Is this Cheating?

[Terry Clarke]

It must have been the word "great" that threw me. Maybe I went out on a limb,
but someone known as a "great" match player at a local club cannot be losing
anywhere near his fair share of matches.

You make it sound like cutting a few strokes off ones score is easy to do. Like
turning on and off a light switch. If it is so easy for him to cut a few strokes
off when he feels like it then maybe his handicap shouldn't be so high. Doesn't
that make any sense to you?

Do I hear the the distant sound of bags being filled with sand?

[ironmaster15213]

Let me tell you a story......about 8 or so years ago I joined a League that one of my fellow workers belonged to. It was a nice league that played on a very good nine holes after work. The trouble is that they didn't have any room for me in the first flight though I averaged about 39 for nine holes back then. So I gladly got my foot in the door by playing in the 4th flight. Well I was giving strokes out of the wazzoo and was happy to give them, Cause at least I was able to play. After the first 5 weeks of compitition I didn't have one point even though I was constantly between 37 and 41. What people forget is there's a big lift that a high handicap golfer will get if he plays with a much better golfer, especially if the better golfer is very friendly and helps build his ego after each good shot the higher handicap player has.I would play a guy who shot 62 the week before and then shoot 51 against me Was he sandbagging??? I think not. All I think is Sphere hunter was a very nice guy to his competition and the high average golfer got relaxed and maybe concentrated a little harder to try to impress his compitition. Thus S.H. lost while he played a very nice round himself. The ugly truth is a low handicap golfer will probably have to play some small head games to beat a high handicap golfer at match play. I would rather lose and have an enjoyable round with somebody that will say nothing but nice things about you and that round for months to come. But that's just me, I'm fiercely competitive but it doesn't mean you have to be unfriendly with your compitition.

[LobWedge]

Following is what an earlier guy posted:

"Two basic premises underlie the RCGA Handicap System, namely that each
player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless
of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable
round for peer review. The player and the player’s Handicap Committee have
joint responsibility for adhering to these premises."

Is that not what it reads???????

I was the one who posted that.

If by laying up with an iron on a par 4 I have very little chance of making a birdie because I can't hit the green in two, then laying up does not mean I am trying to make my best score.

It means I am limiting my worst score. The two concepts are not equivalent.

Actually that was my post. It's a direct quote from Section 1-1 of the RCGA Handicap Manual.

I still think that there's a fundamental problem if a golfer can represent himself by establishing a handicap using a particular method of play, and then using that handicap as a cushion during competition by completely misrepresenting the style of play that gave him that index in the first place in order to take advantage of an opponent. The difference between regular and tournament scores should bear that out, providing that all the tournament scores are being recorded, and the handicap committee is keeping an eye on things.

If you're being irresponsible with your driver off the tee and, posting inflated scores as a result, you are not trying to make the best score you can. Which is exactly what the Handicap Manual requires.

[LobWedge]

Let me tell you a story......about 8 or so years ago I joined a League that one of my fellow workers belonged to. It was a nice league that played on a very good nine holes after work. The trouble is that they didn't have any room for me in the first flight though I averaged about 39 for nine holes back then. So I gladly got my foot in the door by playing in the 4th flight. Well I was giving strokes out of the wazzoo and was happy to give them, Cause at least I was able to play. After the first 5 weeks of compitition I didn't have one point even though I was constantly between 37 and 41. What people forget is there's a big lift that a high handicap golfer will get if he plays with a much better golfer, especially if the better golfer is very friendly and helps build his ego after each good shot the higher handicap player has.I would play a guy who shot 62 the week before and then shoot 51 against me Was he sandbagging??? I think not. All I think is Sphere hunter was a very nice guy to his competition and the high average golfer got relaxed and maybe concentrated a little harder to try to impress his compitition. Thus S.H. lost while he played a very nice round himself. The ugly truth is a low handicap golfer will probably have to play some small head games to beat a high handicap golfer at match play. I would rather lose and have an enjoyable round with somebody that will say nothing but nice things about you and that round for months to come. But that's just me, I'm fiercely competitive but it doesn't mean you have to be unfriendly with your compitition.

Yes, but the crux of the arguement is the rounds shot during non-competitve play used to establish the player's handicap in the first place.

[Terry Clarke]

Lobwedge,

You can express yourself at lot more clearly than I can, I agree with you 100%.

[ironmaster15213]

Yes, but the crux of the argument is the rounds shot during non-competitive play used to establish the player's handicap in the first place.

........Without the persons handicap card to look at his scores including all those tournament scores really all we have is hearsay and circumstantial evidence, Is that really what we want to do, to beat up on a guy who cannot defend himself? If he truly was a cheater (sandbagger) wouldn't it be a lot easier to not turn in your good scores and exaggerate by adding a few strokes on your bad scores? Why play that bad that your fellow golfers would bring your play up to officials?

[BC MIST]

Golf is a game of fair play and sportsmanship.

It is very easy to stay within the rules and still be unethical.

Do you remember when Tiger was snookered behind a huge boulder and he had
the spectators move the huge boulder for him?

Within the rules? Yes. Unethical?.......Definitely.

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, however, should what we are discussing not be based on facts, instead of opinions?

Your Tiger example above is a good example.
-Was the boulder an "moveable" obstruction as defined in "The Rules of Golf?" YES. -Was the boulder moved? YES.
-Did Tiger break a rule? NO. So what is the problem?

The reason you object to what happened is because spectators moved the boulder for him. In your mind, to be ethical, Tiger or his caddie, should move the rock, not outside agencies. IF THIS IS TRUE, then you have expressed an opinion that it is unethical. But it cannot be unethical unless he broke a rule. which he did not. It was just his good fortune that he had some help. When you play the PGA Tour, you may get some help, too.

There is no evidence that the 21 handicapper deliberately kept his factor higher because of his playing the driver. NONE. Therefore, he was playing by the rules and was ethical. Subsequently, when he used shorter clubs, which is his right, he was still playing by the rules, still trying to play his best, and did. Is this ethical? YES. Was he exhibiting fair play by doing this? ABSOLUTELY. Was he being a good sport? YES.

There is no evidence that he did anything wrong and yet you vilify him and the rest of us for knowing that he did nothing wrong. If we knew that he was wrong and said that it was OK, then you would be justified in calling him and the rest of us unethical or anything else. But he was not and we did not.

To prove any of your points valid, what hard, concrete, indisputable, 100% correct evidence do you have from post 1, that he is a cheater? That's what I thought? Time to see the light, man.

[Sphere Hunter]

This is quite the thread.

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that some of you can't see how this appears to be a little unethical. I guess there have to be degrees of ethics and this is a low degree but it doesn't "feel" right to me.

Mr. 21 is not intentional inflating his handicap and I guess intent is the most important thing here. Is he breaking the rules, I don't think so. Did I feel like it was a fair match, no way. The fact remains that he may have used his driver all day and still beat me and it may have just been his day to have a great round. Since he has had much success in net match play I have to wonder whether this is true or not.

I must say that the fact that a golfer hasn't broker a rule of golf, does not, in my mind, mean you are playing in an ethical way. Lots of grey area here.

If you had a injured ankle and continued to play golf, as best you could, and your handicap rose by 5 strokes over a couple on months. Then, having finally recovered, played a net match and you cream the guy by playing your normal pre-injury game, at the very least, I would be appologizing for the unfortunately timing of the match. If I didn't, and although no rule was broken, I would think it would be a little unethical.

I think the most telling thing I have read here is the comment about how handicaps aren't meant to level the playing field, that they're just meant to make it close. A higher handicap will always have the advantage, by the numbers, in a net match because they have the ability to lower their score more easily than a lower handicaper on a good day. I think that's a fair representation.

Just watch out when they always do it on game day!

[LobWedge]

Your Tiger example above is a good example.
-Was the boulder an "moveable" obstruction as defined in "The Rules of Golf?" YES. -Was the boulder moved? YES.
-Did Tiger break a rule? NO. So what is the problem?

Then why did they change the rule? (Rhetorical question. I know why...)

[TourIQ]

Let me tell you a story.......

Let me tell a story about 3 years ago.

My son was criticized as a Junior for never playing Men's Matchplay [handicapped] tournament, and they would NEVER allow him to play up from Junior to the Men's Club Championship. They did however allow it the following year when he was no longer a Junior member. He has won our Men's Low Gross Club Championship now for 5 out of 5 consecutive years.

Ok, so he decided 3 years ago to enter the Men's Handicap Matchplay. The 2nd game he goes up against the Board member who is a great guy and one who has the utmost integrity. My son has to give him 28 strokes. You know how hard it is to win after posting a guy 28 strokes, heck you cannot afford to have 1 bad hole. Anyway they are tied after 18, then go to play an extra hole. The Board member gets so nervous he pumps 2 balls OB into the corn field and then it's an easy par to win the match and advance.

He moves on to the semi's and comes up against the club sandbagger. This guy claims a handicap in the mid teens [14] and almost always breaks '80'. I can't remember his name so let me call him Jeff. Jeff shoots a 78 - 14 hcp = 64 Net. The 53-year course record is only 65. My son loses by ~4 but shoots a 64 for a course record the following year. He looks at the computer handicap software and Jeff plays about 3 to 4 times a week and hasn't entered a score in over a month. I guess it was Jeff's way of maintaining his inflated 14 hcp. Duane never called him on cheating since it meant virtually nothing to win, and said it was his 1st and last handicap match. He will now only play Low Gross events.

[jonf]

I must say that the fact that a golfer hasn't broker a rule of golf, does not, in my mind, mean you are playing in an ethical way. Lots of grey area here.

I have to disagree here, purely because golf is about the most regulated sport I can possibly imagine. No sport has the degree of detail and precision in its rules. If there is no rule forbidding something in golf, then it is legal. If they wanted to prevent it, they would put in a rule to stop it. Furthermore, no sport is so concerned with fair play as golf with. The rulebook is designed as much to protect the ethics of fair play as it is anything else. With that in mind, I can't see how anything that doesn't contravene the rules could be seen as unethical.

[Kilroy]

He looks at the computer handicap software and Jeff plays about 3 to 4 times a week and hasn't entered a score in over a month. I guess it was Jeff's way of maintaining his inflated 14 hcp. Duane never called him on cheating

Obviously he should have taken that one to the handicapping comittee. THAT's a sandbager.

[Big Johnny69]

This is quite the thread.

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that some of you can't see how this appears to be a little unethical. I guess there have to be degrees of ethics and this is a low degree but it doesn't "feel" right to me.

Mr. 21 is not intentional inflating his handicap and I guess intent is the most important thing here. Is he breaking the rules, I don't think so. Did I feel like it was a fair match, no way. The fact remains that he may have used his driver all day and still beat me and it may have just been his day to have a great round. Since he has had much success in net match play I have to wonder whether this is true or not.

I must say that the fact that a golfer hasn't broker a rule of golf, does not, in my mind, mean you are playing in an ethical way. Lots of grey area here.

If you had a injured ankle and continued to play golf, as best you could, and your handicap rose by 5 strokes over a couple on months. Then, having finally recovered, played a net match and you cream the guy by playing your normal pre-injury game, at the very least, I would be appologizing for the unfortunately timing of the match. If I didn't, and although no rule was broken, I would think it would be a little unethical.

I think the most telling thing I have read here is the comment about how handicaps aren't meant to level the playing field, that they're just meant to make it close. A higher handicap will always have the advantage, by the numbers, in a net match because they have the ability to lower their score more easily than a lower handicaper on a good day. I think that's a fair representation.

Just watch out when they always do it on game day!

Once again, I have to agree with Sphere Hunter, I don't see how some of you can't see there is something wrong with what this guy is doing. Is he cheating, no, but he is manipulating the system.

And in response to whoever said perhaps the player is still shooting near his cap, but SH said he was at one point under par in his match and still losing. To me that doesn't sound like Mr 21 Cap was shooting near his cap, sounds like he was shooting much better than his "regular" game.

[Kilroy]

One must base their judgment on the evidence, not speculation or "should be" or "probably is" or "probably isn't".

If I were on the handicap committee with this situation as presented I'd be unable to rule against Mr 21.

"The weakest part of his game (driving) was used to establish his cap, then he smartly identified the weakness and avoided it during the match."

1. He met the requirements of the handicapping by entering all his scores.
2. "No this guy does not intentionally hit it into trouble. He is just not a good driver of the golf ball." Therefore he is not manipulating his scores.
3. He didn't cheat during the match, he played with a different strategy than usual, but that isn't cheating.

I really don't understand how you'd expect anyone to rule against Mr 21. I see no evidence of sandbagging whatsoever.

[Big Johnny69]

Obviously he believes he scores his best (best chance at winning the match) by using irons only. So during his non-competitive rounds he should be using irons only (if he is trying to make the best possible score as stipulated by handicap manual). Plain and simple. He knows he's not a good driver of the golf ball, hence he didn't hit it during his match (and appears to be the case in other matches as well). Against the rules, no, unethical, I believe so. This is where I don't understand where people can't see this. Its not like its a one time thing. This guy believes he's a good match play golfer based on his results. But it might have more to do with how he's manipulating the system. But to some winning is everything.

[jvincent]

he scores his best (best chance at winning the match)

I'll say it again, these are different things.

The handicap system says you should try and make your best score on each hole. It does not say you should play in such a way that you will win every match.

[Kilroy]

Exactly. You don't need to play for your best score on every hole to win in match play.

When you get a stroke per hole, play for bogey to tie and go for pars only when your opponent gets into trouble. Going for birdies will mean pushing it and could result in tripples. It's risky and not nessesary in this match.

On a 450 yard par 4, three shots with a 7 iron and 2 putts = bogie and no blood.

His strategy may be quite different when playing another 21.

[Big Johnny69]

OK, I'll re-word my opinion:

If this guy believes he plays his best (regardless of stroke or match play) with irons only, I believe he should be playing irons only in his non-competitve rounds to give a fair representation of his golfing skill level. If you get strokes in match play based on your regular rounds, to give a true representation of your skill level the rounds should be played the same way. And this doesn't mean that the player has to go for birdies on every hole. He's a 21 capper, I'm sure birdies are few and far between.

Just my opinion, I believe its unethical, others don't. So be it.

[BC MIST]

Once again, I have to agree with Sphere Hunter, I don't see how some of you can't see there is something wrong with what this guy is doing. Is he cheating, no, but he is manipulating the system.

And in response to whoever said perhaps the player is still shooting near his cap, but SH said he was at one point under par in his match and still losing. To me that doesn't sound like Mr 21 Cap was shooting near his cap, sounds like he was shooting much better than his "regular" game.

And a lot of us can't see why some of you can't see that Mr. 21 did nothing wrong. If his intent by using the driver was to establish an inflated handicap, you would have a solid point. He didn't. You don't.

Therefore, there now must be three kinds of golfers. Those who play by the rules. Those who don't. And those who think they are ethical.

[Kilroy]

If you get strokes in match play based on your regular rounds, to give a true representation of your skill level the rounds should be played the same way.

I can't find that in the rulebook or handicapping manual.

[BC MIST]

Then why did they change the rule? (Rhetorical question. I know why...)

In rethinking Tiger's scenario, would the boulder NOT have been a loose impediment instead of a moveable obstruction as I indicated above.

Before Decision 23/2 was included, having the spectators move the boulder was acceptable. No rule was broken and so nothing unethical was done.

In their infinite wisdom, the powers at be saw a weakness in the rule that gave too much of an advantage to the player for a bad shot, and changed the rule. Good for them.

[Big Johnny69]

I can't find that in the rulebook or handicapping manual.

What I meant was that if, according to the handicap manual where you have to make the best score possible (or however its worded), he thinks he scores best (and yes, you still have to score in match play) with irons then he should be posting rounds with irons.

Not sure about the rest of you, but in the few matches I've played where I got strokes, I wasn't playing for bogie or whatever. I was playing to win the hole outright. If I'm playing a lower cap player, he's got a good chance to make a great score, so maybe my stroke might not half the hole. I play to win, not to not lose.

But like it has appeared here, some view it one way, others another way. Either way, I think this could be a never ending discussion so I to am now done with it.

[Kilroy]

I don't agree that protecting yourself against your weakness is playing to lose. Avoid your weakness and you avoid giving away holes when you make mistakes. In this case his weakness is his driver. What if he suddenly starts chipping with a 7 iron bump and run instead of playing the lob wedge flop shot he usually plays? Is he cheating then?

[Sphere Hunter]

What if he suddenly starts chipping with a 7 iron bump and run instead of playing the lob wedge flop shot he usually plays? Is he cheating then?

Good analogy Dan.

I still think that, on the ethics side, it comes down to intent. Since Mr. 21 didn't intent to manipulate his handicap, he is acting ethically. I still think he is manipulating the system, but it isn't intentional. I guess the lesson is that whenever possible, net events should be flighted so players end up competing against others of similar ability.

I once had to give 32 shots to a player in a match. I won but I really didn't feel like it was a match at all. I just played and watched my competitor. If he made a par or bogie he won, if he made a quad I won. It wasn't much fun. I didn't feel like I was even in the match. He just played against himself, in a struggle against his own handicap.

[Kilroy]

Agreed. 18 strokes is a large difference. The matches would be better if the difference between competitors was 9 strokes or less.

[Golfbum]

Most people give up when they are defeated, only true champions
have the courage to fight on.

Excess stress in your life can lead to health problems, been there, done that.
Relax a little. This guy did not beat you in a match, so why get your shorts in a knot?
Do I agree with his driver strategy? NO
Is he cheating? NO
Is he a wee bit of a sandbagger? IMO YES
But why worry about it? If you run into the situation at your club then have your committee or management look into the matter.
Why bother beating your head against the wall in this thread?

I do not give up easily if I think I am correct on a matter. But this matter really doesn't need 80+ posts to resolve it!
LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO WORRY ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S GOLF GAME.

[BC MIST]

If you had a injured ankle and continued to play golf, as best you could, and your handicap rose by 5 strokes over a couple on months. Then, having finally recovered, played a net match and you cream the guy by playing your normal pre-injury game, at the very least, I would be appologizing for the unfortunately timing of the match. If I didn't, and although no rule was broken, I would think it would be a little unethical.

If you have a temporary disability like the one you described above, the ethical thing to do is to approach the Handicap Committee and apply for a "Local" handicap. This is not a handicap factor but a handicap that you can use at your club until your condition changes. As you get better, the ethical thing to do is to continue to be in contact with the committee to keep them up to date with your condition and to see if the local handicap needs to be reduced. The system would show your handicap with an "L" beside it.

I am not sure if this is appropriate, but logically, when you got injured and then received your "L" handicap, you would cease to post scores until you were healed and the handicap committee eliminated the "L" handicap.

[BC MIST]

ut this matter really doesn't need 80+ posts to resolve it!

Errr. 148 and counting.

[TourIQ]

Obviously he should have taken that one to the handicapping comittee. THAT's a sandbager.

Hi Dan

My son knew the eventual winner cheated via his blatent sandbagging tendecies but he could care less with having to call this guy out as a cheater, since it was a handicap match. The prestigeous of winning a local club matchplay event was not worth a cup of coffee at Timmy's. He said if the win means so much that the guy had to cheat to win then let him win and keep fooling himself.

Now if it was a Low Gross event and he seen the guy cheating while playing he would definitely call him on it. He is also the first to give others the benefit of the doubt. He once DQ a junior who had gone all the way to the World Junior Optimist Championship the previous year. The kid had the most terrible swing, collapsing his knees nearly a full 6 inches as he approached the ball. No way this swing would yield scores of high 70's. So as a marshall he watched the 15 year old take all shots on Hole 2, a par 3. When the kid signed his score card at the completion of the match he had marked a par 3 instead of the actual 5. He also had the Low Gross score '78' in the clubhouse [no big suprise]. He cheated on this hole by 2 strokes. My son DQ'ed him on the spot . He never advanced to get to the World's that year . Funny how this same kid could never break '100' when he played the World's in Florida. I guess his parents just chalked it up to having a bad week. When he got to the World's his Mom and Dad bought him a new $400 USD TaylorMade driver as a gift. They wouldn't know he was a cheater until the following year when he got DQ'ed by my son.

[TourIQ]

Good analogy Dan.I once had to give 32 shots to a player in a match. I won but I really didn't feel like it was a match at all.

WOW, 32 is a ton of strokes to have to give up and you still won
Did your oponent feel like a