Wishon's theory

[covanant]

O.k..i'm half way through Wishon's "Search for the perfect club"
and i have to say i'm impressed with this guys aproach to club fitting
What i cant understand is why some shafts cost 20 dollars and others cost 300?
If im fitted lets say for a 60 gram shaft(for my perticular clubhead and grip,tempo etc..)With a shaft that costs 50.00,why would i buy a shaft with the same weight and characteristics at 150.00?
If you look at the Golfworks cat. you will see shafts with identical weights,flex,torque,but at different prices?
Guru's?

[jvincent]

Some of the difference in price is attributable to the actual manufacturing process / materials. Certain shafts will be made with a different mix of materials, and/or use more manufacturing steps, and/or have tighter tolerances. All of these will have a direct effect on cost.

The other, and I'll wager main reason, is simply marketing. There is a believe that expensive equals better so if you produce a shaft that costs $30 to manufacture (making that number up) and you are able to sell it for $300 why wouldn't you?

[covanant]

Some of the difference in price is attributable to the actual manufacturing process / materials. Certain shafts will be made with a different mix of materials, and/or use more manufacturing steps, and/or have tighter tolerances. All of these will have a direct effect on cost.

The other, and I'll wager main reason, is simply marketing. There is a believe that expensive equals better so if you produce a shaft that costs $30 to manufacture (making that number up) and you are able to sell it for $300 why wouldn't you?

Agreed,but why would you buy it?
As a pro. club fitter,wouldnt you have more success selling a client the cheaper shaft versus lets say a 300.00 Diamana?

[jvincent]

Some people just refuse to believe that a cheaper shaft can be as good as a more expensive shaft and they WANT to have the more expensive one whether it helps them or not.

In those situations as a clubmaker you have the option of giving them the more expensive shaft or losing the sale.

[covanant]

Buying this book is the best golf money i have ever spent

[MusicMan]

you are paying for shaft consistancy... all shafts weakin over time. though cheaper shafts weakin much faster than more expensive shafts. example being i will buy a $40 low end shaft frequency it right off the bat and 300 swings later it will be mch less then originally CPM'd. where as more expensive shafts ex: fuji 757 or Diamana are built to withstand pro swing speed and therefore last much long,

when you're a pro you want a shaft that will give the more consistant results cuz who wants to change shafts every week...

i've got a $400 shaft in my driver and there is a serious difference (only if you are properly fitted for one) dont assume hey I'm a 20 handicap and i like what he is saying im gonna go out and buy a reg flex Graphite Design Tour AD just cuz its $320 and therefore should be better for me over the long run... just like buying a driver always get fitted...(just a little side peice for newbie readers)

[jvincent]

you are paying for shaft consistancy... all shafts weakin over time. though cheaper shafts weakin much faster than more expensive shafts.

This is one of the popular myths about expensive shafts and has been proven to be wrong (scientifically) by people like Wishon.

You can pay extra for consistency between two shafts in a set, but any single shaft will not change it's characteristics unless it is damaged.

[rhh7]

I think it's fair to say that there is not necessarily a direct relationship between the cost to manufacture a shaft and its retail price. If a PGA pro wins a televised tournament using a particular shaft, it's going to be an expensive shaft. Similarly, whatever the Long Driving champion uses is going to be expensive.

By the way, I ordered Wishon's new book, "The Search for the Perfect Driver" from Amazon.ca.

[BC MIST]

you are paying for shaft consistancy... all shafts weakin over time. though cheaper shafts weakin much faster than more expensive shafts. example being i will buy a $40 low end shaft frequency it right off the bat and 300 swings later it will be mch less then originally CPM'd. where as more expensive shafts ex: fuji 757 or Diamana are built to withstand pro swing speed and therefore last much long,

Perception is everything. If you believe (or have been led to believe) that what you say above is true, then you MUST go out and buy the most expensive shaft possible because, it IS better, and it will project the ball 40 yards farther and 20 yards straighter, than a cheap UST V-2. And, it will make your playing partners envy you because of the status it has.

However, reality says that while there is some correlation between price and quality (avoid the $10 shafts), what you have said above is a refection of what the influence the marketers from the shaft manufacturing companies have had on you. The greatest influence that a shaft has on your game is feel and trajectory, NOT distance and direction. Distance and direction are determined by how YOU swing the club, not the cost of the shaft.

Example: Bought 20 SK Fiber Tour Trac 80, graphite shafts. 15 had the same frequency, 3 were +1 cpm,and 2 were -1 cpm. All were within 1 gram of each other. How is that for consistency!! BTW: They cost less than $30 each. By the above theory, these shafts would be a detriment to anyone's game because they only cost 30 bucks

I guess if I bought a Nike SUMO,460, with a Fujikura Speeder 757, with a leather wrap grip, instead of my cheap, 3 year old component SMT 455 Deep Bore with its Accuflex Evolution shaft, I would knock 5 strokes off my game. One thing for sure: A great swing with a $30 shaft in the driver will produce a great shot. A lousy swing with a $300 Accra shaft will produce a lousy shot. No myth there.

We should start a "Myth Buster" thread, and put this idea near the top.

[MusicMan]

BC i agree with your thoughts... though i didnt say consistancy within the same line-up of shafts, i only ment it as swing 300 times with the same shaft and it will loose of of its starting specs, where as shafts with differnent technology (more expensive by nature) will not loose anything and therefore be more consistant after 300 swings... just regergitating something that a shaft representaive told me... why you pay more for certain things... its all in the technology that a shaft has..

IE i foget the reports name that lists who is playing what on tour, but i read it and quite a few guys are playing V2's and lesser expensive fuji shafts averageing less than $100, so it proves your point to some degree... i dont think it has to do with marketing... shaft marketing is hard to do, i know i wouldnt play a shaft based on someone playing it on tour etc. i play what works best if it happends to be $400 then so be it, if its $100 thats good too... i am willing to pay ---> if its works

[BC MIST]

BC i agree with your thoughts... though i didnt say consistancy within the same line-up of shafts, i only ment it as swing 300 times with the same shaft and it will loose of of its starting specs, where as shafts with differnent technology (more expensive by nature) will not loose anything and therefore be more consistant after 300 swings... just regergitating something that a shaft representaive told me... why you pay more for certain things... its all in the technology that a shaft has..

I appreciate that you are not the originator of the statement that a shaft will lose something with use. However, your source is a marketer, which means that the "facts" that he spouts are highly suspect, as are similar statements from anyone else who is in retail, be they sales clerks or equipment representitives. The bottom line for both is sales/profits. Tell a golfer that a $80 shaft will perform as well as a $200 one, and if the markup is 100%, then $40 gross profit is obviously much lower than $100. That's how it works. The truth about shaft performance takes a back seat to achieving the bottom line.

Likewise, sales folks at Golftown, for example, go through a training process of sorts, acquiring enough knowledge that know more than the average golfer and can explain certain things to customers. However, in becoming a certified fitter there, there are enough holes/myths in their "knowledge" base that accurate and up-to-date information is not always passed on.. It is not the employees fault as they are just using what they have been taught. There is nothing better than years of experience working with various clubs and shafts, and in learning from the independent engineers who do a lot of experimentation and analysis of equipment

Tom Wishon, IMO, is an exception, as his first love is shaft and club head design. If you have followed his career you may perceive that he is a straight shooter who genuinely wants golfers to play equipment (shafts) that are suited for how they swing. I have used some of his shafts that have weight and frequency profiles identical to much more expensive ones, and the feel/performance is also identical. Major manufacturers of clubs and shafts NEED to have the Touring pros use their equipment because they know golfers are gullible enough that if "Tiger" is using brand "X" then they have to have it too, regardless of whether or not it suits their swing, and in so doing increase company profits.

BTW: I regripped a handful of my clubs for indoor practice and checked the butt frequency before I put the grip on. They were all the same or + or - 1 cpm, from when I originally assembled them. Another myth busted. "Believe NONE of what you hear and HALF of what you see."

[covanant]

In the book,Tom goes on to say that a shaft will never loose any of its playing charicteristics unless it becomes damaged(IE:graphite frayed)
Or kink in a steel shaft etc.
As far as retailers go,i believe their primary job is to move overstocked items,but i could be wrong because alot of stores wont carry more than a couple of really expensive shafts.

[MusicMan]

I'm a protege of 4 years of taking marketing major related courses in school and we are told to do the best you can to sell the product without extending the truths too far (IE make the consumer thing they need the product) and i guess this is true then it comes to my original post and BC's response. i guess then it doesnt matter what field your in golf, automotive, home furnishing, "dont trust a salesman as far as you can throw him"

though going back to my previous statment about wanting the person to believe they need the product is from an adverstising perspective. i believe that a person no matter what they are buying should never be talked into something face to face. especially in golf equipment! lol. cuz then they come back saying you talked me into this and its a peice of %^&*. i'm proud to say this has never happned to me

[covanant]

I'm a protege of 4 years of taking marketing major related courses in school and we are told to do the best you can to sell the product without extending the truths too far (IE make the consumer thing they need the product) and i guess this is true then it comes to my original post and BC's response. i guess then it doesnt matter what field your in golf, automotive, home furnishing, "dont trust a salesman as far as you can throw him"

though going back to my previous statment about wanting the person to believe they need the product is from an adverstising perspective. i believe that a person no matter what they are buying should never be talked into something face to face. especially in golf equipment! lol. cuz then they come back saying you talked me into this and its a peice of %^&*. i'm proud to say this has never happned to me

An honest salesman

[rhh7]

With a gift certificate from my daughter, I bought "On Desire, Why We Want What We Want", by William B. Irvine, Professor of Philosophy at Wright State University in Dayton Ohio.

"Irvine concludes that the best way to attain lasting happiness is not to change the world around us or our place in it, but to change ourselves. If we can convince ourselves to want what we already have, we can dramatically enhance our happiness."

I have a grand total of $265.00 to spend on golf equipment. When that is gone, there will be no more until next Christmas. So I am hoping to pick up a used set of irons, and perhaps a driver and a 3 Wood. But these "things" will not make me any happier than I am now.

I do believe that I would enjoy improving at golf. And different clubs, better tuned for my specific needs and abilities, offer at least the promise of lower scores. We shall see. Meanwhile, my goal for this year is to grow in contentment.

[BC MIST]

i believe that a person no matter what they are buying should never be talked into something face to face. especially in golf equipment! lol. cuz then they come back saying you talked me into this and its a peice of %^&*. i'm proud to say this has never happned to me

Good for you. I am sure that you know that we golfers are a gullible lot and it would take very little convincing to sell the latest technological advances to an unsuspecting public. But, if it does not work, the bad news spreads fast.

On the other hand, being 100% honest, helping golfers to understand what is important and encouraging them to buy only what suits their current needs, may reduce the profit margin now, but, this kind of customer service is appreciated by most. When this happens, the good news gets out there, too, and, your customer of today will be a repeat customer tomorrow and he will likely bring along some friends.

[MusicMan]

there have been many people ask me for help, and there have been a few times where what people want to buy isnt going to be benificial to their game and i have told them that "you do not need this"... just the kinda guy i am... everyone thinks they need the most expnesive thing, but in reality they dont

[Weirfan]

you are paying for shaft consistancy... all shafts weakin over time. though cheaper shafts weakin much faster than more expensive shafts. example being i will buy a $40 low end shaft frequency it right off the bat and 300 swings later it will be mch less then originally CPM'd. where as more expensive shafts ex: fuji 757 or Diamana are built to withstand pro swing speed and therefore last much long,

when you're a pro you want a shaft that will give the more consistant results cuz who wants to change shafts every week...

i've got a $400 shaft in my driver and there is a serious difference (only if you are properly fitted for one) dont assume hey I'm a 20 handicap and i like what he is saying im gonna go out and buy a reg flex Graphite Design Tour AD just cuz its $320 and therefore should be better for me over the long run... just like buying a driver always get fitted...(just a little side peice for newbie readers)

please no offence, as I read later that this is a quote of some sort and not your own opinion....BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE AT ALL AND COULD BE VERY MISLEADING TO SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW BETTER.

Shaft manufacturing can play a role in pricing but there are not many differences in technique to account for it.
Yes, and most certainly as with anything some companies will make better shafts than others....this really is not the reason for price variances.

Some of the best quality and most consistent shafts I have ever tested and used are the least expensive...namely Mercury and SK Fiber.

There are different grades in graphite fiber , but then again Mercury used some of the best but had some of the lowest prices anywhere???

Yes some shafts are better made, and cost more to make and paint etc...but I have seen Speeders dance around on my laser like no other shafts.....so as with anything and everything there are market forces as well as innacurate perceptions at play.

Some claim low torque and are not actually....Accra is one of the few who's low torque claim and engineering is fo real

How did Graphite design increase there prices 3 or 4 fold in a year then drop them down again???? $$$$$$$$$$$$$

I have used $300 Accra shafts and $ 20 Mercury shafts just as successfully

[Weirfan]

Buying this book is the best golf money i have ever spent

A great primer...
If u you tinker with clubs .....for more detail and a really awesome read get his Commonsense Clubfitting book...I am reading it for the second time know since Christamas and it is almost 500 pages...it is a follow-up to his famous Practical Clubfitting Manual ( that I have also read twice) that was released in 1996

[Chieflongtee]

I have used $300 Accra shafts and $ 20 Mercury shafts just as successfully

Just bought a rapport filament wound shaft last week. No dancing around.Frequency labeled on the butt.
$19. including tax

[sensfan63]

The greatest influence that a shaft has on your game is feel and trajectory, NOT distance and direction. Distance and direction are determined by how YOU swing the club, not the cost of the shaft.

We should start a "Myth Buster" thread, and put this idea near the top.

This is the second time that I've read this quote from you, and I find it misleading. I don't think you can separate distance and direction from shaft choice. Right now, I use a GD YS-9.1X. Are you saying that if I went down to a YS-6X and hit it all over the place, that it would be my swing's fault and not the shaft?

[jvincent]

What BC is talking about is cause and effect.

If you put two different shafts into a robot tester, you will not see a statistically significant difference in distance. This is because robots swing the same every time.

Put it into a human's hands however, and they will start to swing differently based on the way the shaft feels in their hands.

As an example, some people hit the ball better with a softer shaft because they can feel it flexing at the top/start of their downswing and instinctively back off from swinging too hard. End result is often better contact and more distance.

[sensfan63]

What BC is talking about is cause and effect.

If you put two different shafts into a robot tester, you will not see a statistically significant difference in distance. This is because robots swing the same every time.

Put it into a human's hands however, and they will start to swing differently based on the way the shaft feels in their hands.

As an example, some people hit the ball better with a softer shaft because they can feel it flexing at the top/start of their downswing and instinctively back off from swinging too hard. End result is often better contact and more distance.

Maybe "cause and effect" for a bad player...but put a softer shaft into my driver and I GUARANTEE that I won't drive it as straight as I do now.

Basically this argument would say that if Ernie Els swung his driver with ANY SHAFT the results would be the same. This "theory" (and it's a horrible one) totally undercuts the whole philosophy of clubfitting, does it not?

[jvincent]

Depends on how you define a good player.

I can pretty much guarantee you if I put an A-flex noodle shaft into Ernie's hands he'd still hit the ball about 10 miles past me and spank me by a dozen strokes or more. Good golfers are able to adjust to what they are feeling and compensate. Mere mortals like us cannot and probably shouldn't try. It's hard enough for us to perfect one swing much less multiple swings.

Of course there will be an optimal shaft for everyone and fitting is about finding that. If a shaft performs well for a golfer it should not matter what the absolute flex (or flex profile) is. All that matters is that it is the right flex for the golfer.

For some people a very stiff shaft will work for them. For others it won't. Those two golfers may have the exact same clubhead speed at impact but one may have a short quick swing (hitter) and the other may have long fluid swing (swinger).

The point is that at impact all shafts are essentially neutral in terms of how they affect the ball flight. If a golfer can't get a shaft to work for them it's not the shaft's fault, but the golfers.

[BC MIST]

This is the second time that I've read this quote from you, and I find it misleading. I don't think you can separate distance and direction from shaft choice. Right now, I use a GD YS-9.1X. Are you saying that if I went down to a YS-6X and hit it all over the place, that it would be my swing's fault and not the shaft?

Going from 1 to the other that you mentioned would NOT result in the ball going all over the place. If it did, it would be you. However, I have also stated on this forum that the results may vary depending on how one swings. If you have a fast tempo and transition and a very late release, then I believe that more individual differences would be apparent. My swing is more "smooth", in transition and tempo and even though my release is fairly late, I have similar results with ANY flex of shaft, from L to X. Believe me, I have wasted a pile of money doing this experimentation.

If you have a good read of Wishon's books, "Search..." and the club fitting book you will find that my comments are just a reflection of his. Distance and direction are still MINOR club fitting factors when it comes to shaft selection and as JV indicated above, if a golfer senses a difference in feel he may change his swing in time and that may affect the accuracy. I have done my own experiments with shafts of different flexes and my Beltronics SS device, and for me, there is ZERO difference in club head speed between L and X flexes.

Maybe "cause and effect" for a bad player...but put a softer shaft into my driver and I GUARANTEE that I won't drive it as straight as I do now.
Basically this argument would say that if Ernie Els swung his driver with ANY SHAFT the results would be the same. This "theory" (and it's a horrible one) totally undercuts the whole philosophy of clubfitting, does it not?

You may think the theory is a horrible one, but one point I make trying to make is that, on one hand there may be differences in performance from different flexes of shafts, but on the other, it is my perception that golfers think the differences are a lot greater than they really are. With time, money and the right equipment, I think I could prove that the theory is closer to fact than horrible. Because Ernie El's swing is smooth, I believe that a lot of different shafts would work OK for him. However, if he had a Sergio Garcia type swing, with an increase in lag created at the transition, a softer shaft would not work.

The other point of importance is that we are still generalizing about the flex of a shaft calling it an "X" or "S" whatever. We now know that WHERE a shaft is stiff or flexible affects feel and trajectory, and that manufacturers can/are making shafts with huge differences in flex profiles. For example: My Accuflex Evolution is very soft in the butt and very stiff in the tip, which suits my smooth transition, my hands ahead of the ball at impact and my wish NOT to hit the ball high on a normal swing.

Lastly, I have played with too large a number of golfers over the years, from average golfers to some very, very good ones, and when they miss, you can see why in their swings. When I watch golf on TV, I can predict from what I see in their swings, which direction the ball is going to go, with an accuracy rate of about 80%. I still say, it ain't the shaft, it's the golfer.

[sensfan63]

I concede that my example of GD YS9 vs. YS6 probably wasn't the best one. But, let me ask this...

I went to the YS9 about a year ago, and it wasn't before I had gone through about 4 or 5 other shafts. Specifically, I had huge problems with the Grafalloy Blue and the Aldila NV and NVS. Why was that? My bad golf swing that I put on JUST those shafts? And then I made good swings with the YS9. I just can't believe that. It doesn't make sense. It wasn't the distance that was affected, but the direction. They all felt fine. But the YS9 was easily the best of them all.

So, can you explain that? I just have a hard time believing that I would "change" my swing because the shaft felt different. When you're swinging about 115mph, it's hard to "change" anything.

I know that you believe Tom Wishon, and for the most part so do I. Especially about the graphite shafts not losing their consistency. But for players with higher-than-average swing speeds (110 mph +), it does make a difference what shaft you play. As the swing speed decreases, so does the reliance on a specific shaft.

[BC MIST]

I went to the YS9 about a year ago, and it wasn't before I had gone through about 4 or 5 other shafts. Specifically, I had huge problems with the Grafalloy Blue and the Aldila NV and NVS. Why was that? My bad golf swing that I put on JUST those shafts? And then I made good swings with the YS9. I just can't believe that. It doesn't make sense. It wasn't the distance that was affected, but the direction. They all felt fine. But the YS9 was easily the best of them all.

So, can you explain that? I just have a hard time believing that I would "change" my swing because the shaft felt different. When you're swinging about 115mph, it's hard to "change" anything.

I know that you believe Tom Wishon, and for the most part so do I. Especially about the graphite shafts not losing their consistency. But for players with higher-than-average swing speeds (110 mph +), it does make a difference what shaft you play. As the swing speed decreases, so does the reliance on a specific shaft.

Question: In looking at the Graphite Design website they have a YS5+, YS6+, YS7+ series of shafts, but no YS9's that you mentioned above. Where did you get your YS9?

From your info above you have concluded that with all the shafts that you tried there was no difference in distance, which confirms part of my "horrible" theory that flex does not affect distance in particular, and direction. Most golfers believe and salesman sell the fact that a softer shaft produces longer shots. If this was true every golfer would be playing the most flexible shaft possible in order to get mote distance. This, of course, is horse feathers.

My explanation of your increase in accuracy with the YS9 is this: I have none. I can only guess and I won't, but obviously, if you feel that your swings are identical regardless of the shaft installed, there is another factor at play that causes your accuracy to go up. What do you think it is? Did you or your club maker do any measuring of the stiffness of the shafts that you tried, to see if that said anything? The label on the shaft is meaningless, so there has to be something measurable, that caused the difference.

In an above post I conceded that HOW you swing down at the transition would have some affect on what shaft you should have. With a fast transition a stiffer tipped shaft is best and one that has a swing speed rating at the lower end of your 115 mph range. If I was young and strong instead of old and weak and could muster 115 mph, my shaft would be much more flexible in the butt than yours and at the lower end of the 105 to 115 mph range.
Now, a friend of mine creates more lag than Ben Hogan or Sergio Garcia ever did/does, and yet I out drive him all the time. He still needs a much stiffer butt than me, even though my SS is higher than his. My point is I don't think that it is the high swing speed that is significant but HOW you swing.

[sensfan63]

Question: In looking at the Graphite Design website they have a YS5+, YS6+, YS7+ series of shafts, but no YS9's that you mentioned above. Where did you get your YS9?

From your info above you have concluded that with all the shafts that you tried there was no difference in distance, which confirms part of my "horrible" theory that flex does not affect distance in particular, and direction. Most golfers believe and salesman sell the fact that a softer shaft produces longer shots. If this was true every golfer would be playing the most flexible shaft possible in order to get mote distance. This, of course, is horse feathers.

My explanation of your increase in accuracy with the YS9 is this: I have none. I can only guess and I won't, but obviously, if you feel that your swings are identical regardless of the shaft installed, there is another factor at play that causes your accuracy to go up. What do you think it is? Did you or your club maker do any measuring of the stiffness of the shafts that you tried, to see if that said anything? The label on the shaft is meaningless, so there has to be something measurable, that caused the difference.

In an above post I conceded that HOW you swing down at the transition would have some affect on what shaft you should have. With a fast transition a stiffer tipped shaft is best and one that has a swing speed rating at the lower end of your 115 mph range. If I was young and strong instead of old and weak and could muster 115 mph, my shaft would be much more flexible in the butt than yours and at the lower end of the 105 to 115 mph range.
Now, a friend of mine creates more lag than Ben Hogan or Sergio Garcia ever did/does, and yet I out drive him all the time. He still needs a much stiffer butt than me, even though my SS is higher than his. My point is I don't think that it is the high swing speed that is significant but HOW you swing.

I asked for the YS9, I don't know why it's not listed. It's an older shaft, not like the new "electric blue" color with some silver in it. It's navy blue throughout.

To answer your question, I didn't have a "clubmaker" fitting me, I simply tried a lot of different shafts and the YS9 was the one that worked for me. I totally agree with you that shaft labels are meaningless, but I disagree with you that there had to be something "measurable" that caused the difference. I believe that - and I guess I have to concede that AT SOME SWING SPEED OR SOME SPEED OF TRANSITION (that's not even a term, I know) there exists a wide range of shafts that would work for a certain individual - there exists one shaft profile that works best for a player. For me, it's the YS9. I haven't tried any and all shafts, but there are probably a few other shafts that would work well for me too. But there are definitely others that do not work.

BTW I agree somewhat with your comments about distance not being affected by shaft selection. But again, there will be some shafts that hit it farther than others (most will be in the small range, ie. 4 or 5 yards). But I don't believe there are any that will give you 40 yards, or anything like that.

[BC MIST]

I totally agree with you that shaft labels are meaningless, but I disagree with you that there had to be something "measurable" that caused the difference. I believe that - and I guess I have to concede that AT SOME SWING SPEED OR SOME SPEED OF TRANSITION (that's not even a term, I know) there exists a wide range of shafts that would work for a certain individual - there exists one shaft profile that works best for a player. For me, it's the YS9. I haven't tried any and all shafts, but there are probably a few other shafts that would work well for me too. But there are definitely others that do not work.

If there is a profile that works for you or if the shaft has some other characteristic that makes it better for you, then those differences have to be measurable. Unless it is colour.

If this shaft works for you, then finding the frequency every 5" from butt to "tip," and its weight, would likely make it easier to choose a replacement, if it was necessary.