Measuring devices allowed by GAO

[Kilroy]

Prohibiting EMDs puts EMD users at a disadvantage in a handicapped tourney. No thanks.

You got if Big Guy! The only way it would be an advantage would be if a guy like you DOD NOT use his rangefinder during handicapped rounds and then pulled it out during a tournament.

[1972Apex]

Prohibiting EMDs puts EMD users at a disadvantage in a handicapped tourney. No thanks.

Yes, if you use a rangefinder all the time and then are not allowed to use it in a handicapped tournament, it would be a definite disadvantage.

[jeffc]

Where does it say that?

makes sense. If you have 15 clubs in your bag at the first tee and discover one before you tee off you are fine, but afterwards, you are penalized.

[LobWedge]

Pro Caddies often go out before the round and measure with everything available to create the yardage books. Why would you have an issue with measuring stuff with an EMD minutes (or hours or days) prior to teeing off in a competition where they were prohibited?

Actually, my question was more of a semantic one. I was asking about the status of using a prohibited version of an EMD to take a measurement on the 1st tee, prior to teeing off.

Let me ask you this. What if you were competing in a tournament, and during your round your EMD "craps out". Should you be allowed to replace it? What if now you're the only player in the field without one? Do all the other competitors suddenly have an advantage over you, or is it just bad luck?

[Kilroy]

using a prohibited version of an EMD to take a measurement on the 1st tee, prior to teeing off.

Good to go, by the book either way.

during your round your EMD "craps out".

My equipment is my responsibilty. That is a no brainer.

[ironmaster15213]

I love my rangefinder cause I'm really anal about yardages, I spend silly amounts of time learning my yardages with each club using a distance caddy(the large contraption that they use at the golf shows to tell you how far you hit the ball, usually to the right of where your teeing your ball from.) Anyway there's a new contraption on the market call a Zelocity pure contact portable launch monitor and it kicks *****, borrowed one from a pro I know and it is really accurate down to about 21 yards. You can set it up for carry yards (Meters) or total yards. It also shows ball speed (cool).my buddy was hitting 164 m.p.h. ball speed with his driver pretty consistently but I couldn't get over 150 cause of my bad knee(that and I'm an old fart) . So getting back to the thread, I would find a way to learn your yardages before you buy a rangefinder or you will be very frustrated, also if your going to get a rangefinder please get a good one that's powerful enough to pick up a flag on a pin from 220 or more. I use a bushnell pro yardage 1000 and It's the cats meow,I got mine for 186 dollars on E bay (U.S),I also saw a Zelocity pure contact go for 180 (U.S.)on ebay yesterday.

[Gary Hill]

Where does it say that?

Stipulated Round
The “stipulated round’’ consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence unless otherwise authorized by the Committee.

Ball in Play
A ball is “in play’’ as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground.

The stipulated round starts when the player has made a stroke on the first teeing ground.

[LobWedge]

My equipment is my responsibilty. That is a no brainer.

Okay, but you didn't answer the question. The rules say that you can replace a club that has been damaged during the course of normal play. Should the rule be the same for your EMD?

[jvincent]

There's no rule against replacing your bag, shoes, towel or other pieces of equipment during a round, so replacing an EMD (or battery) would be no different.

[Chieflongtee]

I use a bushnell pro yardage 1000 and It's the cats meow,I got mine for 186 dollars on E bay (U.S),I also saw a Zelocity pure contact go for 180 (U.S.)on ebay yesterday.

Is this the one you're talking about?



http://cgi.ebay.com/Zelocity-PureCon...em160057573202

[ironmaster15213]

Is this the one you're talking about?



http://cgi.ebay.com/Zelocity-PureCon...em160057573202

....yes, and it is better by far than the distance caddy. If you want to practice hitting different length shots into a net this is the one to get. Retails 300 U.S.

[Andy4Par]

Very interesting debate! I am looking into purchasing a rangefinder myself. I don't play tournaments or money games. I am more a feel player, but I do have trouble getting accurate yardages especially inside 100 yards or if I am left of right of the markers. I am too lazy to pace off distances outside of 10 yards. I would buy a rangefinder to hopefully further my quest to shoot lower scores. I'm not saying its going to help me execute great shots but it can't hurt can it? I buy the best balls, clubs, clothes/shoes, towels, tees, ball markers, bug repellant, beer(1)....why not a rangefinder. My question, and I apologize if this is thread jacking, what is the consensus for best model type. ie. ease of use, size, quality, price etc.

[jvincent]

IMHO, don't pay money for a rangefinder that's good to 1000 yards. Other than Dick, nobody hits it that far. Outside of 200 yards you don't really need to be that accurate anyway.

Make sure that the one you get has a "scan" feature because it can sometimes be hard to pick up a flag and scan helps.

I've got the Bushnell Yardage Pro, the one that you can use one-handed, and quite like it. Picked it up with my Aeroplan points that were just sitting there so it didn't cost me anything either.

[Farzin]

....yes, and it is better by far than the distance caddy. If you want to practice hitting different length shots into a net this is the one to get. Retails 300 U.S.

I am assuming that you don't actually have to swing through a ball ''hit the ball'. Deos it measure the club head speed and gives you a reading. I am asking because I have no place to hit the ball in my garage but I like to swing my clubs once in a while.
Any other info like open, close club head?

[ironmaster15213]

I am assuming that you don't actually have to swing through a ball ''hit the ball'. Deos it measure the club head speed and gives you a reading. I am asking because I have no place to hit the ball in my garage but I like to swing my clubs once in a while.
Any other info like open, close club head?

.......No it doesn't analyse club head speed,(get a swingmate for about 80 U.S. for that purpose). The Zelocity detects the ball and launch angle, that's why it will tell you only ball speed and distance carry or total distance (probably has a formula to get that yardage from carry distance) I believe it needs about 8 or 9 feet to read the ball so you probably couldn't use it in your garage.

[LobWedge]

Prohibiting EMDs puts EMD users at a disadvantage in a handicapped tourney. No thanks.

How so? You're competing on the same level, under the same conditions as everyone else. IMO, your EMD gives you an advantage over those who don't have them.

[Kilroy]

In a handicapped event...

If my handicap is based on my play while using them and you take it away, I am without one of the tools I regulary use.

If a player's 'cap is based on play while not using them and then suddenly he gets one, he will then have better information and gain the advantage we speak of, but only until his handicap catches up. So where's the advantage then?

ie: So Norm gets an EMD and his 'cap drops from 17 to 14. He'd be a 17 without it, so take it away and he's losing 3 strokes, because he's playing the event as a 14. That's a disadvantage.

It would be the same as saying he has to play a ball that doesn't fly consistant distances. Just "guess" how far it goes.
OK I exagerate but I think you get the point.

[ironmaster15213]

Is this the one you're talking about?



http://cgi.ebay.com/Zelocity-PureCon...em160057573202

....I bid on two of these monitors on ebay that were ending about the same time, I bid low on the first one and higher on the second one. Can you believe it ???? I won them both, one with a ridiculously low bid. Now I can read how far I hit the ball in stereo.

[TourIQ]

Great NEWS, and ALL I can say is 'it's about time'.

Now they should outlaw the 'overlength putters' that are anchored to your body ...

[BC MIST]

Great NEWS, and ALL I can say is 'it's about time'.
Now they should outlaw the 'overlength putters' that are anchored to your body ...

Starting golf 45 years ago, there were no yardage markers so determining yardages was a skill. That skill significantly diminished with the advent of 150 markers. EMD’s make it even easier to determine yardages. Similarly, a better golf ball, higher MOI golf clubs, and superior golf course conditioning have all made the game less skillful. That's reality. However, despite all the technological progress, the average score of today’s golfers, is less than one stroke lower than decades ago. Why? Because learning how to swing properly is still 98% of the game and likely always will be, so the sum of all the advances is part of that remaining 2%, and that includes LONG PUTTERS.

In a good round of golf, my iron club/ball contact is ideal only about 50% of the time, and yet my handicap is still in the 0 range. So for a 10, 15, 20 or 25 handicap golfer, whose ideal club/ball contact is likely to be less than my 50%, what good is knowing that he is 138 yards from the pin, when he lacks to skill to hit a shot 138 yards, most of the time? My conclusion is that all the advances made in things equipment related, are advantageous mostly to the most skillful of golfers, Tour pros, top amateurs, and only slightly more advantageous, if at all, to the rest of us. So protesting the use of EMD’s is much ado about nothing.

Having said that, my gut still does NOT want these devices used in CITY, PROVINCIAL and NATIONAL gross championships. For everything else – who cares? I know its hypocritical.

Now, when one encourages the use of EMD’s, which may give an advantage, why would one want long putters to be banned, if the perception is that they may be advantageous, too? Now, this is hypocritical. Golfers use long and belly putters, NOT to gain an advantage but in hopes of resurrecting lost, traditional length, putting skills. How many belly putters are still used on TOUR or anywhere else? How many long putters? These creatures are disadvantageous to most and only level the playing field for the rest. Like EMD’s, and high MOI clubs, let the golfers enjoy any advantage they may perceive that they have, even if it is only in their heads. If they have not yet figured out that low scores are determined by good swing and putting mechanics, let them believe that other things can, as having fun playing golf by the rules, is the only thing that is important.

[Kilroy]

So protesting the use of EMD’s is much ado about nothing.

Having said that, my gut still does NOT want these devices used in CITY, PROVINCIAL and NATIONAL gross championships. For everything else – who cares? I know its hypocritical.

I don't understand how they differ. Are you advocating a tiered rules structure for golf?

[sensfan63]

I own a rangefinder, the one with the slope measurement, and it's a great tool. It's a lot easier and a lot faster to get yardages when you're riding in a cart and want to play fast.
What I find that it does, however, is it makes you forget about the distance to the middle of the green (often an important piece of info, since middle of the green is usually a decent spot to be), or it makes you focus solely on the distance to the pin, and maybe you forget about something else important - ie., maybe it's a back hole location, it's only 3 steps from the back of the green, and going over the green is extremely penal. In that situation, you want to MAKE SURE you don't go over the green, and your target, depending on your distance, should probably be about 15 feet short of the hole.
I believe that rangefinders are fine for regular rounds (ie. not tournaments), but just feel that it's a sight to cringe at if you're on the final hole of a big event, and all everyone sees is three guys in the fairway with little black boxes attached to their heads, trying to get that flag in the crosshairs.
One thing I can tell you - you'll never see rangefinders on the PGA Tour. Sponsors will not ante up $8 million to see that sight that I just described. In their opinion, it doesn't look professional, and for crying out loud, how long does it take to pace off a yardage from a fixed point that is marked in the yardage book, and then look at the pin sheet and do some math?
Finally, to all those who think that it's not a skill to do all that...last year I was playing in a tournament. We were playing a par-four and my FC and I drove it in the fairway right beside each other. We had about 145 yards into a stiff breeze. He was away, and proceeded to rifle it AT LEAST 30 yards over the green. I rechecked my yardage because that made me think twice. Still 145 yards. So I hit a nice, low 8 iron about 12 feet right of the hole. While we were walking up to the green, FC asked me what I hit...I said 8 iron. How far did you have? 145. He looked back in his book, started laughing, and told me he added 13 yards instead of subtracting 13 yards from the sprinkler head. He had hit a 5 iron.
This happens AT LEAST once or twice per year in my group. I don't think I've ever done it. But tournament golf is such a mental grind that all aspects of a player's emotions are challenged, and when a player loses concentration for just a few seconds, things like this can happen. The human element is part of the game, and I believe rangefinders, while good for recreational use, take away from that human element.

[sensfan63]

I don't understand how they differ. Are you advocating a tiered rules structure for golf?

Probably not, but how about a Local Rule prohibiting EMDs in all tournaments that BC MIST talks about? Nothing wrong with that.

[AAA]

Probably not, but how about a Local Rule prohibiting EMDs in all tournaments that BC MIST talks about? Nothing wrong with that.

They are already prohibited in ALL tournaments UNLESS there is Local Rule allowing them.

[BC MIST]

I don't understand how they differ. Are you advocating a tiered rules structure for golf?

We already have a tiered system for golf as EMD's are NOT allowed in tournaments except, as AAA indicated, there is a local rule allowing them. That is the general "rule," GAO excepted. It was indicated elsewhere that because the GAO will allow EMD's in 2007, that GQ will follow suit. Possibly, but keep in mind that for handicapping purposes the GAO has an "active season" from April 15 to October 31, which makes sense, but GQ's "active season" is from April 1 to NOVEMBER 30, which does not. With this kind of logic, GC may NOT even consider a change.

As I indicated above I have no objection to these devices being used in "everyday" golf, as they are not tremendously advantageous. However, having played in several of the three kinds of tournaments I mentioned above, I just cannot imagine a Graham Cooke, Warren Sye, Greg Olson (past Canadian Amateur Champions) or a VJ Singh, walking to their ball in the middle of the fairway of the 72nd hole, and pulling out their rangefinder to get a yardage.

[Kilroy]

I just cannot imagine a Graham Cooke, Warren Sye, Greg Olson (past Canadian Amateur Champions) or a VJ Singh, walking to their ball in the middle of the fairway of the 72nd hole, and pulling out their rangefinder to get a yardage.

True. They would ask their caddies and expect accurate numbers.

[sensfan63]

True. They would ask their caddies and expect accurate numbers.

And that's where the HUMAN ELEMENT stays constant. There is the possibilty of making a mistake, and that's where the inherent skill lies.

[Farzin]

Very funny how knowing the distance is human error. I asked at beginning of this thread 'how knowing the exact distance to target is not a part of this game." Not knowing the distance is human error. knowing it is essential to club selection and making skilled shot. unless you like watching the caddies and the pros pacing the course back and force then take away the yardage book with every details of the course and the greens layout from the pro's and see how the game is played. You will love watching that. If walking up and down the fairway is skill, then those who are not in favour of EMDs being allowed must be very highly skilled players compare to the rest that like to know the yardage without looking for sprinkle heads, yelling across the fairway asking , "Do you see a yardage marker any where?" or not pacing 30 yards back and forth to get the yardage. What is gone wrong here? Some like to spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, fitting, taking lessons altering lie and loft, jumping on every new gimmick that comes out . But it is very hard for them to digest that EMDs are for making educated shots and playing better. I had the opportunity to play with one of the guys on this board a few times this summer who was carrying one of this EMDs. I did see for myself how helpful it was in speeding up the game and taking the guess work out and adding more fun to it. I do not have one. It might be for whatever reason but I shouldn't be asking other people not to use them because it is a disadvantage to me. So is I can not buy a new driver, new clubs and shafts as the new modeless come out. They are probably much better than my outmoded clubs. Do I cry for being disadvantaged to those guys who can and have them. I haven't been fitted yet. Took me 3 years to change a shaft on my driver for a used one. Am I at disadvantage to the other guys. maybe I am, but I don't ask others not to get fit or change clubs or buy state of the art shafts. Do what ever that makes you play better and let the people do whatever is best for them. And that's what it is for pro's. 'Yardage books'' details every piece of course and the greens. Do you have one of those books every time you play? if not then the EMD is the answer if not then keep pacing the course but stop crying foul. By the way a pro's yardage book is a measuring device but it is not electronic. and anybody who thinks that he is a pro caliber player, should be playin with them and there EMD's are not allowed.

[sensfan63]

In the last ten or so posts, nobody is "crying foul" or complaining about EMDs. In fact, we are saying that they are fine for recreational use. The point lies in their use in tournaments, and especially high-level tournaments.

[Farzin]

I understand sensfan69.
My point is directed at amateur tournament organizers and golf committees in particular QC. Not that anybody cares.
As long as Amateur golf is what we are discussing about. They should allow the usage of EMDs regardles. It is not going to alter any amateur golfers livelyhood, although I doubt it if it would have any effect on pro tour players either. But if you leave it to the sole discretion of QC, 'and not taking into account the general direction of CPGA that permits the usage of this devices by amature golfers conditional to committee approval', they would also prohibit the use of English language at the golf courses as well.
égalité pour moi, merci

And that concludes my ranting.