80 yards in: A grey zone???

[Elrik]

While impatiently waiting for the spring to come, I've been thinking about overall golf strategy (or my lack of it ). It occurred to me that there is a whole progression of clubs that allow us to be very specific with our yardage from 80 yards and up: sand wedge, gap wedge, pitching wedge, nine-iron, eight-iron...etc.

But what about shots eighty yards in? Sure when I'm close to the green I can chip, pitch or putt it, but from let's say 80 yards to 10 yards, should I use a sand wedge? A lob wedge? Full swing? Three-quarter swing? Half-swing? Full swing with slower tempo?

It all seems to me to be far less precise that from 80 yards up, where, when I'm "on", I know exactly what club to hit to go 130 yrds, 135yrds, etc. Is it just me or is there actually some "grey area" that modern clubs don't address, perhaps relying on actual players to develop their own "feel" for these shots. Which, if true, I find somewhat surprising given how many shots can be lost with a poor short game...

Just my $0.02...

Elrik

[jonf]

I know what you mean. The trick is to do just what you do from 80 and up. You figure out (whether on the course or at the range) what club works best @ each distance. For some people, that 60 yard shot might be a full LW, for others it might be a 3/4 SW, etc. The key is to find one combo that works for you (rather than hitting a hard LW one time, a soft SW the next, and a half GW another time). I started the year last year with a great deal of confusion from 100 in, but with some practise I got to the point where I had a pretty good idea what I needed to hit from where. Bottom line....practise practise practise.

[byerxa]

You need to learn how to reliably hit shots with 1/2 and 3/4 backswings. Then figure out how far they go with your various wedges. Even with 2 wedges you now have 4 known distances you can rely on. If you have 3 or 4 wedges you will get some overlap in distances so now you have the luxury of selecting what type of shot you want, e.g., low vs. high, releasing vs a high pitch, etc.

Practice these types of shots with other clubs as well. The pros are amazing at this. Someone like Tiger can hit a 7 iron anywheres from 120yds to 180yds quite reliably which gives him tons of options on trajectory, etc.

[jeffc]

even better, don't leave yourself these distances. Play to the 100 yd marker or whatever distance is a full club with your favourite club. I would rather hit a full GW from 100 yds than a 3/4 one from 80. It's not that tough to do most of the time - it just means hitting the right club off the tee or laying up to that spot on a par 5.

[Elrik]

That's what I've been thinking too, Jonf. And I have been able to get some sense of what to hit to reach the green more often than not. I'm just surprised that golf club manufacturers haven't done what they've done 100 yards and up - establish specific clubs with quite specific degrees of loft to make it less of a guessing / "feel".

For example, why not establish and build a 52-degree club that most players will hit 60 yards, a 54-degree one that they will hit 50 yards, a 56-degree one that they will hit 40 yards..etc...

I know that I'm being fascetious to some degree, but in an era where golf club manufacturers will try to outdo each other with varying club size, shape, MOI, COR, shaft length, loft, flex-type to enable the average player to gain an extra 10-20 yards, which, let's face it, will likely not do much to lower their score, why hasn't more been done to "standardize" the short game...

It just seems as if there's some unwritten rule that you have 2-4 wedges in your bag based on an original design from the 1930s, and it's up to you to figure out how best to hit them...

Elrik

[jonf]

Well part of the problem is that when you get into really high lofts, clubs become almost un-hittable. The traditional LW is 60 degrees, and many players have difficulty making solid contact with that. Anything higher would never find its way in to the bags of most sane amateurs. I mean, if you think about it, the only way you will hit a ball 40 yards with a full swing is if the loft is about 70 degrees, and that is just not realistic. The only other way to reduce distance is to reduce the length of the club, and for most people wedges are already about as short as is comfortable.

[byerxa]

even better, don't leave yourself these distances. Play to the 100 yd marker or whatever distance is a full club with your favourite club. I would rather hit a full GW from 100 yds than a 3/4 one from 80. It's not that tough to do most of the time - it just means hitting the right club off the tee or laying up to that spot on a par 5.

The problem is you have to be able to get up and down from anywhere within 100 yards reliably to score well. You are going to be more accurate from 60 yards than 120 simply because it is a shorter distance. It only seems that you are not because you are much more practised at hitting full shots 120 yards than 1/2 shots from 60. Sure the pros like to set yardages sometimes to get more spin, etc., but that does not apply to most of us given our skill level and the courses we play on.

[jeffc]

The problem is you have to be able to get up and down from anywhere within 100 yards reliably to score well. You are going to be more accurate from 60 yards than 120 simply because it is a shorter distance. It only seems that you are not because you are much more practised at hitting full shots 120 yards than 1/2 shots from 60. Sure the pros like to set yardages sometimes to get more spin, etc., but that does not apply to most of us given our skill level and the courses we play on.

Yes and no. You can limit the number of times you have to do hit a club from an awkward distance by laying up to a comfortable yardage. I play with people all the time that do this - that is leave themselves say 50-60 yds and then try to hit that tough 2/3 wedge.

I am much more comfortable at 100 yds than 60 and there is less chance I will chunk it hitting a full club over a partial one. I know if I swing my GW full I will hit it 100 yds. Inside of that I it's a bit hit and miss. It takes a lot of practice to know exactly how far each club goes at 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4. I know how far each full club goes and I don't have to think about it. It takes a bit factor of guessing out of the equation.

[golfin-buddy]

Wow, that's alot to think about! So many numbers!!!

Personally, I pick a trajectory and chooese the club that would make this happen best. The only true way to get this "grey zone" area is to practice it and get the experience. From experience, you aquire feel.

Depending on the flight I want and spin I want, I'll hit my 58 from 80yds to get a little more height and spin and my 50 to play a low boring release type shot. The norm for me would be to take the 54 and play a one-hop and stop type shot.

Honestly, I try not to think of yardages when I'm inside a 100. I rarely never pace it off. Make brain- work too much. See it and do it.

[Chieflongtee]

For example, why not establish and build a 52-degree club that most players will hit 60 yards, a 54-degree one that they will hit 50 yards, a 56-degree one that they will hit 40 yards..etc...

Elrik. If you do that you will end up way over the 14 club limit unless you remove long irons and fw woods..Moreover you could learn to grip down on the club for less distance.

I agree with you JeffC. First and foremost unless you have plenty of time to dedicate to practice you simply can't get the right feel for all 1/2 shots with different wedges. The best solution is to find ONE club that works well and stick with it and play it up to your favorite distance. Learn that one club in and out.

[Marcos]

I agree with Jeffc on this one, play to the yardage you are most comfotable with.
The most important part is to practice , practice, and practice some more.You will get very good at the end of the year with this shot and you will finf your score going down.It does not matter wich club you use as long as you are confident with the shot and that makes all the diff.

[Hacker]

I am currently reading Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible and I HIGHLY recommend it. Dave talks about his 3-4 theory which is basically how to achieve 3 consistent distances for each of your 4 wedges (3/4 swing, 1/2 swing and 1/4 swing) using what Dave terms the finesse swing - I'm only about 1/3 through the book but I can already tell that it is really going to help me with my short game. Well worth the purchase price IMO

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/search/ref=p...&index=blended

[jeffc]

I am currently reading Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible and I HIGHLY recommend it. Dave talks about his 3-4 theory which is basically how to achieve 3 consistent distances for each of your 4 wedges (3/4 swing, 1/2 swing and 1/4 swing) using what Dave terms the finesse swing - I'm only about 1/3 through the book but I can already tell that it is really going to help me with my short game. Well worth the purchase price IMO

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/search/ref=p...&index=blended

yup...read Dave's books. What he suggests requires a lot and I mean a lot of practice. Unless you are playing 60-70 rounds and have the time to practice all of those shots, it is a tough thing to put into place. I think he also recommends a 64 deg LW. I have trouble hitting a 60 deg LW off a tight fairway.

[byerxa]

Yes and no. You can limit the number of times you have to do hit a club from an awkward distance by laying up to a comfortable yardage. I play with people all the time that do this - that is leave themselves say 50-60 yds and then try to hit that tough 2/3 wedge.

I am much more comfortable at 100 yds than 60 and there is less chance I will chunk it hitting a full club over a partial one. I know if I swing my GW full I will hit it 100 yds. Inside of that I it's a bit hit and miss. It takes a lot of practice to know exactly how far each club goes at 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4. I know how far each full club goes and I don't have to think about it. It takes a bit factor of guessing out of the equation.

I'd argue that it takes no more practice getting 1/2 and 3/4 shots down than full shots. People like to go hit balls all the time but do not practice the short game enough (me included). It really did not take that much practice to start getting comfortable with these types of shots, and if I spend as much time on them as full shots they are as reliable.

I agree on placing the ball to places where you are most likely to succeed. Much like pool, golf is a lot about making sure your next shot is as easy as possible. But we all know that does not happen all the time hence you need a good flexible short game inside 100 yds to really get the score down consistently.

[Wknd_Warrior]

That's all gap wedge for me. a smooth 3/4 buys me about 80 yards, half swing with some snap in it around 50. Between the two can get a bit trickier tho...

I don't like pulling a sw unless I feel really confident about the distance control and want the extra spin for some reason, and have a good lie etc...

[Wknd_Warrior]

The best solution is to find ONE club that works well and stick with it and play it up to your favorite distance. Learn that one club in and out.

yeppers

[jbrace]

I know exactly what jeffc and Marcos are saying and I agree that that theory does work for some people, but I personally am in the same camp as byerxa and am a firm believer in practicing the short game. I always get a kick out of watching guys on the range pounding ball after ball with the driver or whatever, but they can't seem to get it within 10 feet from 80 yards and in because they neglect that part of their game. Anyways, the one common theme though is giving yourself a shot you are comfortable with. I know lots of guys like jeffc that would much rather have a full shot from say 80 or 100 yards than 40 or 50, and that's great if it gets the job done. For me however, 9 times out of 10 I am just as comfortable hitting a little 40 yarder as I am hitting a full gap wedge from 100 yards. The exception being if the pin is very tight to the front on a hard green with a trap to carry or something.

As for Dave Pelz, he's a short game advocate like me, but that's where the similarity ends. I just do not like his technical method of instruction. Waaaaay too much thinking going on there for me. "oops, no wonder I hit it 55 yards and not 50. I went back to 9:30 instead of 9:00! Silly me!" But hey, it works for Phil... Me, I just like to feel it. But again, you will never develope feel without practicing.

[Golftime]

While impatiently waiting for the spring to come, I've been thinking about overall golf strategy (or my lack of it ). It occurred to me that there is a whole progression of clubs that allow us to be very specific with our yardage from 80 yards and up: sand wedge, gap wedge, pitching wedge, nine-iron, eight-iron...etc.

But what about shots eighty yards in? Sure when I'm close to the green I can chip, pitch or putt it, but from let's say 80 yards to 10 yards, should I use a sand wedge? A lob wedge? Full swing? Three-quarter swing? Half-swing? Full swing with slower tempo?

It all seems to me to be far less precise that from 80 yards up, where, when I'm "on", I know exactly what club to hit to go 130 yrds, 135yrds, etc. Is it just me or is there actually some "grey area" that modern clubs don't address, perhaps relying on actual players to develop their own "feel" for these shots. Which, if true, I find somewhat surprising given how many shots can be lost with a poor short game...

Just my $0.02...

Elrik

I think that you are missing one of the great joys that golf has to offer. Developing the feel for the short game and then being able to use it on the course is where you can get a lot of fun out of the game. There is a fourteen club limit for a reason, to keep people from carrying a club for every occasion. If you had the perfect club for every occasion then the game would be reduced to learning one swing only. (plus putting) I played for several years with only seven clubs in my bag. Doing that forces you to become creative. Bobby Breen, who was the original head pro at Glen Abbey used to play an open challenge against all the members of the mens league. We played nine holes normally, he played with one club and gave prizes to anyone whose gross score beat his. He was almost always under 40 and had to pay up to only half a dozen people out of forty or fifty. The point is that he was able to score well with just the one club.
So as others have already said, practise is the key. Avoid the 'awkward' length shots as part of your course management but be prepared for them when they happen to you.

[Elrik]

What you say Golftime about "feeling the shot" really strikes a chord. When I was an absolute beginner, with no real idea as to what I was doing out there (and that may still be true! ), I used to play golf using feel and "what felt right" for each shot. Funny thing is that I couldn't hit my irons or woods very straight, but I used to hit wedge shots relatively close using an exagerated "wristy" swing. They would all be weird flop shots, but they got to the hole. And it was fun!!!

A couple of years, many a bucket and a whole bunch of lessons later, I think that I have a far more consistent, technically sound swing from 100 yrds+. This year, I've wanted to focus on the short game so that I can break 90 consistently. Being a bit of a purist at heart, I'm trying to get my wedge game technically sound, with good technique and mechanics.

I still think I'm more of a "feel" player than a technical player though. For example, I'm a fairly decent pool player and I rarely "aim" - play more out of instinct from years of playing, knowing without thinking what type of spin to apply to the cue ball, and with the confidence to play the more difficult/creative shots. I'm looking to become that kind of player: consistent and technically sound, but with a lot of creativity and a wide variety of shots. As such, I hope to become fairly good with one or two wedges, being able to adapt depending on the circumstances/lie..etc

Sometimes I miss those goofy carefree days when I just "swung away" with poor technique... and that exhiliaration when the ball magically got to the hole. But there's nothing like breaking through those barriers (100, 90...etc) due to having a decent, repeatable swing.

Elrik

[ironmaster15213]

You will always have trouble with the less than full shots if you have a strong hitting action at the top of your swing rather than an acceleration thought. To become a good short game player you have to learn different set points (how far you bring the club back) and feel different accelerations for each of those shots, that's how you will be able to swing to any yardage. My set points are clubhead to the hip,shoulder, three quarters(shaft pointing straight up to sky) and then between three quarters and full. If you can feel a slow acceleration,medium acceleration and a fast acceleration with each of these set points you can hit any yardage with different clubs.

[jeffc]

that all sounds good, but again requires A LOT of practice and playing so it is engrained. Most golfers have way too many swing thoughts going on already. I guess I am referring to the average golfer more than anything - the 10-20 handicappers. I often find golf instruction is way too technical for a lot of golfers (e.g. Golf magazines, Golf Channel) and I think there are simpler ways to improve your score, via course management, etc. Most people are not gifted enough or have enough time to practice to really put into effect a lot of these technical concepts.

Don't get me wrong, I am a feel player and can hit the 60 yard shots if need be but prefer the full shot since I know exactly how far it will go more often than if I hit the 2/3 club.

[NoBack]

even better, don't leave yourself these distances. Play to the 100 yd marker or whatever distance is a full club with your favourite club. I would rather hit a full GW from 100 yds than a 3/4 one from 80. It's not that tough to do most of the time - it just means hitting the right club off the tee or laying up to that spot on a par 5.

Jeff
good answer, thats the key right there, play to your strength.
I never try to hit it past 100 yrds in as my full shot from 100 is better than that dreaded 70 yarder (my stupid zone)

[dH]

even better, don't leave yourself these distances. Play to the 100 yd marker or whatever distance is a full club with your favourite club. I would rather hit a full GW from 100 yds than a 3/4 one from 80. It's not that tough to do most of the time - it just means hitting the right club off the tee or laying up to that spot on a par 5.

That's the ticket. I much to often am X yardage out and I know I can't make it but I just hit it as far as I can and end up in the "dead zone" It's the dead zone for me as my % of making it on the green is minimal I'm better at 8 iron out than 20-90 yards.

[jbrace]

That's the ticket. I much to often am X yardage out and I know I can't make it but I just hit it as far as I can and end up in the "dead zone" It's the dead zone for me as my % of making it on the green is minimal I'm better at 8 iron out than 20-90 yards.

We all agree on one thing and that is to play to your strengths and comfort zone, whatever that may be. That's what so fun about this game is that there is more than one way to get it done.

...But I'll still take my chances from 40 yards over a full 140 yard 8 iron anyday

Intersesting thread!

[Golftime]

What you say Golftime about "feeling the shot" really strikes a chord. When I was an absolute beginner, with no real idea as to what I was doing out there (and that may still be true! ), I used to play golf using feel and "what felt right" for each shot. Funny thing is that I couldn't hit my irons or woods very straight, but I used to hit wedge shots relatively close using an exagerated "wristy" swing. They would all be weird flop shots, but they got to the hole. And it was fun!!!

A couple of years, many a bucket and a whole bunch of lessons later, I think that I have a far more consistent, technically sound swing from 100 yrds+. This year, I've wanted to focus on the short game so that I can break 90 consistently. Being a bit of a purist at heart, I'm trying to get my wedge game technically sound, with good technique and mechanics.

I still think I'm more of a "feel" player than a technical player though. For example, I'm a fairly decent pool player and I rarely "aim" - play more out of instinct from years of playing, knowing without thinking what type of spin to apply to the cue ball, and with the confidence to play the more difficult/creative shots. I'm looking to become that kind of player: consistent and technically sound, but with a lot of creativity and a wide variety of shots. As such, I hope to become fairly good with one or two wedges, being able to adapt depending on the circumstances/lie..etc

Sometimes I miss those goofy carefree days when I just "swung away" with poor technique... and that exhiliaration when the ball magically got to the hole. But there's nothing like breaking through those barriers (100, 90...etc) due to having a decent, repeatable swing.

Elrik

I'm glad that I made you think about how and why you play the game.
Technique is very important but it should be left on the practise area, especially if you are a feel player. I agree fully with all the other comments related to course management to avoid your weak shots.
I have been going to a local indoor center lately and using a simulator. My ball striking was okay but short game sucked. I got caught up in reading the numbers on the screen for distance, elevation and break. My distance control was very poor. Finally yesterday I had an epiphany. I went back to my usual putting routine, which is: pick a line, align a target line on the ball, setup with the putter square to the target line, look at he hole for 3 or 4 seconds, look at the ball, then look at the hole again briefly, then putt. The look of the putt works far better for me than a number. The same holds true for chips and pitches. When I practise I may be thinking about how far back to take the club and how to accelerate into the ball but when I play I can't think about that much stuff so I try to let feel take over.

[rhh7]

For this upcoming season I have taken the lob wedge out of my bag. For everything 80 yards in, I will use my sand wedge. I can hit the ball as high as I need to, and make more consistent contact with the sand wedge.

I have carefully read Dave Pelz, finally concluded it was too complicated. My eyes glaze over when I start trying to swing back to 9 o'clock, ten o'clock, etc.

I just focus on the target, visualize where I want my ball to go, and hit it!

[BC MIST]

We have been around this bend before, but:
Feel is your subconscious mind's ability to have you hit a shot "80" yards, without your knowing that it is 80 yards. You just pick the wedge you want, look at your target, swing and boom, the ball flies 80 yards. Why? Because you have done it before, hundreds of times. This is why you practice and you practice these shots for two reasons. 1. to develop sound technique which creates solid contact, every time. 2. to judge distance.

This may sound too simple to some. The Dave Pelz of the world will have you take the club back to 9 o'clock to hit the ball 50 yards, 10:30 to go 60 yards and 12:00 to go 70 yards. Firstly, how do you know if you have taken it back to 9 or 10:30 or 12? You don't. Secondly, this focuses your mind on how far you are taking it back and not on just swinging the club, WITHOUT consciously thinking about how or how far.

What ELRIK says here, I'm a fairly decent pool player and I rarely "aim" - play more out of instinct from years of playing, knowing without thinking what type of spin to apply to the cue ball, and with the confidence to play the more difficult/creative shots. is the key. He does not THINK about what he is doing, he just "aims and fires," because he has done it so many times before. It is like tying your shoes or brushing your teeth. It is done SUNCONSCIOUSLY.

So, work on technique for its own sake. Then drop balls anywhere from 1 to 80 yards and just hit them to a target, and in time, your ability to judge distance will be AUTOMATIC, unless you start thinking about it.

[byerxa]

This may sound too simple to some. The Dave Pelz of the world will have you take the club back to 9 o'clock to hit the ball 50 yards, 10:30 to go 60 yards and 12:00 to go 70 yards. Firstly, how do you know if you have taken it back to 9 or 10:30 or 12? You don't. Secondly, this focuses your mind on how far you are taking it back and not on just swinging the club, WITHOUT consciously thinking about how or how far.

What Pelz proposes is a structured way to get to this point. The idea is to go and figure out exactly how far you hit the ball with 7, 9, and 10 o'clock back swings and a full follow through using a "dead hands" swing. Then write these values down on the club for reference. Its no different than knowing my full 7 iron typically goes 150. How do you know your back swing is at these various positions? Get some video of yourself so you can properly calibrate your feel to what you are actually doing. Then practice. Like any other shot it will become 2nd nature and you do not have to think about it. Pelz noted that when working with pros they would get to the point where they could tell to within a yard distance-wise where a shot would land because they had calibrated their "feel" accordingly. By removing the guess work you know what will happen and you do not have to think about it.

At the end of the day how you get to this point is a matter of what works for the individual. But I will argue that you need to be able to get close from anywhere inside of 100yds to score consistently. The concept of a "grey zone" in that range will simply hinder someone from consistently in the 70s (or better).

[Rapture Man]

I am currently reading Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible and I HIGHLY recommend it. Dave talks about his 3-4 theory which is basically how to achieve 3 consistent distances for each of your 4 wedges (3/4 swing, 1/2 swing and 1/4 swing) using what Dave terms the finesse swing - I'm only about 1/3 through the book but I can already tell that it is really going to help me with my short game. Well worth the purchase price IMO

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/search/ref=p...&index=blended

I swear by Dave Pelz's approach. My Short Game Bible is worn out, especially the critical middle chapters which I read religiously about this time of year, although I have ingrained his approach so well that I merely keep practicing my three distances for my four wedges and can almost swear by the 12 distances I get under 100 yards. My friend laughs at me when I tell him that I am at roughly a 7:30 52 deg. wedge from the pin. But he stops laughing when I almost sink it 7 to 8 times out of 10. The Pelz approach really works if you want to put the practice in and I invite you to look at the list of pros that have either considered, adopted or still endorse the approach. It has worked for me and certainly has helped take the guesswork out of those odd distances inside 100yds. Pelz also provides good solid approaches to deal with trouble shots and bunkers within 100yds. My handicap went an average of 10 strokes using this system. It is also a more reliable way to help those of us that play only on weekends and cannot depend solely on feel.

[grumpyfrank]

While impatiently waiting for the spring to come, I've been thinking about overall golf strategy (or my lack of it ). It occurred to me that there is a whole progression of clubs that allow us to be very specific with our yardage from 80 yards and up: sand wedge, gap wedge, pitching wedge, nine-iron, eight-iron...etc.

But what about shots eighty yards in? Sure when I'm close to the green I can chip, pitch or putt it, but from let's say 80 yards to 10 yards, should I use a sand wedge? A lob wedge? Full swing? Three-quarter swing? Half-swing? Full swing with slower tempo?

It all seems to me to be far less precise that from 80 yards up, where, when I'm "on", I know exactly what club to hit to go 130 yrds, 135yrds, etc. Is it just me or is there actually some "grey area" that modern clubs don't address, perhaps relying on actual players to develop their own "feel" for these shots. Which, if true, I find somewhat surprising given how many shots can be lost with a poor short game...

Just my $0.02...

Elrik

May I suggest you try Canadian Club with a splash when you are within 80 yards. If you are not successful you don't give a damn.
The Prince