Is this Cheating?

[jvincent]

I really seem to have hit a sensitive spot with this topic. How many inflated handicaps are out there?????????????

Also, the fact that he wins match after match and is known for being unbeatable in match play proves he is a sandbagger.

It doesn't prove he is a sandbagger. It highlights a flaw in the handicapping system.

If the handicap manual said you should try to make your "best average score" on a hole then it would be different.

[Terry Clarke]

Following is what an earlier guy posted:

"Two basic premises underlie the RCGA Handicap System, namely that each
player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless
of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable
round for peer review. The player and the player’s Handicap Committee have
joint responsibility for adhering to these premises."

Is that not what it reads???????

[jvincent]

I was the one who posted that.

If by laying up with an iron on a par 4 I have very little chance of making a birdie because I can't hit the green in two, then laying up does not mean I am trying to make my best score.

It means I am limiting my worst score. The two concepts are not equivalent.

[Kilroy]

It is most important to defend against the blowups in a match. Especially for a 20 handicapper.

[spackler]

.....channeling my inner-Indio here.

[BC MIST]

What's that expression? "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

It all boils down to this. When using his driver, was the golfer trying to make the best score possible? The answer is "Yes."

Case closed. No appeal. On to the next topic.

[Terry Clarke]

Sorry, nobody has given you the authority to close a topic. If you are done
with it then stop reading.

The beating a dead horse emoticon was hilarious, thanks for the chuckle.

The fact that he wins match after match proves there is something wrong......
Nobody wins match after match. Even I lose a few

I know it's a different game, but at some chess clubs where I have played, if
someone wins a tournament in a particular section, they are not allowed to
compete in that section again for a minimum of 2 years and upto 3 years at the
directors discretion. Maybe golf tournament directors should incorporate the same
type of rule. This would remove any reason to sandbag.

[jvincent]

The handicapping system accounts for all of this.

All scores, including match play scores are to be entered. If the scores are part of a "tournament", they are recorded with a special indicator and if there are discrepancies between tournament scores and regular scores then the handicap is adjusted.

So, I'll say yet again, if the person is recording all of his scores as per the handicapping system rules then there is absolutely no issue.

Is the handicap system perfect? No.
Does it favour high handicappers playing low handicappers in some instances? Yes.
Does this mean the golfer in question is a sandbagger? No.

I don't know if you've read the handicapping manual or any of the articles at popeofslope.com, but I'd suggest that should be your next step.

[Terry Clarke]

I will also say it once again,

Golf is a game of fair play and sportsmanship. I fail to see why this seems
to be fading more and more to the background in today's society.

1) Is Mr. 21 handicap breaking any rules, no.

2) Is he being unethical, yes.

It is very easy to stay within the rules and still be unethical.

Do you remember when Tiger was snookered behind a huge boulder and he had
the spectators move the huge boulder for him?

Within the rules? Yes. Unethical?.......Definitely.

In our quest to win we have forgotten the true meaning of competition and
sportsmanship. I apologize if I cling to the old values and believe that golf is
a game of honor and integrity.

Always remember, at night a candle is brighter than the sun.

[gbower]

I think you must be getting beat on a regular basis and not enjoying it. Take it to your handicap committee.

[BullDog]

Is the handicap system perfect? No.
Does it favour high handicappers playing low handicappers in some instances? Yes.
Does this mean the golfer in question is a sandbagger? No.

Only mildly off-topic, but the same thing can be said for other sports or games. I'm not a top golfer with a handicap of 15 or sometimes a bit more.

I once was an "above average" 5-pin bowler. It is inevitable that in handicap tournaments that someone with a 175 average will throw a three or five game series that average 220, 230, or even 240. It is much more difficult for someone like me who once held a 240 average to shoot 285, 295 or 305 at that same tournament.

It's so much easier for a so-called "below average" competitor to have a significantly better (proportion-wise) day than someone who has more skill.

Take me, for example - I have floated in the 15-18 handicap range in the last two or three years. I had one magical day in August 2005 and broke 80 for the first time, sinking a long birdie putt on 18 for a 79. My best competitive game came the same year on the Slammer Tour with an 84. With my handicap being where it was, I'd have crushed just about anyone on those days if handicapped scoring were in effect.

My point? Any handicapping system will appear unfair to the super-skilled. You/we may not like it, but there you go - stay out of handicap events (I stopped competing in those bowling-wise years ago) and play straight up.

If there's a way to manipulate the system - legally or otherwise - there will always be that "one person" who will. For some reason we always seem to let that person get the best of us. The fact that this thread is verging on surpassing 100 posts indicates this in spades!!!

[Terry Clarke]

Bulldog,

you are correct in that the one person who manipulates the system tends to get
all the attention. It is true that the handicap system has flaws but it is the best
system we have.

As for me getting beaten on a regular basis, I wouldn't say that. I do win and lose
my share, as anyone playing at their proper handicap should.

I do not doubt that everyone has the occasional magical day, that's what makes us keep coming back. But no player should have "magical days" on a consistent
basis.

Bowling seriously????????? I didn't think anyone did that anymore

[Kilroy]

2) Is he being unethical, yes.

NO

Within the rules? Yes. Unethical?.......Definitely.

NO.
Playing within the rules is certainly ethical.

You are not clinging to old values, you are summarily dismissing the rules of the handicapping system that you don't like.

If a player knows that a relief proceedure is legal by the rules and you feel it is too good do you insist that he be improperly penalized?

If so, then it becomes you who is taking undue advantage.

[Terry Clarke]

Well in deciding between ethical or unethical we must take into account the spirit
of any rule.

Do you think the rules committee envisoned 4 people rolling a boulder out of the
way when they made the loose impediment rule? The boulder in question was
obviously put there for a reason when the hole was designed. Should golf courses
now have to go and bolt all boulders to the ground? At what point does it get
ludicrous. Will Tiger now have a bulldozer follow him around in case a slightly larger
boulder gets in his way???

With regards to handicapping. I can try score my best score on every hole when
shooting for my handicap, but I think I will use my putter off the tee. I hit it
straighter. In fact I will use my putter every time. Even when shooting over water,
instead of trying to carry the water I can whack a putter and skim it across. Oh I took a double bogey!!!!! Oh well, rats my handicap is staying high, but I will do well in my next match. Legal YES, unethical YES.

Any rule book as well as any handicapping system is only as good as the people who are interpreting them. When those people have questionable integrity then the whole game is at stake. The fact that so many of you are willing to accept it as
"within the rules" concerns me.

[Kilroy]

I give up

[jvincent]

With regards to handicapping. I can try score my best score on every hole when
shooting for my handicap, but I think I will use my putter off the tee. I hit it
straighter. In fact I will use my putter every time. Even when shooting over water,
instead of trying to carry the water I can whack a putter and skim it across. Oh I took a double bogey!!!!! Oh well, rats my handicap is staying high, but I will do well in my next match. Legal YES, unethical YES.

Any rule book as well as any handicapping system is only as good as the people who are interpreting them. When those people have questionable integrity then the whole game is at stake. The fact that so many of you are willing to accept it as
"within the rules" concerns me.

I haven't give up yet.

Terry, you just don't seem to get it.

I'm a 7.8 right now and hit the ball pretty well. There are many par 5s that I can reach in two if I hit a good shot over water. When I think I can make it I try. Sometimes I hit a good shot and make eagle (rare) or birdie (reasonable percentage). Sometimes I hit a bad shot and put it in the water and make bogey or worse.

Are you saying I should never try and hit greens in two? Sure I could always lay up but that would take eagle out of play and reduce my birdie frequency. It would also reduce my double bogey frequency.

So come tournament time when instead of laying up like you say I should I drop one on the green and make eagle (for a net double eagle) am I a sandbagger?

[Terry Clarke]

Most people give up when they are defeated, only true champions
have the courage to fight on.

[Kilroy]

Not defeated, just wasting my time.

[Terry Clarke]

jvincent,

not at all. I would say nice shot and well played.

I do get it, on every hole and in every situation the risk reward must be
calculated and even then occasionally ignored. But when a player plays
wrecklessly regardless of situation when playing for handicap and then
becomes Mr. Cautious at all times in match play, then I would definitely
say he is sandbagging.

[jvincent]

But when a player plays
wrecklessly regardless of situation when playing for handicap and then
becomes Mr. Cautious at all times in match play, then I would definitely
say he is sandbagging.

Nobody said he was playing wrecklessly and this is the crux of the issue.

He is legitimately trying to score his best during normal rounds. I a match play tournament he is changing his style of play and the handicapping system gives him an advantage.

If he played every one of his rounds as match play then he would have a different handicap but that's not the way the system was designed.

This is why many tournaments use 3/4 handicaps and other means to reduce the inequities that are inherent in the system.

[gbower]

I'll join you Dan

[Kilroy]

Hehehe.

[Terry Clarke]

Wow, two headbangers and it isn't even noon yet. This is a record for me and it
will definitely effect my headbanger handicap. Must be a magical day.

Let me give you a scenario, put Mr. 21 handicap on a course every day for a week
and tell him at the end of the week you will give him $1,000 for every stroke he
averages under 93. Then you would definitely see his true handicap because it is
in his interest to score low. I guarantee you it will not be 21.

[BullDog]

Wow, two headbangers and it isn't even noon yet. This is a record for me and it
will definitely effect my headbanger handicap. Must be a magical day.

Let me give you a scenario, put Mr. 21 handicap on a course every day for a week
and tell him at the end of the week you will give him $1,000 for every stroke he
averages under 93. Then you would definitely see his true handicap because it is
in his interest to score low. I guarantee you it will not be 21.

I've been as high as 19 in the last year. To imply that this "reward" of yours would magically make me play any differently than I do either with friends or in competition is nuts. I don't need $1,000 a stroke to give me incentive to shoot 85 rather than 95. Signing a card with an 85 is incentive enough.

[Terry Clarke]

If your handicap is accurate then any incentive wouldn't matter. You may even
pop in an 85 round or two and I would say "excellent, good shooting", but you
would be just as likely to pop in a 97 round or two. At the end of the week you
should average close to your handicap, that is why more than one or two games
are required.

I could offer him $1,000,000 per stroke, but if his handicap is accurate it wouldn't
really matter, because over an extended period he should average his handicap.

But if he miraculously averaged 83 then I would have mixed feelings, first I would be happy because I proved he is a sandbagger . Secondly I would be pissed
because I would owe him $8,000,000.

[jvincent]

Let me give you a scenario, put Mr. 21 handicap on a course every day for a week
and tell him at the end of the week you will give him $1,000 for every stroke he
averages under 93. Then you would definitely see his true handicap because it is
in his interest to score low. I guarantee you it will not be 21.

Interesting experiment, but that is not what a handicap is a measure of.

I've played this game. Played irons only at my usual course and shot an 84 as I recall. If I did that on a regular basis I would probably average right around that but with less variation in my scores. Irons only removed the bad scores because of driver misses but limited my scoring potential.

An average of 84 would make me about a 10.5.

Because the handicap system favours low scores more, my actual handicap based on a scoring average of 83 where I use driver is 7.8.

Like I said, the handicap system is what it is and it isn't perfect. That fact does not make somebody a sandbagger.

[jonf]

If your handicap is accurate then any incentive wouldn't matter. You may even
pop in an 85 round or two and I would say "excellent, good shooting", but you
would be just as likely to pop in a 97 round or two. At the end of the week you
should average close to your handicap, that is why more than one or two games
are required.

I could offer him $1,000,000 per stroke, but if his handicap is accurate it wouldn't
really matter, because over an extended period he should average his handicap.

But if he miraculously averaged 83 then I would have mixed feelings, first I would be happy because I proved he is a sandbagger . Secondly I would be pissed
because I would owe him $8,000,000.

Dude, for the last time, he's not playing strokeplay. Who knows what the guy is shooting? In all likelihood, from what we know, the guy is actually shooting VERY close to his 21 cap. Taking irons of the tee he is probably making the occasional par, with mostly bogies. With this strategy, he is shooting high 80s at best, likely low 90s. Of course, we don't know for sure, because you don't keep track in match play.

And match play always favours high handicappers. It is the nature of the beast. Why is that? Is it because most high handicappers are cheaters? No, its because most high handicappers don't have the best course management skills, and their egos are too big to let them put the driver away. Does this mean that its cheating, or unethical, or against the spirit of the game for them to realize their weaknesses and use a strategy that minimizes their mistakes? No, its not, its just smart. The truth is, matchplay can only be a true test when you have two players with an equal cap going head to head. The handicap system, though flawed, provides the opportunity to play on a more level playing field. It does not claim to put players on a perfectly level playing field though, so why should you expect it to?

Put it this way. If this 21 cap is playing a scratch golfer, he gets 2 strokes on 3 of the holes. Imagine these three particular wholes were all relatively short 350-400 yard par fours. Now, if you were a casual observer, and saw the 21 cap walk up to the tee with a driver on one of these holes, you'd likely slap him in the face for being such an idiot, on a hole where he only has to hit three 7 irons, 2 putt, and then, at worst, tie (IF his opponent manages a birdies). So, is he being unethical if he takes a 7 iron out? Or is he being unethical (on account of EXTREME stupidity) by taking the driver ?

[Terry Clarke]

jonf,

Once again, in match play he should win some, even more than 50% if he is truly
smart. Lets even say he is brilliant and give him 75%, but he should still lose his
fair share.

I really wish all the experts would explain how a player with a 21 Handicap would
continuously win at match play. Even get a reputation as being unbeatable. I would
surely love to know his secret.

Personally, I get a sense that there are more sandbags being filled when he plays
than there are at the American Embassy in Israel.

[Rapture Man]

Terry and jv, rewards do make a difference.

A couple of years ago, I walked on a course as a single and joined three others who said that I could as long as I accepted to play their usual side bets. Closest to the pin on par 3s, low 9s and low 18. I had never played for money playing golf or at any other sport for that matter. My handicap factor starting the 2004 season was 12.6. Well I shot a 76, and cleaned them out. My ego was very inflated after that game but was quickly deflated since I never broke 80 for the rest of the year or since then. Maybe I should play more often for a reward.

Reward does matter....!!!!

[jonf]

jonf,

Once again, in match play he should win some, even more than 50% if he is truly
smart. Lets even say he is brilliant and give him 75%, but he should still lose his
fair share.

I really wish all the experts would explain how a player with a 21 Handicap would
continuously win at match play. Even get a reputation as being unbeatable. I would
surely love to know his secret.

Personally, I get a sense that there are more sandbags being filled when he plays
than there are at the American Embassy in Israel.

From the initial poster:

This guy thinks he is a great match player because of his rep for winning handicapped matches

This does not say that he is unbeatable. It just says that he has a reputation for winning when it comes to matchplay. Nowhere does it say that he's never lost, or that he doesn't lose his fair share (whatever that translates to). As for why he wins a lot at matchplay, we've already said why he wins, and have said so repeatedly, you just aren't listening. I'm not saying you have to agree, but we have explained why matchplay benefits a high handicapper (which it undoubtedly does). It's a lot easier to cut a couple of strokes off when you're a 21 cap than when you're a scratch golfer, because as a high capper, all you have to do is eliminate the big scores from your scorecard, and you're in excellent shape against your opponent.