Is this Cheating?

[Sphere Hunter]

Curious on your opinions:

I played a match several years ago in the club match play final. The guy I played was a higher handicap than I was and I was forced to give him 18 shots which was the difference between our caps. I played with him regularly at the Canadian and he hit his driver almost every hole and, in so doing, wasted lots of shots and built a huge handicap. When we play the match, he hits his 5 or 7 iron off the tee on almost every hole, stays out of trouble, and whups me (with the strokes).

He changed his game playing safer and thus lowered his score. The problem is he established his cap hitting it all over the place with his driver. I feel like this is cheating and I wondered what others might think. This guy thinks he is a great match player because of his rep for winning handicapped matches. I feel the only reason for this success is that he wastes strokes during his regular games and plays a different game in matches.

Is this cheating?

[Pinshark]

This sounds like an extreme but I know for sure I will play a hole differently based on what is happening in my match. ie. A reachable par 5 but narrow landing with my driver if I am up I will lay up and go for the easy 3 shots to the green but same hole being down in same match I would go for it all the time. If I am playing this same par 5 in a regular round for nothing I would almost always use my driver ...its more fun.

[leftylucas]

It is not really cheating (very grey) because his good round will eventually lower his handicap if he continues to do this but it does fall squarely into the grey area of ethical play. He also may have discovered the error of his ways and avowed to stay away from the driver. Some days I see my driver swing and leave it in the bag. You never know. If you know that is what he is doing then I would not play him by cap only. Give him strokes on those holes where he will use the big dog.

[Golfbum]

There is a word for guys like that. SANDBAGGER.
No other way of putting it politely. Guys like that should not be allowed to play club events. However there is no way of stopping them. I can just about guarantee you that he did not put that low score in for his indexing.
Is it cheating? NO but it is called a CLASS A SANDBAGGER.
You are not alone, it happens at my club too.

[bbad]

I'd say this is one for the handicap committee to look into.

Personally, if the person wants to cheat himself there's really not much that you can do. By the rules, I would think that it's allowed but at the same time, I'd say it breaks the spirit in which the handicap was meant to serve.

Apparently the concept of integrity is lost on this person. His loss. It's also unfortunate that other people have to pay the price for it.

[Sphere Hunter]

He doesn't do this intentionally. He thinks he is just playing "smart" in his matches. I see it as a form of cheating although that is a very strong word. I use it for lack of something more appropriate.

No matter how many times I have discussed it with him, he just can't see how this is unethical. He just thinks he is playing smarter because he is a pressure player. Give me a break!

This is one of the reasons why I hate playing in handicapped match play events.

[spackler]

If he knows he plays better when he plays smart, and is able to make a conscious decision to do so, then he should consider his 'driver' rounds to be practice rounds and not enter them into the handicap system.

[Sphere Hunter]

If he knows he plays better when he plays smart, and is able to make a conscious decision to do so, then he should consider his 'driver' rounds to be practice rounds and not enter them into the handicap system.

I know that, and you know that, but trying to get through to him is like trying to tell a divot to replace itself.

SH

[Kilroy]

The guy just needs a driver he can hit if he has the game to clean up by hitting irons off the tee.
Of course it could be intentional, but does playing most of your golf with a driver you spray all over the place and posting high scores sound like it's worth it in order to "win" a handfull of events? You'd have to be a real 'bagger to do that day in and day out, but it is possible.

[LobWedge]

I pulled this from section 1-1 of the RCGA Handicap Manual.


"Two basic premises underlie the RCGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review. The player and the player’s Handicap Committee have joint responsibility for adhering to these premises."

Based on this, I would say that you'd have a valid complaint.

[Kilroy]

Good find. Hard to disagree.

[BC MIST]

If he knows he plays better when he plays smart, and is able to make a conscious decision to do so, then he should consider his 'driver' rounds to be practice rounds and not enter them into the handicap system.

What the golfer above did was NOT cheating, but what you suggest that he do, IS.

To enter a score using the RCGA handicap system, there are three premises: (1) that the golfer make his best score at every hole, (2) that he posts his score for peer review. (3) that he plays by the Rules of golf. By posting his scores where he used the driver and other longer clubs, and IF he tried and played by the rules, his handicap factor would be honest and accurate. Therefore he was NOT cheating.

Secondly, it is against the rules of the handicap system to post a score where the requirement for the game is fewer than 14 clubs. Even though the golfer CHOSE NOT play with the driver, he could have, and so his score(s) is valid and must be posted.

Thirdly, while he may be a wild driver and incur several penalty strokes in a round, ESC, Equitable Stroke Control, would limit him to a double bogey or a triple bogey on those bad holes.

Where this golfer"s strategy works best is on a short course where long drives are not required. Put this golfer on a 6800+ yard golf course and even with greater accuracy, he would get demolished. My personal best score was earned using only irons, but the course was short and was a course where accuracy was paramount. Playing only irons at Eagle Creek or Rideau View from the back, and the score would have been much higher.

Similar to SH's scenario, against the rules and would inflate the handicap factor, are those golfers who play very quickly, and save time by NOT lining up their putts or chips shots. By doing so, the scores would obviously be higher, but they also POST these scores. Then, in a match, they line everything up, score lower than average and usually win. Subtle, sneaky cheating, but cheating none the less.

[BC MIST]

"Two basic premises underlie the [/I][/B][/SIZE][/FONT]RCGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for [I]peer review[B]. Based on this, I would say that you'd have a valid complaint.[/LEFT]

I disagree. With this logic and if SH's opponent had a 150 yard carry over water AND a bailout area to the left, that he should chip to the bailout area, chip on and putt out, rather than risking a penalty by playing over the water. It also means that every one of us should NOT use a driver, but a 3 wood or a hybrid instead, as they are more accurate, again rather than risk the penalties that MAY occur by using the more difficult to hit driver.

Part of golf is "risk/reward," regardless of current level of play. Using a driver on a tight hole is MY CHOICE and does not contravene the premise. I am trying hard to hit the ball straight and in play. In my post above, if the golfer does NOT line up his putts, then he is NOT trying to achieve the best score possible and that score should not be posted.

[spackler]

He clearly knows he will score better by not playing driver, so if he plays driver is he "trying to make the best score on every hole?" I don't think so. By your logic he can hit putter off the tee and driver on the green in regular rounds and vice versa in tournaments and as long as he tries hard to make his best score with the dubious club selection, it's valid.I think there's a difference between 'trying hard' and 'trying to make the best score on every hole'.

[LobWedge]

I disagree. With this logic and if SH's opponent had a 150 yard carry over water AND a bailout area to the left, that he should chip to the bailout area, chip on and putt out, rather than risking a penalty by playing over the water. It also means that every one of us should NOT use a driver, but a 3 wood or a hybrid instead, as they are more accurate, again rather than risk the penalties that MAY occur by using the more difficult to hit driver.

Part of golf is "risk/reward," regardless of current level of play. Using a driver on a tight hole is MY CHOICE and does not contravene the premise. I am trying hard to hit the ball straight and in play. In my post above, if the golfer does NOT line up his putts, then he is NOT trying to achieve the best score possible and that score should not be posted.

I completely agree that this individual was not cheating within the boundaries of the rules of play, but to completely abandon the style of play that you use to establish your handicap, your playing credentials that are used to compare you fairly in competition aganst your peers, when it comes time to actually compete, IMO constitutes a violation of the spirit of the game. That is an issue for the handicap committee to decide.

[jonf]

I don't think its cheating. I don't necessarily think there's anything dishonourable about it, either. It depends on his thought process. I know that when I play, I hit my driver whenever the hole allows, because its the only way I will improve. However, I think if I was playing in an event, I might think differently. I would probably make the safe play most of the time, and let my opponent make mistakes, rather than making them myself. Its not bad sportmanship, its good strategy.

[LobWedge]

I don't think its cheating. I don't necessarily think there's anything dishonourable about it, either. It depends on his thought process. I know that when I play, I hit my driver whenever the hole allows, because its the only way I will improve. However, I think if I was playing in an event, I might think differently. I would probably make the safe play most of the time, and let my opponent make mistakes, rather than making them myself. Its not bad sportmanship, its good strategy.

No, the only thought process involved is how to maximize his "bang for the buck" by playing the system to gain a skewed handicap advantage.

If you hit your driver when the hole allows that's all well and good. But if you hit driver because you think it's the only way you will improve, then you really aren't playing a handicap round, you are playing a practice round, and that score should not be entered. That's also why golf courses have practice ranges.

If you are playing and thinking differently when playing an event than you do on the course the rest of the time, and now thinking your way around the course and playing within your abilities, then your handicap is likely artificially high and is not an accurate representation of your actual skill level. Hence the phrase that applies to posting a valid handicap, "each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round", and not just in competitive rounds.

[bbad]

Okay is this fair?

Say that I am a 5 handicap but I feel that in competition that I can't hit my driver very well so I refuse to use it. I establish my handicap (which the rules say I must do) with my driver though (to try and get better) and my handicap ballons up to a 10 (even with ESC). In addition, I can hit my 3 wood almost as far as my driver and hit it straight, so I could play "conservatively" and still be competitive.

Now I have to play you for a match and say that according to the computer my handicap is a 10. I then go out and shoot a 75 not using the driver (which according to the computer I shouldn't be able to do in competition). Are you going to feel that I cheated?

The real issue is according to his handicap, he shouldn't be able to shoot the score that he is, so the handicap committee should then be getting involved to see what the issue is. What is the odd of a 10 shooting a 75 in competition. 1000-1?

Once I can understand, but for the match play ladder he does this every round, c'mon. Where do you draw the line?


IMHO.

[Kilroy]

I thought the discussion was about a player who gets 18 strokes as a diiferential in this match. That means he plays to 20+ not 5. A 20 gets tripples as ESC. Throw a few in the bush, re-tee, play for a bogey with the second ball. Take your 7 for the par 4 and keep your cap high.

[bbad]

you're right. I lost track of the original situation, but it really doesn't change the end result of this. My intent was to demonstrate that when the person plays better than his handicap the HC should be looking into it.

Sorry

[jonf]

No, the only thought process involved is how to maximize his "bang for the buck" by playing the system to gain a skewed handicap advantage.

If you hit your driver when the hole allows that's all well and good. But if you hit driver because you think it's the only way you will improve, then you really aren't playing a handicap round, you are playing a practice round, and that score should not be entered. That's also why golf courses have practice ranges.

If you are playing and thinking differently when playing an event than you do on the course the rest of the time, and now thinking your way around the course and playing within your abilities, then your handicap is likely artificially high and is not an accurate representation of your actual skill level. Hence the phrase that applies to posting a valid handicap, "each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round", and not just in competitive rounds.

Well, the goal in match play is different now, isn't it.

If I'm playing stroke play, on most individual holes, it is best for me to get as close to the green as possible, as that leaves me with the easiest finish to the hole. I could tee up a 5 iron, but at that point my best possible score (given my inability to one-putt) is likely to be a bogey, whereas, with a driver, it is a par. So, trying to get the best possible score would mean teeing up a driver (unless I knew that I was going to slice it out of play...and even then, its debateable)

In match play, however, I am not trying to score the lowest possible score. I am simply trying to beat my opponent. I can take out my 5 iron and go for a bogey which, given handicaps, is actually equivalent to a par (because I get a stroke a hole). I hit the five, and hope for my partner to par, or to make a mistake and bogey.

Trying to neutralize your weak points is the key to all sporting competition. In football, a bad defence tries to keep the ball in the hands of their offence. In hockey, a team with a bad penalty kill does their best to stay out of the box, etc etc etc. I don't see why it should be different in golf.

[Kilroy]

My intent was to demonstrate that when the person plays better than his handicap the HC should be looking into it.

Sorry

No doubt. Just looking at all sides.

[LobWedge]

Well, the goal in match play is different now, isn't it.

If I'm playing stroke play, on most individual holes, it is best for me to get as close to the green as possible, as that leaves me with the easiest finish to the hole. I could tee up a 5 iron, but at that point my best possible score (given my inability to one-putt) is likely to be a bogey, whereas, with a driver, it is a par. So, trying to get the best possible score would mean teeing up a driver (unless I knew that I was going to slice it out of play...and even then, its debateable)

In match play, however, I am not trying to score the lowest possible score. I am simply trying to beat my opponent. I can take out my 5 iron and go for a bogey which, given handicaps, is actually equivalent to a par (because I get a stroke a hole). I hit the five, and hope for my partner to par, or to make a mistake and bogey.

Trying to neutralize your weak points is the key to all sporting competition. In football, a bad defence tries to keep the ball in the hands of their offence. In hockey, a team with a bad penalty kill does their best to stay out of the box, etc etc etc. I don't see why it should be different in golf.

You're missing the point here. This has nothing to do with match play or stroke play. This has everything to do with establishing a fair and accurate representation of a golfer's ability, and how it applies against the course. The handicap system challenges the player to try as hard as possible at all times to make sure that the number of strokes taken, or given back is fair, and that the golfer is wise enough to learn from his/her mistakes in order to accomplish that goal.

A golfer gains an unfair advantage over fellow competitors and opponents when he/she plays foolishly, carelessly, or without regard for mistakes during those rounds that establish that handicap, and then miraculously "wises up" only during competition. That, as Golfbum stated earlier, is called sandbagging.

For example, if I'm playing at Loch March, the 10th hole has a carry of about 285 yards to the 2nd fairway over the creek from the back tees. I've tried it a few times an have never made it. I now know that even on my best day I will never make that shot. I learned my lesson and now I hit 3 wood from the tee every time. It's decisions like that that go to reflecting an accurate and fair handicap. Sure, I could continue to pound balls at that creek, hoping that one will eventually make it across, but golf is not mindless like that. Golf is a game that demands that you think your way around the course, and to try on every shot, in order to establish a fair and equitable representation of your ability, so that you can compete fairly against the course and other golfers.

[jonf]

I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out the fact that, just because a player takes driver a lot, does not necessarily mean that they are not acting within the spirit of the game. There are certainly situations, such as the one you describe, where it would simply be careless to take driver, but there are also many where, thought it may not be the best decision, it is not an inherently bad one either. As I said in a previous post, it depends on the guy's intent.

[BC MIST]

A golfer gains an unfair advantage over fellow competitors and opponents when he/she plays foolishly, carelessly, or without regard for mistakes during those rounds that establish that handicap, and then miraculously "wises up" only during competition.

By this logic if I use my driver on ANY hole where there is ANY RISK of the ball ending up in the trees or water or OB, I should not be using it. ("to make the lowest score possible.") As there is this kind of trouble on virtually every hole that we play, no-one on this forum should ever use the driver. This is absurd. Sphere Hunter is a very good, low handicap golfer. He achieved his low handicap by using his driving length to his advantage, but I have also seen him hit the ball crooked and into trouble. The use of the driver is always a risk and that unknown is part of what makes the unpredictability of the shot, exciting.

The assumption that by playing his 5 or 7 iron off the tee on almost every hole, that his score will ALWAYS be, lower is also incorrect. It can happen, but it is the exception. All of you go play 10 games where your longest club used is a 5 iron and see how many times you score lower than average. Giving up 70 to 80 yards on the 4's and 5's will hurt you more often than help.

For example, if I'm playing at Loch March, the 10th hole has a carry of about 285 yards to the 2nd fairway over the creek from the back tees. I've tried it a few times an have never made it. I now know that even on my best day I will never make that shot. I learned my lesson and now I hit 3 wood from the tee every time. It's decisions like that that go to reflecting an accurate and fair handicap.

Your point here may be valid, however, is it not the same as the original of the opponent just using the driver. While there is a risk of the opponent hitting the trees/water, whatever, there is also a risk of his hitting the fairway and it is likely that he hits the fairway more often than not. Using the driver is part of the risk of the game and the Handicap System is not designed for IRONS ONLY golfers.

Proof of my last statement comes from having attended the RCGA Certification Seminar last July at the Hunt Club, given by Matt MacKay, where this very question was raised and discussed. SH's opponent, using his driver in the normal course of play and establishing a handicap from that, is 100% acceptable and is not contrary to the spirit of the game. Using irons instead of woods in any game is not contrary to anything.

Golfers whose handicaps are honest, will beat their handicap an average of ONLY 25% of the time. In looking at my own for 2006, the percentage was 22%. Golfers who win a disproportionate number of net prizes need the HC to take a close look at the player's games and modify their handicaps if they find a problem. How many clubs have a HC that will do this?

[pvs1313]

one example of this might be to look at tTiger Woods last victory at the British open.

He uses driver o almosty al his rounds on all par 4-5 holes (with the exceptioni of the very short ones). now last year he used driver ONE time in the first round of the B.O and it went wild, so he never used it again/. SHould he be punished for chosing to not play his usual wild driving game? no, he played conservative and mad sure he got the win when it counted.

that is +course, club and game management.

now I understand SH point here, and maybe his apponene tis straetching the ethics of the game, but that is how it is set up, Like BC says, if you use only 5 iron off the tee, you will find that it probably hurst more than it helsp in the end.

hey tha tis golf, everyone plays themselves in there own way.

[jeffc]

I think there is a difference between risk/reward and someone intentionally hitting driver every hole where there is no need to do so just to build a high cap. In the end, I don't see the point of playing a lot of crappy rounds just to win the odd match.

[jeffc]

one example of this might be to look at tTiger Woods last victory at the British open.

He uses driver o almosty al his rounds on all par 4-5 holes (with the exceptioni of the very short ones). now last year he used driver ONE time in the first round of the B.O and it went wild, so he never used it again/. SHould he be punished for chosing to not play his usual wild driving game? no, he played conservative and mad sure he got the win when it counted.

that is +course, club and game management.

now I understand SH point here, and maybe his apponene tis straetching the ethics of the game, but that is how it is set up, Like BC says, if you use only 5 iron off the tee, you will find that it probably hurst more than it helsp in the end.

hey tha tis golf, everyone plays themselves in there own way.

I will likely play a bit more conservative in a match since quite often, par will win the hole and sometimes bogey will as well (I am a 12 index).

There is a thing called course management, and that is fine, but he throws that out the window to establish his cap and then comes back and uses that to its fullest extent when he plays matches.

[pvs1313]

no doubt if he is doing it on purpose to increase his cap then it is unethical (sandbagger) but it is not cheating, unfortunatly,

and in this case, i beleive that SH said he was not doing it on purpsoe to increase his cap, just that it was the way it worked out.

[Sakuraba]

What I find amusing in all this, is that I am the total opposite of the player in question. I play my best rounds when alonein the evening, or matched up randomly with somebody halfway through, having a few beers. I hit my driver like a madman, and play very very quickly.

When the qualifying tournaments come up, I try to play conservatively, line up the putts, put the driver away, but shoot consistantly way above my index.