Clubhead configuration vs shaft characteristics

[Chieflongtee]

In your opinion is shaft fitting that important? I say clubhead is just as important in the fitting process. Your opinion please.

[Big Johnny69]

What do you mean by clubhead? Are you talking loft, a bias to the head, a certain volume?

I'd say shaft is most important (encompassing all factors: length, flex, weight, bend profile, tip stiffness), then I'd have to consider loft next. But as for size of head or weight bias withing the head, not as important to me.

[covanant]

Loft followed by shaft weight and tip stiffness.
And final playing length

[Started2k3]

Please define "clubhead configuration".

[Chieflongtee]

Please define "clubhead configuration".

Face angle. Buldge and roll. Loft. Lie.Offset. Face Height etc...

[Chieflongtee]

I voted head configuration. Tried many shafts in the same head with good results. Tried many heads with different shafts with lousy results.

[Chieflongtee]

See this thread. http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=2044892

You think you are getting a straight face driver but it ends up being 3 degrees closed(which is good for most btw)

[Chieflongtee]

Wishon votes for the clubhead too:
WISHON

FEEL as good, but from a PURE PERFORMANCE standpoint, the golfer will hit the ball more consistently solid, farther and straighter with the perfect clubhead/wrong shaft than with the perfect shaft, wrong clubhead. This point is NOT done to make the golfer play with a club that has the right head and wrong shaft

[rhh7]

My new driver will have 12 degrees loft, 1 degree closed face, for an effective loft of 13 degrees. The head will weigh 205 grams, with a volume of 280 cc's. It cost me $24.65 from GolfWorks.

With this head and my 95 mph swing, I can carry the ball 220 yards, no matter whether my shaft is an X, S, R, or A.

[BC MIST]

In your opinion is shaft fitting that important? I say clubhead is just as important in the fitting process. Your opinion please.

You and I have done enough experimentation to know that club head configuration is easily far more important than shaft selection, and yet "common knowledge" i.e., marketing BS, says that the shaft is all important.

If all labels on shafts were covered up and golfers had to choose one based on colour only, I would bet that many more golfers would be happy with their choices. One thing that Geoff said elsewhere is that a softer shaft, whether tip of butt soft, feels a lot better than one that is stiff in these areas. A centre hit with a more flexible type shaft, makes one drool.

[Started2k3]

You and I have done enough experimentation to know that club head configuration is easily far more important than shaft selection, and yet "common knowledge" i.e., marketing BS, says that the shaft is all important.

If all labels on shafts were covered up and golfers had to choose one based on colour only, I would bet that many more golfers would be happy with their choices. One thing that Geoff said elsewhere is that a softer shaft, whether tip of butt soft, feels a lot better than one that is stiff in these areas. A centre hit with a more flexible type shaft, makes one drool.

I hope some day that I will understand your point about softer shafts but at this point I want my shaft as stiff as possible. I just got an Evolution X-stiff put in an Ashton X1 5wood and it feels beautiful to hit ... the thing I absolutely hate is any kind of whippy feeling in the shaft. Of the shafts I have installed (all x-stiff), the evolution is the least whippy, followed by Assassin, and then Aggressive nRAGE.

[BC MIST]

I hope some day that I will understand your point about softer shafts but at this point I want my shaft as stiff as possible. I just got an Evolution X-stiff put in an Ashton X1 5wood and it feels beautiful to hit ... the thing I absolutely hate is any kind of whippy feeling in the shaft. Of the shafts I have installed (all x-stiff), the evolution is the least whippy, followed by Assassin, and then Aggressive nRAGE.

You ARE likely playing a softer shaft, relative to to your swing speed. Let me explain.

I copied the frequency profile numbers from the Wishon profiling software onto an Excel spreadsheet. The average frequency of 314 shafts measured 41" from the tip (butt frequency) was 173 cpm's. The average tip frequency of all (11" from the tip) was 789 cpm's. The Accuflex Evolutuion "S" flex was 175 at the butt and 894 at the tip. This means that the shaft is a medium flex under your hands and quite stiff at the tip. Or, it would be classified as an "R" flex at the butt and an "X" flex at the tip.

According to the Wishon method, this shaft suits a smooth transition golfer who has a late release and a high club head speed.

Projecting this to your "X" flex, the shaft suits the same kind of golfer. Smooth transition, late release and a very high club head speed. (VJ Singh) What you feel is the tip stiffness through impact and what you are not feeling is the flexible part of the shaft at the transition. Interestingly, I play the Evolution "S" with my 100 mph swing speed, and I feel the softness at the transition and not through impact.

Another interesting point. The "R" Evolution is 167 in the butt and 899 in the tip. The "R" is stiffer than the "S". I wonder if they make the "X" even softer in the tip to counteract the stiffness of the butt? Regardless, you have a shaft you like. Don't change it.

[Started2k3]

You ARE likely playing a softer shaft, relative to to your swing speed. Let me explain.

I copied the frequency profile numbers from the Wishon profiling software onto an Excel spreadsheet. The average frequency of 314 shafts measured 41" from the tip (butt frequency) was 173 cpm's. The average tip frequency of all (11" from the tip) was 789 cpm's. The Accuflex Evolutuion "S" flex was 175 at the butt and 894 at the tip. This means that the shaft is a medium flex under your hands and quite stiff at the tip. Or, it would be classified as an "R" flex at the butt and an "X" flex at the tip.

According to the Wishon method, this shaft suits a smooth transition golfer who has a late release and a high club head speed.

Projecting this to your "X" flex, the shaft suits the same kind of golfer. Smooth transition, late release and a very high club head speed. (VJ Singh) What you feel is the tip stiffness through impact and what you are not feeling is the flexible part of the shaft at the transition. Interestingly, I play the Evolution "S" with my 100 mph swing speed, and I feel the softness at the transition and not through impact.

Another interesting point. The "R" Evolution is 167 in the butt and 899 in the tip. The "R" is stiffer than the "S". I wonder if they make the "X" even softer in the tip to counteract the stiffness of the butt? Regardless, you have a shaft you like. Don't change it.

Under the Wishon Method I would be classified as a (3, 3, 3) with a swing speed of 117mph (measured with the aforementioned club using one of the radars a Chuck Browns). So I should continue to look for an even stiffer shaft? This is just nuts. I have decided to base all my shaft decisions on feel ... unscientific... yes, but it seems to me to be more consistent and sensible than the current "golf shaft science". For what it is worth, I have yet find a shaft in Golftown that "feels" right for me.

Getting back to the actual poll, not that it matters to anyone, I have decided not to vote because there are way too many variables. With out a LM, the best thing to do would be to find a shaft that "feels" right, then find a head that optimizes the launch conditions. Doing it the other way round seems kind of odd because each shaft will marginally change the launch characteristics and hence you would have to "re-optimize" the head for launch conditions.

[Chieflongtee]

Charles. Which device does CB use for checking swing speed? If it were me I would get a 2nd opinion.

[Started2k3]

Charles. Which device does CB use for checking swing speed? If it were me I would get a 2nd opinion.

Looks almost exactly like:
http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_S1399

Would you like provide my second opinion?

[jvincent]

IIRC the Beltronics are known to read a little high.

There's nothing wrong with using feel to find yourself a club. The only downside is the cost. Just ask me.

One thing to consider when you are doing your Golftown experiments that you should make sure to try and hit the same model of clubhead in the different shafts because different head weights will affect the feel as well.

[Chieflongtee]

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Would you like provide my second opinion?

Just have it checked elsewhere let's say on a vector or a velocity or an achiever. Nothing in this industry is standard not even frequency meters.

[Started2k3]

Just have it checked elsewhere let's say on a vector or a velocity or an achiever. Nothing in this industry is standard not even frequency meters.

2nd ... 3rd ... 4th opinion on my swing speed... does it really matter to me? I would say "no", because I already hit a pretty long ball and all I really need to work on is my consistency/control.

But thank you for your concern.
Charles

[Chieflongtee]

Sorry I did not mean to ruffle any feathers. You brought up the swing speed. IMO if you bring it up you have to live with the neahs and the yeahs.

[Started2k3]

Sorry I did not mean to ruffle any feathers. You brought up the swing speed. IMO if you bring it up you have to live with the neahs and the yeahs.

I have no feathers ... heck I barely have any hair on my head.

I brought up SS because I don't fit with what Wishon is selling. I do not have a "smooth transition" but I do have a late release and a high SS, so does this mean that the stiffest shaft I have ever felt is too soft for me?

It is stunning that I can have a shaft that I have a hard time flexing in my hands (and the old guy at CB couldn't flex at all) and there is a chance that this shaft could be termed an "R". This is just crazy.

[Weirfan]

I hope some day that I will understand your point about softer shafts but at this point I want my shaft as stiff as possible. I just got an Evolution X-stiff put in an Ashton X1 5wood and it feels beautiful to hit ... the thing I absolutely hate is any kind of whippy feeling in the shaft. Of the shafts I have installed (all x-stiff), the evolution is the least whippy, followed by Assassin, and then Aggressive nRAGE.

The Evolution in an x-stiff is a very , very stout shaft ! I know this shaft extremely well and it is rare that someone could even use the the X in a driver....( the weight of the 5 wood head will soften it up a fair bit) in fact not even sure I have known anyone to....although it would depend how long the driver was. Despite the shaft ratings.....The Evo Stiff can handle swing speeds into the 130's.
My swing speed is about 115 on average and I very successfully use the Evolution Regular in a driver...most every other shaft I use will be "labelled as extra stiff" ( unlike you I have a mid release so do not load a shaft the same)

The Evo is a very unique shaft ,,,,the nano technology make the tip extremely stable and tight...I susepect this is why it works for you.....however the butt section is very soft....designed to give it some feel.....if you waggle it , it might feel soft but plays stiff...put it on a frequency meter and the stiff reads like an A flex.....btw so does the Icon FH

It has a completely different profile that the Nrage and especially the Assassin....heck I can play the XX in the Assassin versus the Reg in the Evo....

For someone like yourself with a fast ss and tempo and a late release the profile of the Evo is perfect....that of the Assassin is completely wrong....The Nrage could work but would have to be set up properly...in a fairway wood it would need some good tipping.

Chief.....I think the head and shaft are equally important....both need to be selected with care and matched to each other and the player

[Started2k3]

The Evolution in an x-stiff is a very , very stout shaft ! I know this shaft extremely well and it is rare that someone could even use the the X in a driver....( the weight of the 5 wood head will soften it up a fair bit) in fact not even sure I have known anyone to....although it would depend how long the driver was. Despite the shaft ratings.....The Evo Stiff can handle swing speeds into the 130's.
My swing speed is about 115 on average and I very successfully use the Evolution Regular in a driver...most every other shaft I use will be "labelled as extra stiff" ( unlike you I have a mid release so do not load a shaft the same)

The Evo is a very unique shaft ,,,,the nano technology make the tip extremely stable and tight...I susepect this is why it works for you.....however the butt section is very soft....designed to give it some feel.....if you waggle it , it might feel soft but plays stiff...put it on a frequency meter and the stiff reads like an A flex.....btw so does the Icon FH

It has a completely different profile that the Nrage and especially the Assassin....heck I can play the XX in the Assassin versus the Reg in the Evo....

For someone like yourself with a fast ss and tempo and a late release the profile of the Evo is perfect....that of the Assassin is completely wrong....The Nrage could work but would have to be set up properly...in a fairway wood it would need some good tipping.

Chief.....I think the head and shaft are equally important....both need to be selected with care and matched to each other and the player

Thanks.

I figured you would have to say that about the Nrage since you sold it to me, off of the FGI board.

[Weirfan]

Thanks.

I figured you would have to say that about the Nrage since you sold it to me, off of the FGI board.

yes , but when I sold it to you it was in an 8* SMT 455 driver if I recall.....not in a 5 wood head.............still a pretty stout shaft for mere mortals

[Started2k3]

yes , but when I sold it to you it was in an 8* SMT 455 driver if I recall.....not in a 5 wood head.............still a pretty stout shaft for mere mortals

great ... now you are saying that I will die some day. This and I have to go to the dentist tonight ... Can this day get any worse?

Anyway that is enough thread jacking for me.
Charles

[BC MIST]

Under the Wishon Method I would be classified as a (3, 3, 3) with a swing speed of 117mph (measured with the aforementioned club using one of the radars a Chuck Browns). So I should continue to look for an even stiffer shaft? This is just nuts. I have decided to base all my shaft decisions on feel ... unscientific... yes, but it seems to me to be more consistent and sensible than the current "golf shaft science".

According to Tom Wishon the #1 contribution of the shaft is, in fact, FEEL, so there is nothing wrong with your using that to select a shaft. However, perhaps the number 1 factor should be where the ball goes, and you have indicated that the EVO X has improved your accuracy. If you are happy with this shaft, what would an even stiffer one give you" More FEEL - not likely, more accuracy - not likely. What will give you more accuracy is a better swing, not that I am suggesting the one you have is unsatisfactory, but at some point in time the realization that the greatest contribution to a straight shot is an on line path and a square club face at separation and you are responsible for achieving that.

BTW: Of the 307 shafts on the Wishon software(excluding the stock shafts) the Evolution "S" is 289th in stiffness out of 307 in the tip section and 172nd out of 307 at the butt. If you want the stiffest tipped shaft, try the Aldila NV Proto 70 S, and the Penley ETR Tour X for the butt section.

[Chieflongtee]

quote]Chief.....I think the head and shaft are equally important....both need to be selected with care and matched to each other and the player[/quote][/quote]


Friend of mine is a good slicer. I originally sold him a hand picked Wishon driver with a closed face. He would have to lign up way left to get the ball in the fairway. THEN I got him an offset Cobra 400 SZ closed face driver with a Graffaloy blue(No fitting just a club off the rack) and KABOUM every ball straight down the fairway. A little high but dead straight flight. I agree that a shaft plays an important role but if I have to chose between the 2 I will pick the head first. Didn't you write somewhere that you and offset do not make a good mix.