Is this Cheating?

[pvs1313]

LOL

Isn't that the truth Sakuraba,

I am the same,

no one of course would believe it, but I always, always shoot better if I play a round alone.

it is pressure, whe you are alone, or just with people who you don't really kow and nothign is on the ine, you are far far far more relaxed and able to just play, when there is soemthig nriding, of course you are thinking about it all, and thee it goes

[LobWedge]

By this logic if I use my driver on ANY hole where there is ANY RISK of the ball ending up in the trees or water or OB, I should not be using it. ("to make the lowest score possible.") As there is this kind of trouble on virtually every hole that we play, no-one on this forum should ever use the driver. This is absurd. Sphere Hunter is a very good, low handicap golfer. He achieved his low handicap by using his driving length to his advantage, but I have also seen him hit the ball crooked and into trouble. The use of the driver is always a risk and that unknown is part of what makes the unpredictability of the shot, exciting.

The assumption that by playing his 5 or 7 iron off the tee on almost every hole, that his score will ALWAYS be, lower is also incorrect. It can happen, but it is the exception. All of you go play 10 games where your longest club used is a 5 iron and see how many times you score lower than average. Giving up 70 to 80 yards on the 4's and 5's will hurt you more often than help.

Ah yes, but at least you are thinking about the consequences of using the driver, and not just carelessly flailing away without regard to the outcome and the effect on your score. The rules say that you can use 14 clubs and use them wherever and however you like within that framework, but the handicap system, which is completely separate from the rules of play, expects that players will establish a reasonable, consistent pattern of play, with an eye towards improvement, that can be used to fairly compare your skillset to that of others in competition. It's like driving around town speeding and disregarding traffic signals, but suddenly driving "responsibly" when you happen to see a cop. You're still "cheating" even if you don't get caught.

I disagree that SH's length off the tee is solely the result of his low handicap. That's a very narrow statement. SH's handicap is most likely the result of a) counless hours of practice (driver included), b) excellent course management skills (of which proper club selection is a big part), and c) trying to make the best score possible on every hole in every round (I know I've heard this somewhere before...).

Your point here may be valid, however, is it not the same as the original of the opponent just using the driver. While there is a risk of the opponent hitting the trees/water, whatever, there is also a risk of his hitting the fairway and it is likely that he hits the fairway more often than not. Using the driver is part of the risk of the game and the Handicap System is not designed for IRONS ONLY golfers.

Proof of my last statement comes from having attended the RCGA Certification Seminar last July at the Hunt Club, given by Matt MacKay, where this very question was raised and discussed. SH's opponent, using his driver in the normal course of play and establishing a handicap from that, is 100% acceptable and is not contrary to the spirit of the game. Using irons instead of woods in any game is not contrary to anything.

Golfers whose handicaps are honest, will beat their handicap an average of ONLY 25% of the time. In looking at my own for 2006, the percentage was 22%. Golfers who win a disproportionate number of net prizes need the HC to take a close look at the player's games and modify their handicaps if they find a problem. How many clubs have a HC that will do this?

I agree that golf is not an "irons only game". Physics alone dictates that the driver is harder to hit consistently well. Golf is a risk/reward game, but the handicap system demands that you take risk into consideration when attempting to post an accurate representation of your skill level.

I completely disagree with the Matt MacKay example. If that arguement is being used to defend a player's handicap, then it is a cop-out, and here's why. Why did SH's opponent switch to hitting only irons off the tee in competitive rounds? Because he knew that driver would likely get him in more trouble. How did he know this? Because he used driver infinitely more during the rounds played in establishing his handicap in the first place. There's where the problem lies. The handicap system demands that player's attempt to try to post the best score possible at all times. That is why your handicap is determined by using scores from more than one round. It establishes a reasonable pattern of performance. That is also why the handicap system differentiates between competitive and non-competitive rounds. There's checks and balances. SH's opponent thought he found a loophole in the system because scores for handicapping purposes are not recorded for rounds contested in match play. In that case, it is the responsibilty of the handicap committee to monitor those irregularities that cannot be accounted for inside the normal handicapping framework. Skill is not only your ability to strike the ball well. It is also measured in your ability to think your way around the course.

[GarthM]

What I find amusing in all this, is that I am the total opposite of the player in question. I play my best rounds when alonein the evening, or matched up randomly with somebody halfway through, having a few beers. I hit my driver like a madman, and play very very quickly.

When the qualifying tournaments come up, I try to play conservatively, line up the putts, put the driver away, but shoot consistantly way above my index.

By playing conservatively, you are going away from your regular routine and that is what causes problems. What you need to do is play aggressively conservative. Meaning that you play a conservative shot, but use an "aggressive" swing. By aggressive I mean you just put your normal swing on it. Playing conservative tends to lead to decelleration and "lazy" shots. Also if you are a real feel player, especially with the short game, trying too hard will cause problems with your touch because you don't let your natural ability work for you. Just my opinion.

[Big Johnny69]

Ah yes, but at least you are thinking about the consequences of using the driver, and not just carelessly flailing away without regard to the outcome and the effect on your score. The rules say that you can use 14 clubs and use them wherever and however you like within that framework, but the handicap system, which is completely separate from the rules of play, expects that players will establish a reasonable, consistent pattern of play, with an eye towards improvement, that can be used to fairly compare your skillset to that of others in competition. It's like driving around town speeding and disregarding traffic signals, but suddenly driving "responsibly" when you happen to see a cop. You're still "cheating" even if you don't get caught.

I disagree that SH's length off the tee is solely the result of his low handicap. That's a very narrow statement. SH's handicap is most likely the result of a) counless hours of practice (driver included), b) excellent course management skills (of which proper club selection is a big part), and c) trying to make the best score possible on every hole in every round (I know I've heard this somewhere before...).



I agree that golf is not an "irons only game". Physics alone dictates that the driver is harder to hit consistently well. Golf is a risk/reward game, but the handicap system demands that you take risk into consideration when attempting to post an accurate representation of your skill level.

I completely disagree with the Matt MacKay example. If that arguement is being used to defend a player's handicap, then it is a cop-out, and here's why. Why did SH's opponent switch to hitting only irons off the tee in competitive rounds? Because he knew that driver would likely get him in more trouble. How did he know this? Because he used driver infinitely more during the rounds played in establishing his handicap in the first place. There's where the problem lies. The handicap system demands that player's attempt to try to post the best score possible at all times. That is why your handicap is determined by using scores from more than one round. It establishes a reasonable pattern of performance. That is also why the handicap system differentiates between competitive and non-competitive rounds. There's checks and balances. SH's opponent thought he found a loophole in the system because scores for handicapping purposes are not recorded for rounds contested in match play. In that case, it is the responsibilty of the handicap committee to monitor those irregularities that cannot be accounted for inside the normal handicapping framework. Skill is not only your ability to strike the ball well. It is also measured in your ability to think your way around the course.

I think some are missing the point here and I think the above rebuttal to BC expalins it perfectly.

Put it this way, perhaps this guy is a relatively good iron player, but terrible wood player. During all his other rounds he flails about wildly all over the course with his driver. OBs, into hazards etc, even with ESC his cap would consistently go up. Then a competition comes up and he never hits his woods. If he's a relatively good iron players of course he's going to score better than his usual rounds. So I have to agree its cheating, cheating the system.

And unless the course is 7000 yds, I could easily score just as well with irons only. Sometimes probably even better.

[jonf]

I think there is a difference between risk/reward and someone intentionally hitting driver every hole where there is no need to do so just to build a high cap. In the end, I don't see the point of playing a lot of crappy rounds just to win the odd match.

Nowhere does it say that he intentionally hit his driver every hole where there was no need to. It says he hit his driver a lot. That doesn't mean there was no need, or that it was an unreasonable decision. Perhaps it was not always the best decision, but who around here can say they've never made bad decisions on course. Hell, if I didn't count my bad decisions, I'd probably be around an 8 cap instead of a 20. But decisions are part of the game.

I'm not saying either way that this guy is cheating or not. I'm just saying that we don't have enough information to call this guy a cheat.

[B Nation]

I think I would need a better feel for the guy to determine his motives.

From what I gather, it doesn't seem to me that he intentionally sprays his drives just so that he can post a higher handicap. Hitting driver is fun, and most of us do it in spots where we know we probably shouldn't. Does that make us sandbaggers?

Again, I don't know the situation well enough, but I think it is possible that this guy's "strategy" may be getting in OP's head. If he is getting a stroke a hole and consistently hitting fairways and making bogeys.... I can see that putting a lot of pressure on someone in a match play situation. Add to the fact that you seem more concerned with his strategy than your own, and your head may be in the wrong place.

To the OP: How much of a spread exists between what his score would be (even though it's match), and is handicap?? If it is only 1-2 strokes... then maybe it's you. If it is consistently 4-5... there could be a problem.

[jeffc]

Nowhere does it say that he intentionally hit his driver every hole where there was no need to. It says he hit his driver a lot. That doesn't mean there was no need, or that it was an unreasonable decision. Perhaps it was not always the best decision, but who around here can say they've never made bad decisions on course. Hell, if I didn't count my bad decisions, I'd probably be around an 8 cap instead of a 20. But decisions are part of the game.

I'm not saying either way that this guy is cheating or not. I'm just saying that we don't have enough information to call this guy a cheat.

we've all made bad decisions, though the intent is different.

If my intent is to hit driver knowing I will inflate my scores vs hitting driver for some risk/rewards, there is a big difference.

[BC MIST]

-You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, just because you disagree with some of the rules of the Handicap System or Matt MacKay who teaches the system, or the R&A, USGA or the RCGA, who have written the Handicap System, does not make you right. Like the Rules of Golf, the rules of the Handicap System are there to be followed and if one does not, then they are cheating.

-There was no indication in SH's original post that his opponent would normally be"carelessly flailing away without regard to the outcome and the effect on his score."This is just an exaggeration to try to make a point.

but the handicap system, which is completely separate from the rules of play, expects that players will establish a reasonable, consistent pattern of play with an eye towards improvement, that can be used to fairly compare your skillset to that of others in competition.

The underlined part of this statement again expresses your opinion and is not part of the manual. If you read 1-1 of the manual, it does say that "The purpose of the Handicap System is to make the game of golf more enjoyable by enabling players of differing abilities to compete on an equitable basis."

It's like driving around town speeding and disregarding traffic signals, but suddenly driving "responsibly" when you happen to see a cop. You're still "cheating" even if you don't get caught.

Our 18th hole has trees and a hazard, right and left in my landing area. I always hit my driver as it gives me a chance to possible hit the par 5 in two. Now, in the Senior Club Championship, with a two stroke lead and teeing off on this last hole, I hit a 3 wood, taking the trees and hazard out of play. By your logic I am CHEATING. By mine it is a strategically sound decision.

I disagree that SH's length off the tee is solely the result of his low handicap. That's a very narrow statement. SH's handicap is most likely the result of a) counless hours of practice (driver included), b) excellent course management skills (of which proper club selection is a big part), and c) trying to make the best score possible on every hole in every round (I know I've heard this somewhere before...).

He doesn't practice. (But he should) Would you say that because he drives over the trees on #13, a higher risk shot, instead of bunting a long iron the the fairway, that he is also CHEATING?

but the handicap system demands that you take risk into consideration when attempting to post an accurate representation of your skill level.

Meaning what? That if I gamble on a hole and don't make it that I should not post the score?

Why did SH's opponent switch to hitting only irons off the tee in competitive rounds? Because he knew that driver would likely get him in more trouble. How did he know this? Because he used driver infinitely more during the rounds played in establishing his handicap in the first place. There's where the problem lies.

Again, the assumption that all his scores would automatically be lower by using a club no longer than a 5 iron, is not true, and again I challenge you to do this - play 10 games, use no longer than a 5 iron, and score lower than normal. You won't do it.

The handicap system demands that player's attempt to try to post the best score possible at all times. That is why your handicap is determined by using scores from more than one round. It establishes a reasonable pattern of performance

Remember, the Handicap System does NOT count the bad games and is a number that reflects what your potential is and what you would score roughly 25% of the time

That is also why the handicap system differentiates between competitive and non-competitive rounds. There's checks and balances. SH's opponent thought he found a loophole in the system because scores for handicapping purposes are not recorded for rounds contested in match play.

Forgive my bluntness, but this statement proves that you don't know what you are talking about, and if you DON'T record match play scores, you are cheating. Read 5-1c, page 27 of the RCGA Handicap Manual January '06 - December '07. "Scores in both match play and stroke play MUST be recorded for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, multi-ball or in team competitions..."

The Handicap System may not fit your idea of what it should be and if you disagree with "the way it is," then you can write to those responsible and suggest a better way of doing things. The "old" boys may even listen. However, the rules are there, and may not be interpreted, only misinterpreted.

FWIW. These scores MUST be posted:
1. when you play 7,8,9,10,11,12 holes, you MUST post a 9 hole score.
2. when you play 13,14,15,16,17,18 holes you MUST post an 18 hole score.
3. all scores on courses with an RCGA rating, during the active season (Ottawa - April 15 to October 30 as determined by the OVGA) MUST be posted
4. match and stroke play games MUST be posted
5. games in which you were disqualified MUST be posted.

Not following these criteria means that one is cheating. Sounds offensive, but it's true. My conjecture is that the majority of the handicaps of golfers are NOT accurate. This is why I don't enter handicap competitions.

The RCGA demands that ALL member clubs have an active Handicap Committee that complies with its 17 requirements, page 41, one of which is to communicate the System to the members and to insist that the rules be followed, subject to handicap modification or even withdrawal, should members refuse to post accurate scores. This process is well underway at our club and I am curious as to what, if anything, other clubs do ensure that handicap factors are accurate. Whew!!!

[Big Johnny69]

-

Our 18th hole has trees and a hazard, right and left in my landing area. I always hit my driver as it gives me a chance to possible hit the par 5 in two. Now, in the Senior Club Championship, with a two stroke lead and teeing off on this last hole, I hit a 3 wood, taking the trees and hazard out of play. By your logic I am CHEATING. By mine it is a strategically sound decision.

That's one hole, in a competition with the lead. What I got from SH's original post is that this guy plays driver during every other round except competitive rounds. So with him switching to irons only for the competitive rounds I assume he doens't hit his driver all that well. And with him playing at the Canadian (I believe that's where he said he played) a wayward driver can get you into trouble. But like I said, I think he's cheating the system.

Go back and read SH's original post, he played with the guy regularly and he regularly hit driver and has run up some high scores thus doing it that way.

[BC MIST]

That's one hole, in a competition with the lead. What I got from SH's original post is that this guy plays driver during every other round except competitive rounds. So with him switching to irons only for the competitive rounds I assume he doens't hit his driver all that well. And with him playing at the Canadian (I believe that's where he said he played) a wayward driver can get you into trouble. But like I said, I think he's cheating the system.

Go back and read SH's original post, he played with the guy regularly and he regularly hit driver and has run up some high scores thus doing it that way.

There is a basic lack of understanding of the handicap system here that is causing the guy to be deemed a cheater. Using the driver in the normal course of play is normal and if his handicap is based on that, then his handicap is valid. After all, this is how all of us play. His choosing to avoid the long clubs and scoring better on match day, is a strategy that worked for him that day, but overall, would not lead to better scores. Heck, I scored a 63 one day using only irons, but I did so because I had 12 one putts, duck hooked my 1 iron twice that hit the trees and came back in the fairway. The next game I played was a 66 (unusual but true) using the driver and fairway clubs. By your (plural) logic, I cheated when I scored 63.

If the guy is cheating then he broke a "rule" of the handicap system. Which one? The one that says you shouldn't hit your driver if there is even the remotest chance of getting into trouble? C'mon. When any one of us tries to "cut a dogleg" to shorten the hole, to give us the chance to make the "best score,(1-1 RCGA Handicap Manual) we are "playing the game" of risk reward, like every other golfer, Tour pro or otherwise does, which makes it so much more fun. Your logic says that golfers should play ULTRA conservatively, no gambling, play to the safest part of every fairway/green/rough, to make the best score possible. Talk about being contrary to the "spirit of the game."

Join us again some Saturday morning and play 5 iron as your longest club. Oh, and we will play $100 skins. Are you game? Let's see, "christain" 325 yards, "sphere hunter" 290 yards, "BC Mist" 250 yards, (I play the whites 'cause I am over 60) "Geoff" 185 yards. How about $200 a hole?

Would love to hear Gary Hill's opinion about all of this.

[bbad]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, but how is this any different from if the guy were to play all of his games left handed and establishes himself as a 20+ handicapp then goes and plays his matches right handed and plays to a 15? I know you are not allowed to have 2 separate index's.....

I don't think anybody is saying that he 'cheated' per say, (at least I don't think he is) but I do feel that if he can play better without playing his driver then his handicapp (which should be an indication of his best level of play) is not correct. To me that is a problem.

Am I missing something?

[Big Johnny69]

There is a basic lack of understanding of the handicap system here that is causing the guy to be deemed a cheater. Using the driver in the normal course of play is normal and if his handicap is based on that, then his handicap is valid. After all, this is how all of us play. His choosing to avoid the long clubs and scoring better on match day, is a strategy that worked for him that day, but overall, would not lead to better scores. Heck, I scored a 63 one day using only irons, but I did so because I had 12 one putts, duck hooked my 1 iron twice that hit the trees and came back in the fairway. The next game I played was a 66 (unusual but true) using the driver and fairway clubs. By your (plural) logic, I cheated when I scored 63.

If the guy is cheating then he broke a "rule" of the handicap system. Which one? The one that says you shouldn't hit your driver if there is even the remotest chance of getting into trouble? C'mon. When any one of us tries to "cut a dogleg" to shorten the hole, to give us the chance to make the "best score,(1-1 RCGA Handicap Manual) we are "playing the game" of risk reward, like every other golfer, Tour pro or otherwise does, which makes it so much more fun. Your logic says that golfers should play ULTRA conservatively, no gambling, play to the safest part of every fairway/green/rough, to make the best score possible. Talk about being contrary to the "spirit of the game."

Join us again some Saturday morning and play 5 iron as your longest club. Oh, and we will play $100 skins. Are you game? Let's see, "christain" 325 yards, "sphere hunter" 290 yards, "BC Mist" 250 yards, (I play the whites 'cause I am over 60) "Geoff" 185 yards. How about $200 a hole?

Would love to hear Gary Hill's opinion about all of this.

I'm not saying that all. When I was a member at MC I played all my non-competitive rounds the same way I played my competitive/tournament rounds. And everytime out I tried to score my best. Especially in match play, I played every hole the way I would regardless of the circumstances. So I believe my index was a true reflection of my skill level.

So you're telling me you'd be ok with playing matches against someone, who when you play your regular rounds with them hit woods off of every tee (except par 3s unless they're long enough ) and constantly puts his tee shots in the trees, ob, in hazards. His index balloons up to 20. So you, being the scratch golfer you are has to give him 20 shots. Come game day he never hits one wood off any tee, and he's not a bad iron player so he soundly beats you. You say you want a rematch in a few weeks, you play your regular rounds and he's hitting woods off the tees again and still sprays them everywhere and his cap goes up even more. But lo and behold come match day, the woods mysteriously disappear again and he soundly beats you again. Is he actually trying to score his best during those regular rounds???? If he percieves it as his best chance to score well is to take a driver on a certain hole during a regular round, I'd expect him to do the same come competition time. And belive me I've seen it. I've played with guys who can't hit a wood straight if they were allowed to throw it, but they're not that bad of an iron player. And they would definately score much better playing irons only. And if they did every round I wouldn't have a problem with it.

OK, so he's not cheating, he's manipulating the system then.

And I never said I could beat you in a match using irons only, I just stated that I could shoot as well as some of my best rounds (at my course, course knowledge is huge you know) with irons only.

This could go back and forth until we're blue in the face, some believe its not right, others think its ok. I personally don't agree with it.

[BC MIST]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, but how is this any different from if the guy were to play all of his games left handed and establishes himself as a 20+ handicapp then goes and plays his matches right handed and plays to a 15? I know you are not allowed to have 2 separate index's.....

I don't think anybody is saying that he 'cheated' per say, (at least I don't think he is) but I do feel that if he can play better without playing his driver then his handicapp (which should be an indication of his best level of play) is not correct. To me that is a problem.

Decision 1-1/1

Q. A player has an RCGA Handicap Factor of 2.6 playing right handed and a factor of 29.3 playing left handed. Is this permissible?

A. NO. An RCGA Handicap factor is based on the best play for every round. Accordingly, the RCGA Handicap factor of 29.3 MUST be withdrawn.

[BC MIST]

When I was a member at MC I played all my non-competitive rounds the same way I played my competitive/tournament rounds. And everytime out I tried to score my best. Especially in match play, I played every hole the way I would regardless of the circumstances. So I believe my index was a true reflection of my skill level.

The strategy that you use to play your game to score your best is your choice and I have no doubt that your factor was a true measure of your golfing potential. Now, if you used only a 5 iron off of every tee as your strategy, would your factor represent your true potential, if potential is considered what you would score if you played your best golf? Obviously, giving up 60 to 80 yards on every non par 3 hole is hugely disadvantageous and your factor would NOT reflect what you are capable of scoring. If you established your factor hitting 5 iron and then played a match against me using the driver, you would be cheating, and as chairman of the Handicap Committee, I would see to it that your handicap would be withdrawn.

The golfer in question established his factor by using his driver because IF he makes the fairway or even the rough, he is going to establish a factor that reflects his true scoring potential. What you guys are saying is that if he played 5 iron off of the tee that he would CONSISTENTLY score lower than if he used his driver and that this would reflect his true scoring potential.This just NOT true. Why do you allow yourself to use your driver to establish your potential, but you don't want the golfer in question to do the same. My point, which no-one wishes to acknowledge as being true, is that over a large number of games, playing shorter clubs, losing up to 80 yards in distance, will increase scores, not reduce them, and until this is considered, the guy is seen as a cheater.

Assuming that a golfer is an atrocious driver, but a reasonable iron player is a bit far fetched too, as a bad swing is a bad swing, regardless of what club is being used. And to also assume that by not hitting any woods that he is going to soundly beat me is also wrong. The RCGA recommends that in singles, match play, that the full difference in handicap strokes be given. From my experience the higher the number of strokes given, the greater is the chance of the higher handicap player winning the match. And it is not because of his strategy of using an iron off the tee, but because his "margin for improvement," far exceeds mine. It is a lot easier for the "bogey" golfer, (20 handicap - RCGA definition) to improve 5 strokes below his factor than it is for me to do the same. It is for this reason and the fact that I believe many golfers have inflated factors (some deliberately, some out of ignorance) that I avoid handicap events.

You are certainly justified in having the opinion that the golfer in question is cheating or manipulating the system, IF you continue to believe that using shorter clubs CONSISTENTLY results in lower scores. I don't. You do. So be it.

[LobWedge]

The strategy that you use to play your game to score your best is your choice and I have no doubt that your factor was a true measure of your golfing potential. Now, if you used only a 5 iron off of every tee as your strategy, would your factor represent your true potential, if potential is considered what you would score if you played your best golf? Obviously, giving up 60 to 80 yards on every non par 3 hole is hugely disadvantageous and your factor would NOT reflect what you are capable of scoring. If you established your factor hitting 5 iron and then played a match against me using the driver, you would be cheating, and as chairman of the Handicap Committee, I would see to it that your handicap would be withdrawn.

The golfer in question established his factor by using his driver because IF he makes the fairway or even the rough, he is going to establish a factor that reflects his true scoring potential. What you guys are saying is that if he played 5 iron off of the tee that he would CONSISTENTLY score lower than if he used his driver and that this would reflect his true scoring potential.This just NOT true. Why do you allow yourself to use your driver to establish your potential, but you don't want the golfer in question to do the same. My point, which no-one wishes to acknowledge as being true, is that over a large number of games, playing shorter clubs, losing up to 80 yards in distance, will increase scores, not reduce them, and until this is considered, the guy is seen as a cheater.

Assuming that a golfer is an atrocious driver, but a reasonable iron player is a bit far fetched too, as a bad swing is a bad swing, regardless of what club is being used. And to also assume that by not hitting any woods that he is going to soundly beat me is also wrong. The RCGA recommends that in singles, match play, that the full difference in handicap strokes be given. From my experience the higher the number of strokes given, the greater is the chance of the higher handicap player winning the match. And it is not because of his strategy of using an iron off the tee, but because his "margin for improvement," far exceeds mine. It is a lot easier for the "bogey" golfer, (20 handicap - RCGA definition) to improve 5 strokes below his factor than it is for me to do the same. It is for this reason and the fact that I believe many golfers have inflated factors (some deliberately, some out of ignorance) that I avoid handicap events.

You are certainly justified in having the opinion that the golfer in question is cheating or manipulating the system, IF you continue to believe that using shorter clubs CONSISTENTLY results in lower scores. I don't. You do. So be it.

I certainly never said at any time that using shorter clubs consistently leads to lower scores. I do however believe that using shorter clubs leads to more controllable scores that are much less prone to highs and lows. Establishing a handicap while playing a "normal" setup makes your handicap follow a certain statistical curve where the scores will almost always fall in line with the type of play you employ. Switching then to shorter clubs mainly for competition allows you to flatten that curve, and take advantage of the system. You may not score lower, but you lower your chances of scoring higher as well, gaining the advantage of a greater likelyhood that your ball will end up in a more playable position. In match play you only have to make one fewer stroke than your opponent to win a hole.

2 examples that come to mind are Tiger Woods and JM Olazabal. If Tiger senses he's having a bad day with the driver, he will switch to the 3 wood, or the 2 iron. He's protecting against making a big number. Back in the 90's Olazabal was a horrible driver and when he won at Firestone in the World Series, he abandoned his driver and hit 1 iron all week. He won going away. That's all well and good if you're playing even up with no handicaps. But when you have an 18 stroke cushion to lean on as well... One stroke per hole is the difference between shooting 72 and shooting 90.

[BC MIST]

I certainly never said at any time that using shorter clubs consistently leads to lower scores. I do however believe that using shorter clubs leads to more controllable scores that are much less prone to highs and lows. Establishing a handicap while playing a "normal" setup makes your handicap follow a certain statistical curve where the scores will almost always fall in line with the type of play you employ. Switching then to shorter clubs mainly for competition allows you to flatten that curve, and take advantage of the system. You may not score lower, but you lower your chances of scoring higher as well, gaining the advantage of a greater likelyhood that your ball will end up in a more playable position. In match play you only have to make one fewer stroke than your opponent to win a hole.

I agree with you in that there will be two "curves" or ranges of scores established, one using the driver where the range of scores will be greater and one using the 5 iron where the range will be smaller. However, when the golfer is "on" with the driver he will score lower than when he is "on" with the 5 iron. I keep using 5 iron because that is the club that SH mentioned in his initial post. Whether he is "off" with the driver or "off" with the 5 iron, does not matter, as these scores will not count anyway.

So the real question is, what would the average differential be using driver when "on" versus 5 iron when "on," for the best 10 of the last 20 games? That answer depends on the punitive nature of the course being played. If it is a wide open course then the driver wopuld easily have the lower average and probably by a very wide margin. On a short, tight course like the Canadian or Carleton, the gap would be less with the 5 iron. However, if a 3 wood was used off the tee on the short, tight courses, instead of the 5 iron, the gap would be closer.

[LobWedge]

I agree with you in that there will be two "curves" or ranges of scores established, one using the driver where the range of scores will be greater and one using the 5 iron where the range will be smaller. However, when the golfer is "on" with the driver he will score lower than when he is "on" with the 5 iron. I keep using 5 iron because that is the club that SH mentioned in his initial post. Whether he is "off" with the driver or "off" with the 5 iron, does not matter, as these scores will not count anyway.

So the real question is, what would the average differential be using driver when "on" versus 5 iron when "on," for the best 10 of the last 20 games? That answer depends on the punitive nature of the course being played. If it is a wide open course then the driver wopuld easily have the lower average and probably by a very wide margin. On a short, tight course like the Canadian or Carleton, the gap would be less with the 5 iron. However, if a 3 wood was used off the tee on the short, tight courses, instead of the 5 iron, the gap would be closer.

Yeah, but I bet it's pretty rare that a 22-ish capper is "on" with the driver.

[nice_lag]

Sure am happy that I didn't join in on this debate. The answer, although unpopular amongst most of you is fairly simple. As BC Mist has stated, the guy didn't cheat. He might not be very popular amongst his peers, but according to the Handicap Manual, he didn't "cheat". He just played a more prudent game during his Match Play. Remember that his option could have turned disastrous as well. And then, no one would complain because he wouldn't have won. As the head of my Handicap Committee, I might have a chat with him because "on paper" it might look suspicious. But remember that the handicap system also annotates tournament rounds and calculates a differential. So life goes on...

Some of us have read the rules guide. I urge those same people to read the handicap manual and maybe attend the seminar as well. It only lasts a day but gives you a good idea of what it's all about. And while you're at it, inquire about the rating "course". That's also fun to do.

[BC MIST]

As the head of my Handicap Committee, I might have a chat with him because "on paper" it might look suspicious. But remember that the handicap system also annotates tournament rounds and calculates a differential.

As chairman of your Handicap Committee what procedures do you follow in dealing with those who fail to post or manipulate their scores?

What our newly formed committee will likely do is talk to the player first. Then, if the problem persists, enter differentials equal to the lowest on recored, modify, then withdraw the players handicap factor, in that order.

If you do something like this, what kind of reactions have you had from those who have been approached?

[mpare]

I have read this thread with some amusement. I'm with you, BC MIST. This guy isn't cheating. He's simply using a conservative strategy on some holes while playing a tournament match. Let me offer up this simple rebuttal. If he's cheating by using his irons off the tee in the match, then presumably one could force a solution. What is that solution? For those who say he's cheating, then the only way in which he could seen as playing by your rules is for him to use a driver off the tee during the match. But surely no one is suggesting that he is forced to hit his driver off the tee and that, in this regard, his choice of club is dictated by the Rules of Golf and the clubs that he would normally use during a "regular" round. Show me that rule. Better yet, show me how you would enforce it. Conversely, for those who say that this fellow is a cheater, you must believe that the rules dictate that everyone must play conservatively during one’s normal rounds in order to establish an appropriate handicap. I know of no such rule.

The false premise that lies at the heart of this argument is that there must be a correspondence or symmetry between how one plays regular rounds and how one plays tournament rounds. Only then, you would argue, could it be said that one's handicap is a true reflection of how one actual plays. There is nothing in the Rules of Golf that requires such an approach.

[ironmaster15213]

I don't know how a person can get away with shooting under his index for tournaments too many times in a row, All you have to do is look at his handicap card and check his tournament rounds. I thought that tournament rounds were weighed a little more heavily towards your index but I may be mistaken. But even so his scores for his tournaments are right there for anybody to examine if they're always lower than his index they have got to pull down on the index number eventually.

[Golfbum]

I don't know how a person can get away with shooting under his index for tournaments too many times in a row, All you have to do is look at his handicap card and check his tournament rounds. I thought that tournament rounds were weighed a little more heavily towards your index but I may be mistaken. But even so his scores for his tournaments are right there for anybody to examine if they're always lower than his index they have got to pull down on the index number eventually.

If he does not put his "Irons Only Scores" in the computer then he is a SANDBAGGER.
Sorry, I am not saying he is a "CHEATER" I am saying he is a SANDBAGGER. He knows what he is doing, he knows all too well that by hitting driver off the tee he will spray the ball and not score as well.
So he posts those higher scores, jacks his index up and then goes out and plays Irons only and wins a match. Did he cheat? NO, but IMO he sure did a great job of Sandbagging his opponent.
I have no use for guys like him. There was a member at my course who would be cruising along in his round and go double double triple to finish his round. Post the score (his index allowed triples) and keep his index high. Then when it counted, he would usually make no worse than a boogie on any of the final three holes. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Can you smell a S A N D B A G G E R?

Some guys will do anything it takes to win an event. Pathetic really.

[bbad]

If he does not put his "Irons Only Scores" in the computer then he is a SANDBAGGER.
Sorry, I am not saying he is a "CHEATER" I am saying he is a SANDBAGGER. He knows what he is doing, he knows all too well that by hitting driver off the tee he will spray the ball and not score as well.
So he posts those higher scores, jacks his index up and then goes out and plays Irons only and wins a match. Did he cheat? NO, but IMO he sure did a great job of Sandbagging his opponent.
I have no use for guys like him. There was a member at my course who would be cruising along in his round and go double double triple to finish his round. Post the score (his index allowed triples) and keep his index high. Then when it counted, he would usually make no worse than a boogie on any of the final three holes. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Can you smell a S A N D B A G G E R?

Some guys will do anything it takes to win an event. Pathetic really.

I agree 100%

[BC MIST]

If he does not put his "Irons Only Scores" in the computer then he is a SANDBAGGER.
Sorry, I am not saying he is a "CHEATER" I am saying he is a SANDBAGGER. He knows what he is doing, he knows all too well that by hitting driver off the tee he will spray the ball and not score as well.
So he posts those higher scores, jacks his index up and then goes out and plays Irons only and wins a match. Did he cheat? NO, but IMO he sure did a great job of Sandbagging his opponent.
I have no use for guys like him. There was a member at my course who would be cruising along in his round and go double double triple to finish his round. Post the score (his index allowed triples) and keep his index high. Then when it counted, he would usually make no worse than a boogie on any of the final three holes. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Can you smell a S A N D B A G G E R?

Some guys will do anything it takes to win an event. Pathetic really.

What I don't understand from your post is that you DO NOT EQUATE a "cheater" with a "sandbagger." They are the same.

While failing to post his irons only score, he is a cheater, not a sandbagger. If he DELIBERATELY manipulates his scoring to be able to post higher scores, he is a cheater. If he deliberately does NOT line up putts to score higher, he is a cheater. IMO, there is no such thing as a sandbagger, only cheaters.

Calling someone a sandbagger, means that his handicap is higher than what it should be, so he has manipulated his scoring. That's cheating. Call a spade a spade.

With an active and assertive Handicap Committee nailing one cheater should eliminate others at the same time, AND, make the committee very popular with the balance of the members who abhor these creeps.

[mpare]

Just to be clear, in my letter I made the assumption that the golfer puts in all of his scores in accordance with the requirements of the handicapping system. If he does that, then I say there is no cheating going on. However, like BC MIST, I too have no patience with those individuals who cheat by not posting their scores in accordance with the handicapping rules.

[nice_lag]

As chairman of your Handicap Committee what procedures do you follow in dealing with those who fail to post or manipulate their scores?

What our newly formed committee will likely do is talk to the player first. Then, if the problem persists, enter differentials equal to the lowest on recored, modify, then withdraw the players handicap factor, in that order.

If you do something like this, what kind of reactions have you had from those who have been approached?

I believe that approaching the player tactfully is the first step in any situation. A nice open talk will normally do the trick. If the committee then firmly believes that there's a "manipulation" of the scores, a formal letter will be given to the member describing the actions which will be taken by the committee (would put emphasis on the tournament scores recorded). The player's handicap would then be temporarily modified for an "observation period". During such period, the player's scores are monitored more closely. Hopefully by then, things are resolved. No one wants to withdraw a handicap factor.

I think that the process explained during the seminar works really good. I put the emphasis on tact, opennes and honesty. It does the trick. We've had 2 players in such a situation: one "didn't know" the handicap rules. It was therefore quickly resolved. With our second case, the player's handicap was lowered by 25% (from 20 to 15) and by then end of the season, his handicap had settled at 16.

[Golfbum]

What I don't understand from your post is that you DO NOT EQUATE a "cheater" with a "sandbagger." They are the same.

While failing to post his irons only score, he is a cheater, not a sandbagger. If he DELIBERATELY manipulates his scoring to be able to post higher scores, he is a cheater. If he deliberately does NOT line up putts to score higher, he is a cheater. IMO, there is no such thing as a sandbagger, only cheaters.

Calling someone a sandbagger, means that his handicap is higher than what it should be, so he has manipulated his scoring. That's cheating. Call a spade a spade.

With an active and assertive Handicap Committee nailing one cheater should eliminate others at the same time, AND, make the committee very popular with the balance of the members who abhor these creeps.

I know he is a cheater, you know he is a cheater. He doesn't know he is a cheater. I am just trying to be nice by calling him a Sandbagger and not a cheater!

[BC MIST]

I know he is a cheater, you know he is a cheater. He doesn't know he is a cheater. I am just trying to be nice by calling him a Sandbagger and not a cheater!

My comments were curt but not directed at you personally. I would guess that this person knows he is a cheater, but as you know, there a few golfers around with no conscience and who derive some pleasure when they put "winning" a net prize above integrity.

The word Sandbagger is seen by some as a polite/nice way of describing someone who cheats others out of prizes that they may deserve and perhaps a cowardly way of avoiding a confrontation by not calling them what they are. The more "sandbagging" that is let go, the more others may feel they have to sandbag to level the playing field. It is a cancer that spreads if not contained right away.

If someone is bound and determined to cheat on their handicap, they can find a way, as there is no referee for each round played. However, with a strong Handicap Committee, people who are willing to call a spade a spade, and are willing to follow the required RCGA procedures, there are ways to put the cheaters in their place. Making one enemy is tough but making 50 or more friends, more than balances things out.

I know golf is meant to be fun, but it's a lot more fun for everyone when we are all playing the game and establishing handicaps, by the same set of rules.

[Golfbum]

The problem we have at my home course is this---------- If you play a round of golf you are expected to enter your score for handicapping. This handicap or index is used when Club Scrambles are set up, so we have a single digit, then a 10, a 15 and possibly a 20+ on each team. This helps even out the field.
Then we use indexes for other club events and Club Championships, Match Play etc.
Everyone who is a member KNOWS they must have a legit index. They KNOW they are supposed to post scores from our course, and other courses that are listed on TeeOn for handicap purposes.
But somehow it just doesn't happen for some guys.
I had a dispute to settle during Match Play a couple of years ago. A +2 had to play a so called -10 in a match. Now the +2 had to give up 8 strokes according to the rules. Problem was that the guy with the -10 index did not have enough scores from that year to justify that handicap. I raised this issue with the Club Management, but was told not to make waves and to let the guy play. I told the guy from now on enter your scores. I got the excuse "I only play 9 holes and the system no longer allows 9 hole scores to be entered"
Good thing the +2 won the match.
There is no Handicap Committee at my course. There should be but there isn't. So it is up to all members to make sure their playing partners enter correct scores into the computer. Again, that just doesn't happen.
Is there anyway around this? I am sure there is, but it would take full co-operation from the members and management to make it happen.
It truly is sad that someone has to fudge their index so they can win a mickey mouse tournament prize.

[jonf]

Just curious. What would someone who only plays 9 holes be expected to do if the handicapping system doesn't allow for entering 18 hole scores? Surely they can't add two nines and call it an 18. That would be cheating too. Assuming that player was telling the truth, what should they have done to establish their proper handicap?