use this forum. As for me, I can't wait for Michelle Wie to come on tour as a qualified PGA Tour player to shake things up. In the meantime, sponsors would be economically naive not to invite her to their tournament.

[faldo]

I see that Mr. Nicklaus has given a Sponsor's Exemption to the Memorial for this week to Craig Stadler.
Doesn't Jack realize that Brett Hull has been sitting by the phone for the last ten days????

Actually, there's only 105 golfers in the field. He could have invited all the Wings, Leafs & Sens.........

[LionsRoar]

On one hand we have our engrained sense of equity and fairness. Our own firm beliefs that we are not sexist, definitely not racist and incorrigeably politically correct, but.... We stray.

Yes we stray, especially when we're faced with situations that change our beloved sport and our very way of life. I'll admit it. I hate that I'll never be able to play on the LPGA, even if I were good enough, which I am not. But, it's not just me, all men are denied access to large purses of money available only to be won by females. This is not a sexist statement, rather a fact.

Why do I hate the exclusionary policy of the LPGA... because, I have to share the tours that I could compete in with women. All of the tours mentioned above in a previous post are subject to the same inclusion of women that has beset the PGA. This is where I stray, and yes, to all of us who are feeling this way, it is sexist. Not wanting to share a tour because of gender, is a sexist attitude. But, then again, so is the LPGA in its very nature. I cannot help the way I feel about this. It angers me that I cannot, that I choose to want to exclude simply because I have been excluded.

But I am willing and open minded enough to think that the current landscape can change.

I agree that the PGA is the place for the best golfer's in the world, or at least the best golfer's who want a chance to make a lot of money. Annika, undoubtedly through sponsorship could do that. Would she win? I don't know, would she dominate, definitely not. But that isn't the point, the point is should she be there, and my feeling is, if she qualifies like everyone else then she should be there. Exemptions be damned, they should only be able to go to people who currently hold or have held a PGA tour card or a legitimate amateur, male or female, who is able to shoot a qualifying score on a qualifying course.

Will this change the fact that no man will ever be allowed to play the LPGA, no it won't. Could a system be set up to tier golf tours where most of the women on the LPGA would be able to fit into a tour and compete head to head with men on even footing, perhaps... but would it make for good television, would sponsors want to get involved? The answer sadly is no. The LPGA is here to stay, and frankly, women who want to play professional golf need it.

We the golfing community need to move on from this, we need to be magnanimous in our efforts to embrace this change. Should the exemption rules be changed, YES, should women be excluded simply because of their gender, NO. Just because men are excluded because of their gender, doesn't mean the "men's tours" cannot take the higher road and change.

Just my fifty cents.