failure to annouce

[Gary Hill]

A player plays a ball from the teeing ground which may be lost or out of bounds. (Ball #1)

He properly announces and plays a provisional ball which also may be lost or out of bounds. (Ball #2)

He properly announces and plays another provisional ball which may be lost or out of bounds. (Ball #3)

He plays another ball from the teeing ground without announcement. (Ball #4)

What's the ruling?

[el tigre]

Since he failed to announce, Ball #4 is not a provisional ball but the ball in play. All previous balls are deemed to be lost, so he now lies 7 and is penalized one additional stroke plus distance for playing Ball #4 without declaring it a provisional, as per Rule 27-2. He gets to play another ball from the teeing ground, which would be his 9th stroke - or simply give up on golf and take up lawn bowling instead!

[spidey]

Strokes with a provisional ball do not count until the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

The ball in play was the original until the player failed to declare his 4th ball a provisional, at which time his 4th ball became the ball in play.

So, he's playing ball 4 under penalty of stroke and distance from ball 1.

Count 1 for the original ball
Count 1 stroke and distance
Count 1 for ball 4

Player lies 3 strokes with ball 4.
Player cannot play any of the other balls or else he will be playing a wrong ball.

[Gary Hill]

anybody else want to try this on?

nobody is even close yet.

[em69]

He's lost a lot of balls and should quit the hole.

[Gary Hill]

He has not lost any balls so far.

[Kilroy]

I think he'd be lying 7 with ball # 4 in play.

All 3 previous balls count, plus stroke and distance, on each.
Since he did not announce #4 it is the ball in play.
No penalty for not announcing it, it simply is the ball in play redardless of the playability of the previous 3 balls.

There is no point in him shooting himself, as he is sure to miss, and quite probably injure or kill someone else. :crying

[Gary Hill]

A provisional ball bears a direct one-to-one relationship to the ball for which it was provisionally played.

The status of the ball for which the provisional ball was played must be determined before the status of "its" provisional ball can be known.

Ball number #1 must either be lost or out of bounds before its provisional ball (Ball #2) can become the ball in play.
(excluding the possibility that the player has played a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place)

A second provisional ball bears to the first provisional ball the same relationship as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball and so on.

Ball number #2 must either be lost or out of bounds before "its" provisional ball (Ball #3) can become the ball in play.

We know that Ball #4 was NOT played in accordance with Rule 27-2a (Provisional Ball Procedure).
Rule 27-2a states that if this procedure is not followed, the original ball (Ball #3) is deemed to be lost and Ball #4 becomes the ball in play under Rule 27-1 (Ball Lost or Out of Bounds).

Ball #4 was not played provisionally, so Ball #3 can never become the ball in play (Ball #3 is auto-magically lost).

Conclusion:

If Ball #1 is neither lost nor out of bounds, it remains the ball in play and the player lies 1.

If Ball #1 is either lost or out of bounds and Ball #2 is neither lost nor out of bounds, Ball #2 becomes the ball in play and the player lies 3.

If both Ball #1 and Ball #2 are lost or out of bounds, the player lies 7 with Ball #4.
(Ball #3 is lost because the player failed to annouce Ball #4 as a provisional ball).

If Ball #4 is neither lost nor out of bounds, it becomes the ball in play; otherwise, the player must play his 9th stroke from the teeing ground with Ball #5.

[jeff026]

If I hit a tee shot out of bound or in the water, can I drop a ball at the point of entrance or do I declare the ball lost and reload counting 3 off the tee ?

[Gary Hill]

If you hit a ball out of bounds, you must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.

If you hit a ball into a water hazard, you may:
1. Play the ball as it lies; or
2. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played: or
3. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

A ball can never be declared lost.

[jeff026]

setting me straight. I see that scenario happen all the time but rarely see it played correctly as explained

[spidey]

rules sez:
A ball can never be declared lost.

rules quotes:
Rule 27-2a states that if this procedure is not followed, the original ball (Ball #3) is deemed to be lost

Probably a point that needs clarifying. A ball cannot be declared lost, but it may be deemed lost. Probably many golfers confuse those two concepts.

It is possible to have a lost ball without actually looking for it (as in the ball 3's relationship to ball 4 incorrectly played).

Gary... do you think you could list all (or the main) instances when a ball would be deemed lost? ie. where finding the ball would be irrelevant to determining the ball in play.

[Gary Hill]

A ball is "lost'' if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has put another ball into play under the Rules, even though he may not have searched for the original ball; or
c. The player has played any stroke with a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, whereupon the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

There is NO OTHER WAY a ball can be lost !!!!!
This is an important point.
A player cannot "declare" the ball to be lost.
"Deemed to be lost" means lost by the definition above.

As in your example of Rule 27-2a, if a player puts another ball into play, then, by definition ( part b.), the original ball is lost.
It is "deemed" to be lost by the definition of "Lost Ball".
There is no list of instances where a ball is "deemed to be lost".
It can only be "lost" by the above definition.

Example:
You hit your ball into the woods and play a provisional ball.
You look for one minute and then "declare" it lost.
I (your fellow-competitor) continue to search and find it before 5 minutes has elapsed.

Your original ball MUST be the ball in play and the provisional ball MUST be abandoned.
Your "declaration" that it is lost means nothing.

BTW- You cannot prevent me from searching for your ball.

[Kilroy]

Hehehe. I remember Mickelson was pretty upset when the fans did not stop looking for his ball when he asked them to. They found it, and that took the provisional (sitting in the fairway) out of play. It was unplayable, and that forced him back to the tee.

[spidey]

rules sez:
BTW- You cannot prevent me from searching for your ball.

LOL... yes, but I can make it pointless...

either by playing the provisional from where it is likely to be;
or by playing a stroke beyond where it is likely to be;
or by failing to call it a provisional...


Or I can drain the gas out of your cart...

Or tie your shoelaces together...

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by spidey
or by failing to call it a provisional...

Actually, you have brought up a good point.

If you have hit your ball from the teeing ground into an area you know to be "impossible to play from", you can save yourself from someone "finding your ball and having it remain the ball in play by by:

1. failing to announce your next ball from the teeing ground as a provisional ball; or

2. declaring the ball unplayable

Your next shot from the teeing ground would automatically be your third.

Sometimes players are too quick to announce a provisional ball when there are positive they do not want to play the original ball even if they find it.

[Weazl]

Very interesting stuff here. How is it that Gary is the expert?No disrespect meant at all I am just curious as I was baffled by the question myself. I also thought he was playing his 9th stroke and the 4th ball was in play.

[Kilroy]

Gary is a nationally certified RCGA rules official. He certainly is "the expert". He volunteers his time here to help us with rules interpretations. Every now and then he comes up with a doozie like this to challenge us. He also writes all the rules questions for our weekly rules contest.
Just in case I have not said it latley... Thanks Gary

[el tigre]

OK, now I'm definitely confused...

If you have hit your ball from the teeing ground into an area you know to be "impossible to play from", you can save yourself from someone "finding your ball and having it remain the ball in play" by:

1. failing to announce your next ball from the teeing ground as a provisional ball

Isn't that exactly what happened in the original situation you described? When he hit Ball #4 without announcing, hasn't he "put another ball in play under the Rules" as per Rule 27-2a (part b), which would therefore make Balls 1, 2 & 3 "deemed to be lost"?

Or are you saying that only Ball #3 is "deemed to be lost"? In which case, if he finds Ball #1 or Ball #2, can he then play it without incurring any penalty for failing to announce before Ball #4? That doesn't seem right either.

[Gary Hill]

When he hit Ball #4 without announcement, Ball #3 ONLY become lost.

A provisional ball bears a relation only to the ball for which it was provisionally hit.

Rule 27-2a states "the original ball is deemed to be lost".
However, in the case of successive provisional balls, this does NOT mean the original original original ball.
It means the "original ball for which Ball #4 was played" (Ball #3 only).

Maybe you can look at it from this point of view:
If you play only one provisional ball and you find your original ball, then the stroke to play your provisional ball is "automagically" forgotten. True?

In the case of successive provisional balls, if you find Ball #1, then ALL the strokes taken to play successive balls (provisional balls conforming to the Rules and provisional balls not conforming to the Rules) are forgotten. Makes sense to me.

[el tigre]

Wow, that is tricky. If I were him, I'd be looking mighty hard for golf balls!

I'm assuming the player has 5 minutes PER BALL to search for his golf ball (i.e. for Balls 1, 2 and 4). Correct?

[The Shtick]

On most courses around here, you would probably get thrown off the course by the way-to-pressing marshalls for that!

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by el tigre
I'm assuming the player has 5 minutes PER BALL to search for his golf ball (i.e. for Balls 1, 2 and 4). Correct?

Not necessarily.

If all the balls so close together that, in effect, all balls would be searched for simutaneously, a total of 5 minutes for search is allowed.

If one or more of the balls is in a clearly separate area, a further 5 minutes for search would be allowed for each of those areas.

[em69]

...and how do you determine if your balls are close enough that you only get 5 min. for all balls instead of 5 min. each?

[Kilroy]

If one or more of the balls is in a clearly separate area,

[Gary Hill]

There is no specific area or distance. You just use logic.

Example:

If you hit your original ball and your provisional ball say within 10 yards of specific tree and you search a 10 yard diameter circle around the tree for 5 minutes, then you have essentially searched for both balls at the same time.

If you hit your original ball near a specific tree and your provisional ball 50 yards farther, then searching around that tree would not be considered also searching for the provisional. You would be given an additional 5 minutes to search for the provisional.