More "PLANE" Truth

[BC MIST]

Two problems mentioned in the posts above: (1) too much inside out, (2) not squaring the clubface resulting in pushes, are really the same problem and likely have the same cause. From my observations they are caused by the lead upper arm separating from the lead upper chest. If the arm and chest were to remain connected, the hands would come around the body more through impact, moving "level left," causing an inside to square path that John mentions above AND a square club face.

The hands do not move out to the ball or down the line, in the impact zone, they move left. Place yourself in the pre-impact, 6/100ths position, where the hands are in front of your right thigh and the shaft is parallel to the target line and the ground. Now, move your arms either out to the ball or down the line, very slowly. You will notice that the face is wide open. (inside OUT pushes) Then, from 6/100ths, allow your arms to move left of a line parallel to the target line and you will notice that the club face squares up. The arms moving left squares the club face, not the hands.

IMO, it is 100% unnecessary to THINK about a body rotation or a weight shift, as you start the downswing. This happens incidentally if you hit DOWN on the ball. Your brain subconsciously anticipates the downswing before the backswing is completed and causes the lower body to begin some forward motion to stabilize the body in anticipation of the upcoming motion of the arms. If you focus on making John's "Magic Move," and I really think that it is magic, of moving the hands BACK first, you will get the shaft ON PLANE and all the body shift and natural rotation you need, without ever having to CONSCIOUSLY think about it. The shot of the start of my downswing in post 21 above where my hands and the shaft move BACK to my shaft axis plane immediately, is what I work on each time in practice and is why I normally hit the ball pretty straight.

If you get John's tape and see his ARC or LINE of approach idea, you will also see that his magic move is almost happens incidentally as well, if you just focus on making the club head move over the line of approach. On a few occasions when I have been asked to help some golfers with their swing, I draw the line of approach on the ground or use masking tape on a mat and simply have the golfer swing over it. Almost instantly an over the top swinger becomes an inside swinger and when they see this on video, their jaws drops. I neither know nor work for John but his approach is simple and simply brilliant. The tape and/or the book, "The Secret of the Golf Swing," will help.

[byerxa]

IMO, it is 100% unnecessary to THINK about a body rotation or a weight shift, as you start the downswing. This happens incidentally if you hit DOWN on the ball.

These are the nuances of the swing that require individual instruction and attention. I have to make a slight yet conscious weight shift on the start of the downswing. I think for me my arms and hands are stronger relative to the rest of my body wrt to a golf swing. My arms will easily overpower my lower body and cause all kinds of problems. I have to focus hard on keeping my core and legs solid and in the proper positions, while my arms and hands will naturally and easily swing through the ball no problem. It is obvious I need to increase my core and leg strength to balance my body out and get back to where everything works better in sync.

[BC MIST]

These are the nuances of the swing that require individual instruction and attention. I have to make a slight yet conscious weight shift on the start of the downswing. I think for me my arms and hands are stronger relative to the rest of my body wrt to a golf swing. My arms will easily overpower my lower body and cause all kinds of problems. I have to focus hard on keeping my core and legs solid and in the proper positions, while my arms and hands will naturally and easily swing through the ball no problem. It is obvious I need to increase my core and leg strength to balance my body out and get back to where everything works better in sync.

I never, ever think about a weight or lower body shift and yet video shows that the lower moves first, 5 video frames before the back swing is finished. This means that the lower move first is subconscious and continues to happen each time, if I take a divot, or feel like I do.

In your case, it may be that if you had an over the top swing motion at one time, that part of the cause was too strong an upper body move combined with a blocking of the lower body. The latter would then have become a subconscious move, even though it was incorrect. To unlearn both of these faults, it may have been necessary to work on both a lower body move AND a push back of the hands/arms at the outset of the downswing to achieve what you need. However, I still say that you cannot take a divot as described above without a good weight shift.

[john dunigan]

Jerome,

I don't suppose you know how to up load any video or photos of your swing? Can you do that here? There's more than one way to hit a push--normally an open club face but you could have too much lag, too much hip slide or even something so simple as ball location too far back.

One big thing, though, what flight are you trying to create?

JD

[Powerdraw]

do you mean curvature? i would say a draw. i doubt i have too much lag, hip slide uh, yes probably as well, i have an active pivot ideed. I work hard on ball location further forward to compensate but then i get the odd fats, so its could be a flipping through the ball if too far forward...if you send me your personnal e-mail through PM, i might be able to send you some vids.

[john dunigan]

It's john@golfbetterproductions.com

Send 'em on.

[byerxa]

I never, ever think about a weight or lower body shift and yet video shows that the lower moves first, 5 video frames before the back swing is finished. This means that the lower move first is subconscious and continues to happen each time, if I take a divot, or feel like I do.

In your case, it may be that if you had an over the top swing motion at one time, that part of the cause was too strong an upper body move combined with a blocking of the lower body. The latter would then have become a subconscious move, even though it was incorrect. To unlearn both of these faults, it may have been necessary to work on both a lower body move AND a push back of the hands/arms at the outset of the downswing to achieve what you need. However, I still say that you cannot take a divot as described above without a good weight shift.

You can take great divots without a proper weight shift, as long as you don't mind them to happen about 5" behind the ball! I fully agree with your assesment that the weight shift needs to be an implicit ingrained move because it is so subtle. I am at that point where I am trying to make it such.

[sweeper]

golfin-buddy or anyone

What I would like then, are opinions on what you consider to be the ideal planes, what parts of the golfer follow those planes and of what importance they are.

IMOP there is no ideal plane. As long as the bottom of your choice of plane
rests on the line between the target and the ball, you can employ any
plane you want based on the shot at hand requires...

I, for example, use mainly three planes. For full shots, I shift from elbow plane
to the steeper turned shoulder plane during the backswing and from the top
I just focus on moving the right shoulder down and out on the turned shoulder
plane and sustaining the lag pressure on pp#3(where the right index finger touches the shaft). When I do that, my hips slide towards the target while my head
remains steady(unconsciously...) and I get a secondary axis tilt(spine is
tilted away from the target but weight is shifted to the left)
Why do I use TSP on the downswing??? Because IMOP it gives me the
most mechanical advantage for distance...

100 yards in, I might employ the elbow plane where my right elbow slides on this
plane both during the backswing and downswing...

Around the green, I might choose to employ 'hands only plane'. This is a very
shallow plane... I just move my pp3 on this plane back and forth. One must be
very cautious using this plane because it is very easy to loose the lag and quit...
Movement should be heavy and deliberate... I find it very useful for short chips...

Although the angle of the three planes are different, they rest on the same
baseline... I just thrust the club differently based on the plane I choose. And
the thrust I apply should always be sliding down and out on the plane to a
point on the baseline of the plane in front of the ball (during the downswing).

Having said that I still suck and my game is still not worth a lick... (playing once a week does not help at all... two kids, lack of time and money)

[BC MIST]

IMOP there is no ideal plane. As long as the bottom of your choice of plane
rests on the line between the target and the ball, you can employ any
plane you want based on the shot at hand requires...

I, for example, use mainly three planes. For full shots, I shift from elbow plane
to the steeper turned shoulder plane during the backswing and from the top
I just focus on moving the right shoulder down and out on the turned shoulder
plane and sustaining the lag pressure on pp#3(where the right index finger touches the shaft). When I do that, my hips slide towards the target while my head
remains steady(unconsciously...) and I get a secondary axis tilt(spine is
tilted away from the target but weight is shifted to the left)
Why do I use TSP on the downswing??? Because IMOP it gives me the
most mechanical advantage for distance...

100 yards in, I might employ the elbow plane where my right elbow slides on this
plane both during the backswing and downswing...

Around the green, I might choose to employ 'hands only plane'. This is a very
shallow plane... I just move my pp3 on this plane back and forth. One must be
very cautious using this plane because it is very easy to loose the lag and quit...
Movement should be heavy and deliberate... I find it very useful for short chips...

Although the angle of the three planes are different, they rest on the same
baseline... I just thrust the club differently based on the plane I choose. And
the thrust I apply should always be sliding down and out on the plane to a
point on the baseline of the plane in front of the ball (during the downswing).

Having said that I still suck and my game is still not worth a lick... (playing once a week does not help at all... two kids, lack of time and money)

Maybe you "suck at the game" because you use three planes.

Why does returning on the turned shoulder plane give you more distance? IMO, the resulting misalignment of the shaft and right forearm would reduce force not increase it.

[sweeper]

Maybe you "suck at the game" because you use three planes.

Why does returning on the turned shoulder plane give you more distance? IMO, the resulting misalignment of the shaft and right forearm would reduce force not increase it.

Because I just can apply a bigger force with my right shoulder and sustain it
longer. Although my right forearm does not trace the TSP, it traces the SAP and
aligns with the shaft (down the line view) in the impact zone...
Please see the attached document...
and please let me know what you think... Maybe I am misinterpreting the whole
little yellow book...

[sweeper]

Please see Kenny Perry's motion (down the line view)...
http://www.v1golfacademy.com/library...=Kenny%20Perry
IMO he uses turned shoulder plane on the downswing...
When he is at the top, draw a line from the ball to his right shoulder and to
his hands... That is the TSP...
Notice how his right shoulder is moving on TSP towards the ball...(from top
to follow through) Not underneath the plane, not above the plane... right
on the plane...
And notice how his right forearm gets aligned with the shaft in the impact zone...

[BC MIST]

Please see Kenny Perry's motion (down the line view)...
http://www.v1golfacademy.com/library...=Kenny%20Perry
IMO he uses turned shoulder plane on the downswing...
When he is at the top, draw a line from the ball to his right shoulder and to
his hands... That is the TSP...
Notice how his right shoulder is moving on TSP towards the ball...(from top
to follow through) Not underneath the plane, not above the plane... right
on the plane...
And notice how his right forearm gets aligned with the shaft in the impact zone...

After watching the video, Perry returns his hands down the turned shoulder plane to impact. Most excellent ball strikers, Hogan, Norman(Moe), Knudson and scores of others, have their hands move below the TSP and some are actually ON the shaft axis plane.

Virtually ALL golfers align the shaft with the right forearm in the impact zone, however, some get there via a different route. Upright swingers NEED excessive lower body drive which creates a huge timing issue. What I believe John Dunigan is suggesting and shown in the position of scores of good ball strikers, is that the right forearm AND the shaft ALIGN, half way down. I may have a different understanding of what "two force vectors"mean, but when the shaft and right forearm are aligned, maximum force can be achieved.

In looking at the shots of Perry's swing, when he is half way down, his right forearm is horizontal while his club shaft is oblique, about 45*. Not a good position to be in. To me, this would result in accuracy and consistency problems, if this were to be done by we mortals. Perry is a superior athlete and can repeat the compensations for his misalignment. If the straightest and most consistent ball strikers align the shaft and the right forearm, half way down, why shouldn't we?

[john dunigan]

I would like to suggest that we always find out what filght the player is hitting before we look at his swing? This can have an awful difference in what they do with the club to create that flight. Turned shoulder plane swing = mark calvecchia? = cutter?

JD

[Powerdraw]

john sorry about the non-sent swing on vid per discussed, my internet service went down since friday...will get that done indeed, thanks for the offer.

as for your recent post, im surprised, this is the first time someone speaks of ball flight choosing....i mean, most just want straight. you seem to ask how high or low? personnaly, i hit very high and try to hit a draw...am i dumb? could be...

very interesting point of view john.

[Wknd_Warrior]

A little off topic, but that guy has a great swing. A simple motion to get into striking position and a very deliberate focussed motion through the ball. He's not flayling at it at all, totally in control.

[john dunigan]

Powerdraw,

Yes, you are dumb! Just kidding! Here's a pretty good theory of playing golf. As you've probably heard, it's a game of misses. When you try to hit the ball straight with anything above a 7 iron (maybe 6) and you miss it just a little, you won't have any idea which way your miss is going. So imagine that there's water left of the green and you're standing out there with a 4iron and you try to hit the ball straight at the middle of the green. How do you know where it's going to go if you miss it or better yet can you guarantee yourself that the ball will miss the water? The advantage to cultivating a curve you can trust is that you can eliminate one side of the golf course and effectively give yourself a bigger target to look at. But you have to eliminate either a hook or a slice. I don't really care which. So I get nearly all my students to create big curves in only one direction first. Then we tune it up to a small curve. Then we learn to move it both ways to always work the ball away from trouble. Course management 101 with phd at the end.

Make sense?

[Powerdraw]

makes sense indeed...maybe i should fight the draw instead of trying to obtain it at all cost...youve got my ty swing on your desk, i know flat off plane going back then some how i recup the overswing to swipe at it...lol...thanks!

[john dunigan]

Today's my day off, so after I take little Mary to the park, I'm going to show you some great stuff to help with your ball flight.

JD

[leftylucas]

What a great benefit it is having you as one of contributors on this site John, thanks for your input. I am ordering your book today!

[john dunigan]

Thanks Lefty, I'm sure you're going to find something that makes a big difference in the book.

[john dunigan]

Jerome,

You are one of the very few people I come into contact with that do not necessarily need to do something different with the club to improve your ball striking. I give you permission to forget about your backswing!

Here we go. IN MY OPINION (of course, that is what you asked for) you will benefit very much from staying more still with the hip slide and leg (knee) slide toward the target on the downswing. When you slide forward, the ball can't come with you, so it is effectively moved back in your stance to a point where the club head is moving very inside-out still and the club face has not had a chance to square--push city. If you just try rolling the left arm over earlier through impact, i think you are going to find some nasty curves to the left.

Here are some options I use with students. As always, try all and see what works fastest for you. ALL WORK, but we want fast, right?

The right leg only drill. Take your normal address then lift your left heel way up off the ground so that only the toe of your shoe touches the ground. Maintain your balance on your right leg (yes, I did say right) throughout the swing. I will be very surprised if after you've picked yourself up off of the ground a few times and found your balance the club face was no longer open...If so, that's a true sign that your rights were slide induced. When taking a normal stance, try to move into your right heel on the backswing and then stay there as long as you can on the downswing--definitely until after impact. Watch your right heel to see when it comes up (video).

Next, learn the proper left leg action of "posting up" Try to straighten your left knee as the club comes into impact--smoothly please--so that your left knee no longer pushes way out toward the target. It feels like walking up the stairs and then pivoting sharply to the left on the left leg. In your case you might want to feel minimal weight shift to the left leg, just the straightening and pivoting. You'll be amazed by how your pivot improves when you get the left knee out of the way.

3 and you may not need this. You may have to feel that once the backswing knee positions are set, keep them as close to in their BACKSWING position as you can to avoid sliding.

4 get a plastic chair and place the back of it 2 inches away from (targetward) of your left leg and don't hit it as you swing down.

You are going to hate the feeling of a near zero shift downswing , but you're going to love the results! You'll probably have to slow it down to 1/2 speed at first and maybe get rid of the ball just to make sure your focus is on what you are trying to learn rather than on hitting the ball...

Let me know how it goes.

JD

PS sorry for the length.

[Powerdraw]

''3 and you may not need this. You may have to feel that once the backswing knee positions are set, keep them as close to in their BACKSWING position as you can to avoid sliding.''

do you mean close together?
thanks.

thank you very much for the liberty of my backswing lol and for the time taken to look at my hack. lol.

will do and get back to ya.

[Powerdraw]

just did a few mock drills in front of mirror with what you said...hmmmm...looks old classic swing with left foot off the ground but can already see a better pivot...more later. thanks

[john dunigan]

About #3, your knees do their normal thing on the way back, and the left knee stays put on the downswing--later on, you can let yourself pivot on the left leg.

Remember, the reason for drills is to learn the feel they are trying to teach you, not just do them and forget them when a ball's in the way.

JD

[sensfan63]

About #3, your knees do their normal thing on the way back, and the left knee stays put on the downswing--later on, you can let yourself pivot on the left leg.

Remember, the reason for drills is to learn the feel they are trying to teach you, not just do them and forget them when a ball's in the way.

JD

Straighten the left leg on the downswing AND move to your heels on the backswing? This advice scares the be-jesus out of me...I am a firm believer that you should stay on the balls of your feet at all times in order to maintain an athletic position. Just try to imagine any athlete on his heels, never happens if they're in the right positions...

[Powerdraw]

here you go....HAMMER THROWER, and its great for golf in my op

[sensfan63]

here you go....HAMMER THROWER, and its great for golf in my op

good one! I was thinking more along the lines of a hockey/soccer goalie or a tennis player...

Playing from your heels encourages that old teaching misnomer that you should imagine yourself "sitting on a stool" when you set up to the ball. More false words have never been spoken. Well maybe they have, but you get my point.

[leftylucas]

I am no expert and maybe you are but John Dunigan is a master pga teacher so I will follow his advice although you being a sens fan gives you some credence!

[sensfan63]

I am no expert and maybe you are but John Dunigan is a master pga teacher so I will follow his advice although you being a sens fan gives you some credence!

I know a couple of master pga teachers and I would not take lessons from them. The label does not immediately give them THE ultimate knowledge about the golf swing.

Saying that, I have read a little bit about JD's teaching, and for the most part it adds up. But the couple of things that I read, and commented about, made me want to speak up. I disagree with what he said. I think my comments are correct.

[BC MIST]

I know a couple of master pga teachers and I would not take lessons from them. The label does not immediately give them THE ultimate knowledge about the golf swing.

Many years ago Ray Haines and Stan Kolar were the only local MASTER CPGA professionals in the Ottawa area and both were excellent teachers. As this distinction is hard to achieve I was wondering who else has earned locally

What "pga teachers" (American) do you know?