Is this Cheating?

[jvincent]

Nine holes scores are allowed and accounted for in the handicapping formula.

[nice_lag]

I got the excuse "I only play 9 holes and the system no longer allows 9 hole scores to be entered"
Good thing the +2 won the match.[/FONT]
There is no Handicap Committee at my course. There should be but there isn't. So it is up to all members to make sure their playing partners enter correct scores into the computer. Again, that just doesn't happen.
Is there anyway around this? I am sure there is, but it would take full co-operation from the members and management to make it happen.
It truly is sad that someone has to fudge their index so they can win a mickey mouse tournament prize.

The handicap system mandates that 9-hole scores be entered. The score will sit "idle" waiting for another 9-hole score to be added. They will then show as one combined score.

It is important that the club management creates a culture where all members enter their score, whether they participate in tournaments or not.

[BC MIST]

Just curious. What would someone who only plays 9 holes be expected to do if the handicapping system doesn't allow for entering 18 hole scores? Surely they can't add two nines and call it an 18. That would be cheating too. Assuming that player was telling the truth, what should they have done to establish their proper handicap?

From a previous post above, I outlined what scores must be entered into the handicap system.

These scores MUST be posted:
1. when you play 7,8,9,10,11,12 holes, you MUST post a 9 hole score.
2. when you play 13,14,15,16,17,18 holes you MUST post an 18 hole score.
3. all scores on courses with an RCGA rating, during the active season (Ottawa - April 15 to October 30 as determined by the OVGA) MUST be posted
4. match and stroke play games MUST be posted
5. games in which you were disqualified MUST be posted.

If you only play 7 or 8 holes, you enter par plus any handicap strokes you would have been entitled to receive and if you play 10 to 12, holes, #10, #11 and #12 hole scores are deleted.

[BC MIST]

I had a dispute to settle during Match Play a couple of years ago. A +2 had to play a so called -10 in a match. Now the +2 had to give up 8 strokes according to the rules. Problem was that the guy with the -10 index did not have enough scores from that year to justify that handicap. I raised this issue with the Club Management, but was told not to make waves and to let the guy play. I told the guy from now on enter your scores. I got the excuse "I only play 9 holes and the system no longer allows 9 hole scores to be entered"

Perhaps the reason why the +2 won the match is because he did NOT give the opponent the correct number of strokes. The correct difference between a +2 and a -10 is 12 strokes, not 8. It is not necessary to have "enough scores" from that year to maintain a handicap factor, even though this guy was obviously a cheater, as your scores from one year carry over to the next.

There is no Handicap Committee at my course. There should be but there isn't. So it is up to all members to make sure their playing partners enter correct scores into the computer. Again, that just doesn't happen.
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Is there anyway around this? I am sure there is, but it would take full co-operation from the members and management to make it happen.

Is your club a member of the RCGA? If it is, IT IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A HANDICAP COMMITTEE in order to be able to use the RCGA Handicap System and for members to have a handicap factor. Get a copy of the Handicap Manual from the RCGA. (It can be downloaded from the RCGA website) On page 2-3, "Section 1-2 - Authorization and Licensing," the requirements for use of the Handcap System are outlined. If the club does not have a committee, it is not permitted to use the Handicap System. I would suggest you point this out to management, volunteer to form a Handicap Committee, get someone certified, educate the members and once done, start nailing the cheaters. I have done this at our club and it is really not a lot of work.

[twoputt]

not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not, but the way the handicap system is set up you should not be able to shoot your handicap all that often. I would say that if someone regularly shoots below their handicap during competetion they are definately sandbagging. just my 0.02

[Golfbum]

Just curious. What would someone who only plays 9 holes be expected to do if the handicapping system doesn't allow for entering 18 hole scores? Surely they can't add two nines and call it an 18. That would be cheating too. Assuming that player was telling the truth, what should they have done to establish their proper handicap?

He wasn't telling the truth, he was a liar. His friends told the guy he had to play in that match "Hey you have to play the sandbagger now, good luck"
We were told for handicap purposes he could enter two seperate 9's, front then back. Sure, both were not played on the same day, but at least it is better than nothing.

[Kilroy]

Not only is it better than nothing, it's required.

[Golfbum]

Not only is it better than nothing, it's required.

And with that my question was answered. I was sure it was required in the past. I used to belong to a 9 hole course and we were always told to put in our 9 hole scores for handicap purposes.
Thanks Dan

[BC MIST]

We were told for handicap purposes he could enter two seperate 9's, front then back. Sure, both were not played on the same day, but at least it is better than nothing.

As Dan said the Handicap System requires that 9 hole scores be posted. The RCGA software will store a 9 hole score until another is added. The system them combines these two 9's and reveals an 18 hole score with a "C" beside it on the record sheet, which means combined.

The 9's can be played anywhere, don't have to be on the same course and don't have to be played on consecutive days, as long as the correct slope, course rating and tees are specified.

[sensfan63]

I'm going way back in this thread, but is there any question that this guy, during his handicapping rounds, doesn't try to hit his driver in the fairway? Does anyone think that he TRIES to hit balls in the water or OB? Serious question here.

There are thousands of golfers who would be better served if they just hit 3W off the tee. But they continue to try and hit driver, why?, because it's a challenge and they believe they should be able to do so consistently. When they are playing a "casual" round, they are playing only against the golf course and themsleves. In a match, they are playing against an opponent, so they choose the wisest course of action to beat that opponent.

Nobody is saying that this guy is TRYING to shoot high scores when he uses his driver...he just sucks with his driver. So therefore he isn't cheating. IMO.

[nice_lag]

As Dan said the Handicap System requires that 9 hole scores be posted. The RCGA software will store a 9 hole score until another is added. The system them combines these two 9's and reveals an 18 hole score with a "C" beside it on the record sheet, which means combined.

I thought that it was what I had said earlier lol... all good guys.

[Sphere Hunter]

I'm going way back in this thread, but is there any question that this guy, during his handicapping rounds, doesn't try to hit his driver in the fairway? Does anyone think that he TRIES to hit balls in the water or OB? Serious question here.

There are thousands of golfers who would be better served if they just hit 3W off the tee. But they continue to try and hit driver, why?, because it's a challenge and they believe they should be able to do so consistently. When they are playing a "casual" round, they are playing only against the golf course and themsleves. In a match, they are playing against an opponent, so they choose the wisest course of action to beat that opponent.

Nobody is saying that this guy is TRYING to shoot high scores when he uses his driver...he just sucks with his driver. So therefore he isn't cheating. IMO.

Hi, just back from a vacation and reading through this thread.

No this guy does not intentionally hit it into trouble. He is just not a good driver of the golf ball. He has a "choppy" swing that is more suited to hitting irons than woods. I guess he uses regular rounds to work on improving his driving and pays the price with high scores. Although he carried a 21 hdcp at the time, he was a decent iron player. When he played irons the entire day at a very short course like the Canadian, he just had a great score. I was 3 under par after 16 holes and the match was over and I had lost. I don't think I could have played any better and it wasn't even a close match.

Like BCmist said in an earlier post, he may have just had a good (great) day. My problem was that the weakest part of his game (driving) was used to establish his cap, then he smartly identified the weakness and avoided it during the match.

I guess it's a grey area of the golf and will continue to be so. I think this is something that goes on every day in "net" golf and is one of the reasons why I don't feel it's a fair playing field most of the time when you're matching a high handicap against a lower one.

Like I said in an earlier post, I have talked to him (my opponent) about the strategy change and I truly believe he did not try to intentionally inflate his cap. He just didn't hit his driver well, even though I do believe he always tried his best to do so.

So is it a matter of his intention?

If a player is a good match player, is this because he has a hightened level of attention during matches or because he doesn't pay attention during regular rounds? I think this is the essence of the question for me.

Hope this post makes sense after two glasses of wine…

SH

[Kilroy]

That being the case, I'd say he identified his weakness, played smart by avoiding it and you lost.

It's always easier for a 20 'cap to smarten up and shave 5 strokes in a given round than for a scratch player to do the same. It would be nice if in matches you could always be paired with someone closer to your own 'cap, but it does not work that way. 18 strokes is a lot to be giving up, and it's tough to lose by a large margin when you "don't think you could have played any better" That wouldn't happen if there were only 5 or 6 strokes between you.

[Terry Clarke]

Hitting wayward tee shots and losing balls is an expensive way to
pad his handicap, why doesn't he just 5 putt every green

While I don't believe it is technically cheating, it is highly unethical.
He has obviously forgotten that golf is a game of honor and fair play.
Every golfer's goal should be to reach a zero handicap. Padding his
handicap to win a match renders the result meaningless.

Don't let his nonsense consume any more of your energy. Let him enjoy
his hollow victories for now. Work on improving your own game and one
day you will beat him no matter what club he uses.

[Kilroy]

Tiger has recieved a lot of praise this weekend for teeing up on 18 with an iron. He had a lead and he protected it. Was Tiger cheating? Was Mickelson smarter playing driver when he threw away his major?

Mr 21 handicap here did much the same thing as Tiger, albeit from the first tee on. In getting a stroke a hole he needed bogies to match SH in this match, and pars could win him holes. He was smart to do as he did. In a casual round he's not protecting anything and plays his driver.

Would we even be having this discussion if he had an 8 handicap and did the same thing?

[Terry Clarke]

Tiger doesn't pad his handicap, therefore his motives are pure. He choses
an iron on the 18th to protect a lead that he has obtained against other
0 handicap golfers. He played 71 holes of golf to get to that point. When
they started hole 1 they were all on equal ground.

Mr. 21 handicap on the otherhand maintains a high handicap on purpose
so he can play matches against weaker players and then claim meaningless
victories. When Mr. 21 handicap starts hole 1 against weaker players,
he has a 10 stroke lead already due to his padded handicap.

I do not think we can compare the two scenarios.

If everyone did what Mr. 21 handicap does the whole handicap system would
be rendered meaningless. The idea behind handicapping is to get a true measure
of a players skill level over an extended period. If a player has a 21 handicap
and is capable of shooting an 80 when he choses, then what is the point?

The only reason someone capable of shooting an 80 would want to compete
against people who are shooting in the 90's would be to fill his mantle with
empty trophies?

Mr. Handicap has become so focused on victory that he leaves his honor and
sportsmanship in the locker room every time he puts on his spikes. In fact...
my handicap is getting too low I am finding tournaments harder to win, maybe
I will play my next few rounds blindfolded.

[Kilroy]

Mr. 21 handicap on the otherhand maintains a high handicap on purpose

I have not seen any evidence of that in this scenario.

In fact SH, who posed the initial question, followed up with this statement

I have talked to him (my opponent) about the strategy change and I truly believe he did not try to intentionally inflate his cap. He just didn't hit his driver well, even though I do believe he always tried his best to do so.

Therefore to accuse him of inflating his 'cap is incorrect and unfair.

[Terry Clarke]

I do not know this individual, so I can only speak in general terms.

If the purpose of handicapping is to level the playing filed, then the same person
should not win match after match as his handicap should slowly gravitate towards
the level of his true ability while the competition he faces becomes more difficult
as he progresses.

I cannot comprehend why a player who can shoot in the low 80's would want to
maintain a 21 handicap. Imagine starting every tournament with a 10 stroke lead.
Personally I would prefer to lose a 1 stroke heartbreaker to the best competition I
can find than to win a meaningless victory by 10 strokes over weaker players.

To quote a "pretty good" player in another game,
"I learn more from 1 loss than I do from 1,000 wins"....Bobby Fischer

[Rapture Man]

I agree totally with you Dan.

I have been living the same issue for the past two years. My handicap was a solid 12 up to two years ago and was as low as 8 for a few weeks in the summer of 2003. I have always been a very good driver until I injured my left shoulder at the beginning of the 2005 season. I continued playing (golfaddict excuse) throughout 2005 and had to quit by the end of August (playing with my wedge and putter for the last two games). My handicap was now 19 and after extensive physio, my shoulder was better, but my drives were now all over the place. Bought a new driver (PING G2) and everything got worse. Managed to keep my handicap at 19 throughout 2006 until I got fitted at Kevin Haimes and got a new fitted driver and hybrid. Played the last four games of 2006 in the low 80s and I feel now the potential of getting my handicap back on track but still have a lot of work to do.

I know I can get very good scores playing with my irons and keeping my driver in the bag but I will do that only when it will count. Until then, I am using every club in the bag even though my handicap stays high. Am I cheating? I don't think so. I expect my handicap will adjust itself hopefully this year but until then game on.

Comments are welcome....!!!

[Terry Clarke]

I believe your handicap should reflect your tournament playing state. If that state
is driverless then that's the state that your handicap should reflect.

Leaving driver in the bag to protect a lead or when risk outweighs reward is not
the same as making a conscious decision to leave teh driver in the bag all together
even before the game starts because you are a better player without it.

Why not rotate games. One game with all clubs, one game in tournament state?
That way you can maintain a handicap in your tournament state while continuing
to practice with your driver in a game situation?

This would remove all appearances of inpropriety whether intentional or not and also increase your competition as you are playing opponents at your own level.

Again, what fun could someone who shoots 80 have playing against people who shoot 91?

[Kilroy]

The handicapping system already puts more weight on tournament rounds. I think you should download the Handicapping manual from the RCGA website for a better understanding of how the system works. You sound like someone who is interested enough to benefit from some further reading.

[jonf]

I believe your handicap should reflect your tournament playing state. If that state
is driverless then that's the state that your handicap should reflect.

Leaving driver in the bag to protect a lead or when risk outweighs reward is not
the same as making a conscious decision to leave teh driver in the bag all together
even before the game starts because you are a better player without it.

Why not rotate games. One game with all clubs, one game in tournament state?
That way you can maintain a handicap in your tournament state while continuing
to practice with your driver in a game situation?

This would remove all appearances of inpropriety whether intentional or not and also increase your competition as you are playing opponents at your own level.

Again, what fun could someone who shoots 80 have playing against people who shoot 91?

I think you are forgetting the fact that matchplay golf is an entirely different game. It's not about the final score, its about the individual hole. As I've said before, what's good for a tournament/strokeplay round is not the same as what's good for a matchplay round.

[Terry Clarke]

The issue isn't whether match play and stroke play are different games, I believe we can all agree to that one. The issue is his level of competition in match play is
determined by what he does between tournaments in non match play.

I repeat, while maintaining a handicap that is inflated is not technically cheating, it is unethical. To then enter stroke play or match play tournaments based on that
inflated handicap is unfair and shameful.

In stroke play Mr. 21 handicap can be a true 10 handicap and enter as an inflated
21 handicap and shoot an 87. He can then win with a net 66 when in reality
he should be scored as a net 77. So he can have a bad day and still win.

In match play he is up against weaker competition because of his inflated
handicap. Mr. 21 handicap should just go down to the local kindergarten, I am
sure he can find an opponent there who he can beat.

[jvincent]

Two basic premises underlie the RCGA Handicap System, namely that each
player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless
of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable
round for peer review. The player and the player’s Handicap Committee have
joint responsibility for adhering to these premises.

The above is directly from the handicap manual.

Consider the case of a long par 4. If a golfer knows that he is inconsistent with the driver but that the best score he can make occurs only when he hits driver then he should be using his driver on the hole. If the act of hitting driver ALSO brings double bogey into play, that is irrelevant for handicapping purposes.

Winning a hole in match play and trying to make your best score on a hole are two different things.

[BC MIST]

I repeat, while maintaining a handicap that is inflated is not technically cheating, it is unethical. To then enter stroke play or match play tournaments based on that inflated handicap is unfair and shameful.

Why do continue to ignore Dan's point in post 77? The golfer does NOT do what you continuously suggest he does and that is to intentionally maintain a high handicap. Read SH's post above. His tactic was to do exactly what Tiger did at Doral and that was NOT to score low on 18, but to avoid a big number. Big numbers are avoided in the handicap system by using ESC, when posting a score. If the guy was intentionally padding his handicap, you would have a case. He was not, so you don't.

While it would be ideal to use tournament scores to establish a handicap, as they do in the UK, most golfers play few, if any, tournament rounds.

[Terry Clarke]

You are completely missing my point... Nobody is disputing the difference between
stroke play and match play. We all know different games require different strategies.

The clause you showed me states that he must try to shoot his best score on
every hole when determining his handicap. He is obviously not doing this.

When he plays in a tournament he never uses his driver he only uses irons at all times because he knows that's how he will shoot his best score. When he plays
rounds to determine his handicap he uses the driver even though he knows it is
shaky and he will score higher.

Because of this, his handicap is inflated and therefore entering tournaments with
that handicap is unethical.

[Terry Clarke]

BC Mist,

Read the original post. He stated that his opponent only uses driver when determining his handicap and puts it away at all times in a tournament.

He is intentionally maintaining a higher handicap so he can win at match play
against weaker opponents.

Tiger was protecting a lead against opponents of equal handicap.

BIG Difference!!!!!!

[Kilroy]

Oh well. I guess you are only giving credence the posts that support your view.
The original poster said in a later post that he was satisfied that the player was not inflating his cap intentionally.

I don't understand why you are so convinced he was, you don't even know the guy!

If he wasn't inflatng his cap (sandbagging) he wasn't cheating by hitting irons only in a tournament, he was playing smart. That would be the answer to the question asked in post #1.

The question was not "Is this fella a sandbagger?"

[jonf]

You are completely missing my point... Nobody is disputing the difference between
stroke play and match play. We all know different games require different strategies.

The clause you showed me states that he must try to shoot his best score on
every hole when determining his handicap. He is obviously not doing this.

When he plays in a tournament he never uses his driver he only uses irons at all times because he knows that's how he will shoot his best score. When he plays
rounds to determine his handicap he uses the driver even though he knows it is
shaky and he will score higher.

Because of this, his handicap is inflated and therefore entering tournaments with
that handicap is unethical.

To me, he obviously IS trying to shoot the best score when handicapping. Only when he brings out his driver does he bring birdies and pars into the mix. During the match, he is not trying to shoot his best score, he is trying to shoot his least worst score (bad wording, I know, but I think you catch my drift). His play is entirely consistent with the rule that jvincent stated, and the spirit of the game. Case closed, in my book.

[Terry Clarke]

I am sure his driver brings bogey and double bogey into play more often than par and birdie, why do you think he puts it away in torunament play?

I really seem to have hit a sensitive spot with this topic. How many inflated handicaps are out there?????????????

Also, the fact that he wins match after match and is known for being unbeatable in match play proves he is a sandbagger.
Even Tiger isn't unbeatable in match play. Maybe if Mr. 21 handicap played opponents at his own level he would suffer
defeat occasionally. I sense his ego wouldn't allow that, hence the sandbagging.