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  1. #31
    Practice Pig ironmaster15213 is on a distinguished road ironmaster15213's Avatar
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    I'll take my chances but the funny thing is it doesn't effect me since my handicap is above 0 now, both systems say I can only take a double bogie on any hole. But I digress....Just look at the 2 systems side by side and you will realise even without being a rocket scientist the Canadian system is smarter or at least has less loopholes for sandbagging in it,really think about it!!! a 9 or 10 on a par three before tossing out strokes

  2. #32
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    I'm not missing the point, I'm seeing it differently. They are posting different scores, not the same ones. One will be posting an 80 after ESC and the other 81. The point that I am trying to make is after 10 rounds of this, say these were the first 10 rounds that either player has posted, the USGA golfer will have an index of 9 (not really but this is simplified) and the RCGA golfer will have an index of 8. If I look at the course handicap chart for say Eagle Creek, from the blues, the USGA player will have a course handicap of 10 and the RCGA golfer will have a course handicap of 9. Now they have to play.

    The other point I have been trying to make is that a golfer of that class will not have that many ESC holes in any given round. You say you are a 7.8, how many times do you use ESC in a round? I'm a 10, give or take a few decimal points either way, and I have 1 maybe 2.

    OK, let's take this into a match of some sort. I have to give a stroke on the hardest hole (I'm pretending to be the RCGA golfer) I will have to alter your scenario, where the RCGA golfer has taken ESC on 4 holes, while the USGA golfer has taken ESC on 3 holes, and make them both take ESC on 3 holes as this more fairly reflects the reality of things (In fact the RCGA golfer would be posting a +6 while the USGA golfer would post a +9. Handicaps in this scenario using EC at the blues is 7 and 10, so 3 shots are given) This is where it gets complex. There are a number of options here:
    1. Have the two golfers blown up on all the same holes, and shot the same score on all of them with the exception of the fourth blow up hole for the RCGA player. With the 3 strokes given, the USGA golfer would win3 and 2 in Match Play. In stroke play he would be up 3 strokes for the ones given, so he won by 3 strokes net. The probablity of this ever happening is about as close to zero as you are going to get, as I have never seen two amateur golfers shoot exactly the same score on every hole for an entire round.
    2. The two golfers blow up on different holes, but score the same for the remaining holes. OK, this is really complex and also relies on whether the USGA golfer blew up on the stroke holes (this affects Match Play). So let's look at those numbers. All blowup holes are triples, all others are par. So in stroke play, the result is the same, the USGA golfer winning by 3 strokes. In Match Play, it could be very different. If either player blows up on all three stroke holes, then the Match would be halved. If he uses any of the strokes, the USGA player would win by 1-up, 2 and 1 or 3 and 2 depending on how many strokes he was able to use on holes that were tied in score. Again, this is a very unlikely scenario because it is dependent on the two golfers shooting the excat same score for 12 holes, and then shooting triples for their blow up holes.
    3. What would really happen is that the golfers would shoot different scores on the majority of the holes, and that the blow up holes could be anything from doubles to quads or worse. These totals would affect gross and net stroke play totals, e.g. the USGA golfer shoots quads on all of the blow up holes while the RCGA golfer only shoots triples which would wipe out the 3 stroke advantage of the USGA golfer. In Match play, the scores on the holes would dictate how it went. The USGA player shooting a quad while the RCGA player shoots a par, bogie, double or triple doesn't matter unless it is a stroke hole. Anything could happen in this format, and that's the way golf is.
    Again I say that the differences in the ESC make little or no difference once you get on the course. You have to make the shots. Blaming statistics for bad play is not the way to go.
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  3. #33
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    If I look at the course handicap chart for say Eagle Creek, from the blues, the USGA player will have a course handicap of 10 and the RCGA golfer will have a course handicap of 9. Now they have to play.
    Exactly. RCGA guy is a player of the same ability as USGA guy. USGA guy gets a stroke. That's unfair to RCGA guy. If we both have the same score on the hardest hole, he wins the hole, but he does not deserve an extra stroke over RCGA guy. That seems really obvious to me.

    The rest of it just made my head hurt and I can't say it made any sense after reading it twice. All I can get ot of it is that it depends who wins which holes, to which I say "of course it does"... for 17 holes they play straight up as they should. But on ONE HOLE, the #1 hcp hole, it IS an issue.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  4. #34
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    It MAY be an issue depending on how the hole is played. The only way to avoid the whole mess is to either play straight up, which the higher handicap golfer wouldn't like, or don't play for money with people you don't know! I don't play for money with some people I DO know, LOL!
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  5. #35
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    It MAY be an issue depending on how the hole is played.
    The only way it's not an issue is if RCGA guy wins by 2 (win either way) or loses by 2 (loss either way).
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  6. #36
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    Exactly.
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  7. #37
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    I'd be uncomfortable with that wouldn't you?
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  8. #38
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    That's why I wouldn't personally bet money playing someone I didn't know. The ESC may be small potatoes compared to how the person actually keeps score, a la Golfbum's post.

    As for a 1 stroke difference, I really couldn't care less if I was playing for fun. If something else was on the line, then we would have to figure something else out. But knowing how the handicap system works, and how often people are 'supposed" to play to their handicap, it doesn't worry me at all.
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
    Colby

  9. #39
    Practice Pig ironmaster15213 is on a distinguished road ironmaster15213's Avatar
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    It's no more complicated than this, the less strokes that are thrown out of your score the closer to your true average score you will play. U.S.G.A. throws out too few strokes and R.C.G.A. throws out too many, at least for above 10 handicaps. It will only be close if both players don't tend to have many blow up holes, otherwise the U.S.G.A. system will put it's player much closer to his/ her true scoring ability and the R.C.G.A. player will be at a disadvantage.

  10. #40
    1 Iron golfmajic is on a distinguished road
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    I started this link because I was in Florida playing with a fellow who I play with in Canada on a regular basis. Using the RCGA system we were the same handicap. Because he is playing for the winter at a US course he is using the USGA system. When I arrived he announced his handicap as 4 strokes higher than what was his Canadian Handicap and he was actually shooting lower scores than in Canada.
    I was amazed by this and after playing several games with him it was clear that the USGA system allows a noticeable difference in actual handicaps. Sorry but I was having trouble playing with and giving this known golfer strokes.
    I talked with the USGA pro at the course and he says he believes that the USGA system is highly flawed. Just for fun I had a number of score cards that we entered into the USGA system, my handicap under the USGA system for 18 games input jumped 3 full strokes, go figure it anyway you want but this was the actual result.
    The systems are not Equitable for 10 or higher handicaps it is that simple!

  11. #41
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfbum View Post
    Now I will post the "HONEST HANDICAP METHOD"

    Shoot 75

    Post 85

    Enter stroke play event as a 13

    Shoot 74, Win Low Gross by a mile and walk away with big prize.

    It happens all the time.
    It happens too often where the club at which you are playing has not created a means to deal with the cheaters. The RCGA has specific procedures as to what should be done with sandbaggers, including the handicap committee entering scores for the individual BELOW what he has entered, lowering the handicap and even removal of the handicap, as your handicap factor is NOT yours, but the property of the RCGA.

    The handicap committee at our club, formed in late 2006, is first going to spend some time educating the members as to what scores to post. Then, we are going to monitor the posting by comparing the games played against the number of times their name appears on the booking sheet, and using competitive, mens/ladies night scores and so on. It will take some effort, however, it will certainly increase the chances of handicap competitions yielding fair results.

  12. #42
    Practice Pig ironmaster15213 is on a distinguished road ironmaster15213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    It happens too often where the club at which you are playing has not created a means to deal with the cheaters. The RCGA has specific procedures as to what should be done with sandbaggers, including the handicap committee entering scores for the individual BELOW what he has entered, lowering the handicap and even removal of the handicap, as your handicap factor is NOT yours, but the property of the RCGA.

    The handicap committee at our club, formed in late 2006, is first going to spend some time educating the members as to what scores to post. Then, we are going to monitor the posting by comparing the games played against the number of times their name appears on the booking sheet, and using competitive, mens/ladies night scores and so on. It will take some effort, however, it will certainly increase the chances of handicap competitions yielding fair results.
    .......I can pretty much assure you that anybody that shoots 6 or more shots under their index after including the course slope and rating during a tournament round is a sandbagger. I haven't shot more than 4 strokes under a course rating and slope in the last 3 years let alone during the tougher conditions of a tournament

  13. #43
    1 Iron golfmajic is on a distinguished road
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    I sent the question of the differences in handicap systems to the RCGA, here is the response:

    Here is our answer:

    Hi John, you are correct about the differences in ESC between RCGA and USGA. We feel our ESC does a better job of limiting abnormally high scores, but the stats show that any difference in handsciap between USGA and RCGA is statistically insignificant, and an RCGA Factor and USGA Index are considered fully equal. Matt MacKay 1-800-263-0009 x209

    Thank you for using our Ask a Question feature.
    We invite you back anytime!

  14. #44
    Lob Wedge brassie00 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank View Post
    Actually the CDN hcp (posts 98) is lower that the US player (posts 112) for the same ability,

    Therefore when they play a match both as 20 hcp the CDN gives the US player strokes and ends up losing the match.
    If there both 20 handicaps why does the Can golfer give the US golfer strokes .

    What everbody seems to be missisg is that in order for the US player to have a 20 handicap he is shooting 14 strokes on average more than the Canadian golfer . Nobody gets any strokes because there both 20 hdcps.

  15. #45
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironmaster15213 View Post
    .......I can pretty much assure you that anybody that shoots 6 or more shots under their index after including the course slope and rating during a tournament round is a sandbagger. I haven't shot more than 4 strokes under a course rating and slope in the last 3 years let alone during the tougher conditions of a tournament
    When I went to the handicap certification seminar last July, given by Matt Mackay whose response is below, it was indicated that a golfer will shoot his handicap or better, 25% of the time, a fact which I did NOT believe, thinking that it happened more frequently.

    In checking my stats I tied or beat our course rating only 22% of the time. The obvious conclusion from this is that if you notice someone winning an unusually large number of net prizes, there may be something wrong with his handicap, particularly if the net prizes are at his home course.

  16. #46
    Practice Pig ironmaster15213 is on a distinguished road ironmaster15213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    When I went to the handicap certification seminar last July, given by Matt Mackay whose response is below, it was indicated that a golfer will shoot his handicap or better, 25% of the time, a fact which I did NOT believe, thinking that it happened more frequently.

    In checking my stats I tied or beat our course rating only 22% of the time. The obvious conclusion from this is that if you notice someone winning an unusually large number of net prizes, there may be something wrong with his handicap, particularly if the net prizes are at his home course.
    ......While it is true that you can play to or beat your handicap index 25% of the time it is the idea of shooting 6 under that average that I'm saying is very very tough to do during tournament play. I consider you a better golfer than me even before I got nailed in the knee with a ball on the fly, My best round in the last 3 years under index was -4 and that was shooting 71 on a 74+ rated course with a high slope, my average score for the last 35 rounds of 2005 was 70.3 but they tended to be easier courses with indexes around 68 and slopes of 125. The strange thing is that I'm more of a consistant player than most cause my anticap was 3.7 (taking my worst scores). I just think that anybody that shoots 6 under their index including rating and slope should be under review. And that's not even considering the R.C.G.A. and how their system will give you a lower handicap than you really deserve and making it really tough to shoot way under that index.

  17. #47
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    I just took a look at my scores and I had 20% of my differentials lower than my handicap.

  18. #48
    Practice Pig ironmaster15213 is on a distinguished road ironmaster15213's Avatar
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    I found an old website where they had my old scores with ratings and slopes and such. I seemed to have played under my index 7 out of 21 games, but never more than -1.6 strokes and a lot of those were like -.1 and -.2 That's all in the past, hopefully till I heal up.

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