Eagle Creek...

[big easy]

Played Eagle Creek today. Man the course was in really good shape. Fairways are perfect and gives some roll also. Pretty rare for this time of the year. They were surprinsingly green also. Greens were a little slow (well, slow for Eagle Creek) but despite the fact that there were still some holes (aerated last fall), it didn't affect any of our putts. It's good to play "real" golf even at this time of the year.

What impressed more is the new clubhouse. It is really sharp. We had the change to make a guided visit with André Lacasse (owner) and it is really impressive. They will now be able to have tournaments (money!!!). :jawdrop

But, we saw a sign that no more drinkable water will be available on the course other than bottles at the restaurant. This is supposedly a decision of the Ontario golf course managers association. This is absolutely stupid. To my knowledge, nobody died after drinking water on a golf course. IMHO, you run more chance to die from deshydratation rather than drinking this water. Unless, this decision hides something else... it would have been more serious if this was a warning from Health Canada or the Ontario Department of health but from an owners association, I'm sceptical....

[el tigre]

Actually, a kid died in the US from drinking water on the golf course that had gone bad, so the insurance companies are telling golf courses to stop providing it. Casselview had a similar sign up, and I think you're going to see more and more of it.

On the plus side, I think you'll see courses that do not currently have a beer cart on the course now providing one.

[big easy]

Thanks for the info el tigre. This is sad but a lot of people died after being hit by a club or a broken club, by a ball, by lightnings, by poor quality food and in Europe four years ago, thousands of people were infected by drinking directly in a Pepsi bottle and and some of them died also. So, no more balls, no more clubs, no more food, no more drinks and no more golf. Let us sit at home on our couches, it's way safer!!!

To my knowledge, the purpose of insurance companies is to cover the risks. So, if there is no more risk because everything has to be avoided, do we really need these companies? By crossing the street every morning, I run more risk to die than drinking water on a golf course...

BTW, Eagle Creek is a nice course with or without drinkable water!!!

[spidey]

the insurance companies are telling golf courses to stop providing it.

This is pathetic. When are we going to learn to stop listening to lawyers??? Looks like golf course owners have about as much backbone as your average jellyfish.

[Andy4Par]

You have to admit though, that large coolers of water sitting for long periods of time on a golf course( or a cow pasture) probably never or very rarely cleaned. Not to mention the idiots out there that can access an unlocked cooler and put who knows what in the water. Ok, probably never happen but you don't know...


I think I'd stick to carrying a few extra pints or a couple bottles of water in my golf bag.

[big easy]

Andy4Par,

I agree with you but it is another example that the real motivation bheind this restriction is for economical reasons. You have to put somebody to change and clean these bottles. Instead, you can sell water bottles for 2.00 or 2.50$ with the same staff at the 9½. However, when it is 40* outside and you leave a bottle in your bag, I don't think that the quality of this water is better.

As to unlocked water coolers, we all enjoy maple syrup and we can't even tell if someone had the good idea to .... into the pail. Hopefully, this water is always boiled...

[mr shank]

From the info I have received there isn't going to be water on ANY golf course this summer.

I really don't think this is a conspiracy among of golf course owners wanting to gouge patrons for bottled water. This is simply another knee-jerk reaction of the Ontario government trying to cover it's sorry ass after Walkerton.

Can you imagine if a golfer got E.coli from a golf course cooler? Why would any owner put themselves at risk for a huge lawsuit for no return?

The government is passing the buck onto the owners, who will make some extra $$ selling water, but it's golfers that will suffer in the end.

I plan on bringing a fresh & a frozen bottle of water with me for each round this year.

[Weazl]

You mean that water was for drinking? Oops my bad I washed my clubs with it. ha ha ha No seriously, just do as I do and drink BEER! 6am tee off time, no pronblem, start with coffee, then go to BEER!!!!

[ShaneOttawa]

[i]his is simply another knee-jerk reaction of the Ontario government trying to cover it's sorry ass after Walkerton. [/B]

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Its a golf course industry association recommendation to its members based on legitimate liability concerns. A person died in the US because of water that went bad in the cooler out of the course. I remember seeing an article about potential problems with on-course water dispensers and how the water needs to be kept ice cold and in a clean container. Water supplies that staff don't pay attention to can bake in the sun and literally become bacteria incubators. The industry has recommended that rather than taking the risk of killing someone, courses would be better off removing the coolers. The safety difference between warm water from an open cooler and a sealed water bottle should be obvious.

[spidey]

The safety difference between warm water from an open cooler and a sealed water bottle should be obvious.

You american, man?

There have been millions and millions of people who have drank water at golf courses over the past 50-500 years. One dies. Now we have to blame somebody, and take away water from everybody else who didn't die. I wish associations and lawyers would stop trying to take care of me. Every time they do, my choices diminish and it costs me more.

Who's going to help the guy who doesn't want to buy water and keels over on a golf course from dehydration? "Well, it's not our fault, at least he didn't die from bacteria in our water." Nice consolation for the mother.

There are thousands of municipal golf courses where kids don't have $2 to pay for water.

It's clear that this is hurting a lot more people than it's helping. The only ones protected are the owners who are too lazy to provide fresh clean water for their patrons... oh yeah, AND the couple of guys that might have gotten sick on the water.

(Does anybody know the statistics on food poisoning at golf course restaurants? Wanna bet that it's many times the number of guys who get sick from the water?)

[mr shank]

Originally posted by ShaneOttawa
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Its a golf course industry association recommendation to its members based on legitimate liability concerns. A person died in the US because of water that went bad in the cooler out of the course. I remember seeing an article about potential problems with on-course water dispensers and how the water needs to be kept ice cold and in a clean container. Water supplies that staff don't pay attention to can bake in the sun and literally become bacteria incubators. The industry has recommended that rather than taking the risk of killing someone, courses would be better off removing the coolers. The safety difference between warm water from an open cooler and a sealed water bottle should be obvious.

Don't be sorry Shane - have you seen the signs posted at the courses? The one I saw said : On the recommendation of the ONTARIO GOVERNMENT - better get your facts straight before you accuse someone else of not knowing what they're talking about.

So you believe that for 100 years we've been drinking from golf course water containers and only now people are getting sick? You don't think this has anything with Walkerton? Give me a break, how naive are you?

This is simply people worrying about being sued so this is an easy way to cover themselves.

I agree with Spidey, I'll bet there are many more cases of food poisoning at golf courses.
What do you think Shane? - should we ban food as well?

[Weazl]

Come on guys be realistic. regardless of who's rule it is, or recomendation it is, we all know that the golf course owner's of the world are loving it. They no longer need to provide coolers, keep them clean, keep them stocked, meaning they save money but better yet, they get to sell bottled water making them even richer.

As if the greens fees aren't expensive enough at some places?

It's all about greed, forget about the public's safety!

[em69]

Originally posted by spidey

Who's going to help the guy who doesn't want to buy water and keels over on a golf course from dehydration?
There are thousands of municipal golf courses where kids don't have $2 to pay for water.

Originally posted by bigeasy

Instead, you can sell water bottles for 2.00 or 2.50$

Whine whine whine. No one is forcing you guys in buying the water at the courses.

Water comes out of your tap for a total of 2cents or how about buying water bottles in bulk for 37 cents.

I bring my own water to the course all the time for many reasons and I never have a problem with it getting warm. Put one in the freezer for a few hours and it will stay cold for a long time.

[nice_lag]

I agree with em69... just bring your own.

For people's info, more than one person died because of contaminated water on golf courses last year.

But you'll still see some on courses. It was only a recommendation from the association, not a must-do. So just take it as it is and enjoy golf. That is what it's all about after all; a nice relaxing time away from work or any other worries. Just a good time on the course.

[el tigre]

I also agree with em69 and nice lag.

They no longer need to provide coolers, keep them clean, keep them stocked, meaning they save money but better yet, they get to sell bottled water making them even richer.

I go for the golf, not the water. At no time have golf course owners NEEDED to provide water coolers on the golf course - it was simply a little extra "perk" that some courses provided for their customers.

Sadly, this little "perk" will likely go the way of the dodo. But just because it was there does not mean you were ENTITLED to it.

[golfdoc]

So let's see...

You can't get water from the coolers anymore.

The courses will charge at least $2 per bottle.

This just means more and more people will end up bringing their own drinks and food in their bags. There are a lot of people already who fill a water bottle and freeze it before going to golf. They also pack a lunch and never spend a peeny other than green fees.

If the government is forcing courses to do this, then we have to adjust. It's not a big deal.

[The Shtick]

I think that it's mostly the courses that don't want to get sued- not the government forcing them to to it....

Another result will be that on busy days (ie.tournaments, etc.) courses will have no choice to put out more than one beverage cart to accomodate the crowds- especially on a hot day. Now THAT is one idea I like.

Courses who decide not to put coolers out on the course will also have to make sure that the players are aware of this BEFORE they play. I don't want to find out that there is no water to drink as I'm playing.

[QN1]

I think anyone that believes this is in the best interest of the golfer and not about $$, they aren't thinking right.

The better recommendation would be for the government to conduct random spot checks of the water quality on courses to ensure that the water is ok. Instead, what they've done is made a recommendation that will cover themselves, not cost them anything, and one that the course owners will follow because it makes them more cash.

Think of it this way, if the recommendation from the Walkerton incident was to have everyone buy bottled water instead, how well received do you think it would be?

But that's just me thinking....

[Andy4Par]

But the golf course owners have never been obligated to provide drinking water on the course. Not even a beer cart. They did it out of courtesy for the golfers that frequent their courses.

Golfers typically pay $20 to $65 to play any number of golf courses in the area, and to whine and moan when faced with the fact of paying an extra $2 to $4 bucks for water(even less if you take your own) is crazy.

Now I rarely drank the water from the public water coolers, rather opting to frequent the beer cart or take my own out on the course, so I really don't see what the big deal is here.

Maybe a better solution would have been to introduce regulations and make courses take measures to test and certify their water meets federal standards... all resulting in added costs to the courses which in turn would have been passed on to Joe golfer anyway.

[em69]

Most courses didn't even supply enough water coolers on the courses anyway, so it will actually be almost seemless.

How many times have you played a course and after a few holes you started wondering "...where in the world is the next water cooler?" "...which hole did they place the water cooler on?"
Or for that matter..."...I haven't seen the beer cart in a long time...I wonder when it will show again?" or even better yet "...I'm on the 16th hole and now the beer cart shows up".

Nobody in this forum can tell me they've never said any of those words.

This is a non issue...bring your own water, food, munchies or whatever.

[nolrac2]

Great discussion. I don't know about most of you but five hours or so on the golf course in 27 + heat demands many more than one $2.00 dollar bottle of water. Still looks like a money maker to me and having worked at pretty high end golf course I can definitely attest that water on the golf course is a pain in the butt for many owners and they will be more than pleased to not have to offer this service even if it was always voluntary.

[Kilroy]

I think the water is important. It can be hot out there and one can easily become dehydrated in 4 hours in the sun. It seems to me that it is more than a courtesy to have it there. It is almost a nesessity. I think the inevitable upshot will be ill-prepared people fainting when they overheat. It would be their own fault, but I see this as more of a health hazard than tainted water. Water should be available, and properly maintained.
I really doubt this is a money grab for bottled water. Just a group of owners concened about liability. Can't really blame them for that. People sue when they get sick at your establishment.

[big easy]

At 40$/game and because prices are constantly rising, I think it would be a minimal obligation to have water on the course. If owners are really serious and not hiding behind "liability arguments" and "lawyers opinions", they should install a faucet (other than the one found in the toilet!!!) beside the 9½ so that we can fill our bottles...

[spidey]

I really doubt this is a money grab for bottled water.

Me too. I doubt that the owners really care about water. And I doubt that they ever planned on making much money on water. I think it's an abdication of responsibility. It's the easy way out. Harder would be to do the responsible thing - provide safe water for your patrons.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that this is just a cycle (albeit a long one). Do you think that all the golf courses provided water out of the goodness of their hearts? I suspect it has been a progression where golfers gravitate to the courses with the best amenities - and that water had gradually become an amenity that was expected.

I hope that the owners come to their senses and realize how important free water is at a golf course. Restaurants provide free water to patrons. I think it's pretty obvious that water is more important at a golf course than it is at a restaurant.

Just a group of owners concened about liability. Can't really blame them for that.

Well, maybe we can't blame them for coming up with a solution. But we can blame them for coming up with an inadequate solution. Or we can blame them for coming up with a lazy solution. Or we can just start spending our money at the places that have what we want. I'll bet that there will be plenty of golf courses (mostly private ones) that will continue to have water available. I hope it doesn't take very long for the owners of public courses to realize that it's an marketing advantage to provide the services to their patrons that they appreciate.

People sue when they get sick at your establishment

Especially in the US. But people don't sue if you keep your water clean and don't make them sick. And people can't sue if you haven't been negligent.

So now, all the courses that always provided clean water now provide NO water. Doesn't seem quite right.

Whining? ...maybe, but it's not my point.
My point is that it's an inefficient solution. If the owners don't realize this, I suspect that it will eventually become obvious to them, when it starts costing them money.

In the meantime, I'm still astounded that a few guys dying from drinking water results in having everybody's water taken away instead of improving the quality of the drinking water of the few establishments that should have been held accountable in the first place.

[Gieker69]

Okay i have 2 points....
1. --> i know i have played lots of golf without ever drinking from a cooler during a round...i also know that sometimes i bring my own water because it is hot out or i expect it to get hotter due to the weather forcast and i enjoy a cold drink more than a warm or hot one on a hot day....
2. --> why is this a surprise or a shock that a minority instance is dictating to the majority of users???!! minority are the the opinion rulers in our current society...get used to it!

We have to all get past this idea that "my needs will be met by others"...protect your ass first and foremost...don't expect others to do it for you...bring your own drinks and the situation is solved!

"You may lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!"

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by mr shank
[B]Don't be sorry Shane - have you seen the signs posted at the courses? The one I saw said : On the recommendation of the ONTARIO GOVERNMENT - better get your facts straight before you accuse someone else of not knowing what they're talking about. ]

There is no blanket recommendation from the Ontario government. There is a recommendation from the golf course owner's association to its members, based on insurance input. If you saw a sign suggesting it was a government recommendation, then either A) the sign was wrong, B) the sign was deliberately wrong so blame would be redirected at the government rather than course management, or C) this was an isolated instance where because of local water conditions, and that particular course had indeed been advised by the government not to serve water.

[/QUOTE] So you believe that for 100 years we've been drinking from golf course water containers and only now people are getting sick? You don't think this has anything with Walkerton? Give me a break, how naive are you?[/QUOTE]

No, I believe that after a death and the likely resulting legal settlement that the insurance industry has warned the golf industry about their water, and the golf industry has now warned their members. Some of those members (the course owners themselves) are now taking the recommended action of not supplying water.

The issue isn't the quality of the water coming out of the tap at the course. That's subject to testing today - its not like they've told courses to stop making putting ice cubes in the drinks they sell at the bar. This is about what happens to water that is sitting in a possibly-unclean container that sits baking in the sun all day.

[/QUOTE] This is simply people worrying about being sued so this is an easy way to cover themselves. ][/QUOTE]

I'm glad you agree with me on this - its a legitimate concern by these courses.

[/QUOTE] I agree with Spidey, I'll bet there are many more cases of food poisoning at golf courses.
What do you think Shane? - should we ban food as well? [/QUOTE]

I must have missed the news reports about people dropping dead from the egg salad and the subsequent news reports about the golf course owner's association advising its members not to sell food. Perhaps you could post them here.

Meanwhile, I've always brought a bottle of water and a bottle of Gatorade to the course, and simply top them up as required. I'll just bring an extra bottle full of water now. No big deal.

[big easy]

Well, my own ass is protected by others when not providing me supposedly contaminated water... I should be grateful to them... So, I would like to take back the enumeration I made before by adding some other dangerous aspects of the game of golf. Just to be sure that no golf course will be sued, here is my advice:

- No more carts (lack of maintenance can result in a deadly accident)

- No more food (might be contaminated especially when it is really hot outside)

- No more alcohol (Owners can be sued for not having restricted the absorption of alcohol of an individual - It happened in Ontario few years ago in a different context)

- No more clubs rental (A club might break and result in injury)

- No more pesticide (cause harm to human and the environment)

- No more golf course...it's a dangerous sport, isn't...

[ShaneOttawa]

[i]

Whining? ...maybe, but it's not my point.
My point is that it's an inefficient solution. If the owners don't realize this, I suspect that it will eventually become obvious to them, when it starts costing them money.

In the meantime, I'm still astounded that a few guys dying from drinking water results in having everybody's water taken away instead of improving the quality of the drinking water of the few establishments that should have been held accountable in the first place. [/B]

I basically agree with you - I think its silly to be removing the water, but the courses are fearful and perhaps lazy. My previous posts on this reflect my knowledge that this has everything to do with insurance and liability and fear, and nothing to do with Walkerton.

[ShaneOttawa]

[QUOTE][i]

- No more alcohol (Owners can be sued for not having restricted the absorption of alcohol of an individual - It happened in Ontario few years ago in a different context)[QUOTE][i]

But since the course has the ability already to cut someone off who is over-refreshed, they don't need to stop selling alcohol. They just need to follow the law and not serve people to the point of total inebriation. Nice use of unrelated absurdities to try to make your point, however.

[ShaneOttawa]

Originally posted by big easy
At 40$/game and because prices are constantly rising, I think it would be a minimal obligation to have water on the course. If owners are really serious and not hiding behind "liability arguments" and "lawyers opinions", they should install a faucet (other than the one found in the toilet!!!) beside the 9½ so that we can fill our bottles...

You've hit on the answer for the smart courses that want to maintain customer service as thoughtfully pointed out by another poster. Is Manderley the only local public course with water fountains? I've wondered why more courses (especially those with access to the municipal water supply) don't use fountains/faucets.