Classified ads rule modification

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 09:05 AM

You may post ONE SET of clubs for sale or trade per 6 month period. You may post twice per six month period to sell individual clubs.

This will not be enforced religiously, however if a person seems to be standing out, it will be easy to check if they have crossed this line.

This should be enough to satisfy the player who likes to try new clubs, yet keep the dealers and clubmakers form hiding behind the "I just like to trade often" mask.

If you need to trade more than that, please use ebay.

**fireice** · 04-03-2003 09:50 AM

This seems fair Dan, for those that have "lots of sales", Ebay is your answer as it should be for dealers/etc. It's just too bad you it had to come to this.

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 09:58 AM

While I certainly understand the reason for these rules Dan, it's unfortunate that it has come to this. It really hurts the true club afficionados on this board and the buyers as well.
I, for example, change clubs almost as often as I change shirts. When I change one of those shirts I would like to have the opportunity to offer the club or clubs to someone local at the same price or less than I paid for them. There's no profit involved for me whatsover and I am certainly not a dealer.
I have no problem with disposing of my castoffs on Ebay or on the GEA in the U.S. and I'm sure other die hard club switchers also have no problem selling their clubs that way. But it's unfortunate that local buyers don't have first crack at them.

**cruxradio** · 04-03-2003 11:27 AM

I disagree with this policy for a number of reasons.

It's a benefit to everyone involved to be able to buy and sell clubs on here. What would be the purpose of limiting it?

Some people use this board to sell clubs on a regular basis, I find it really convinient to have a broad selection of equipment on here, and you don't have to pay the overhead of ebay or local stores.

Because of the anonymous nature of the Internet, you can't even enforce this policy properly. People can use multiple email, multiple phone numbers or names to easily circumvent this policy.

Edit:
I didn't at first realize how much dealers are really selling on here, every single week. With that in mind, there should be some restriction on the amount of equipment sold. Howabout something inbetween such as 5 or 6 clubs and a couple of sets per season?

**RICO** · 04-03-2003 11:35 AM

Like Proforged, I think this is an unfortunate rule. The only one's that will be hurt are the buyers; potential new golfers or those just looking for some quality clubs without paying a lot.

I usually enjoyed my interactions with other members who purchased my cast offs and always hoped they were happy with their purchases. I have certainly never made a profit on anything I sold on this board and to be honest my unsold items usually were traded at Chuck's for more than I was asking for here. So now buyers can go to Chuck's and pay their marked up prices.

**el tigre** · 04-03-2003 12:07 PM

I have to agree with both RICO and cruxradio on this one.

A quick perusal of the forum would indicate that this rule would eliminate about 60 - 70% of the clubs that are made available on this site because the sellers have reached their limit.

In addition to myself, regular forum contributors such as RICO, Andre Cantin, big easy, proforged, jim robin, golfdoc and many others have reached their limit and are now prohibited from selling on this site by this rule until some of their previous postings expire.

IMO, this is a classic case of the majority being penalized for the actions of a few. It is buyers that stand to lose the most - not sellers. As a regular ebay user, I have no problem selling excess clubs there - but like proforged I prefer local buyers to get first crack at them.

**Michael** · 04-03-2003 03:32 PM

I tend to agree with the above posters, this is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater and six months is a long time. I have been known to try 3 different drivers or putters over the golf season and sell the ones I don't like. Any chance you will modify this new rule????

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 03:35 PM

I have been known to try 3 different drivers or putters over the golf season and sell the ones I don't like

Re read the rule - this is fine

You may post ONE SET of clubs for sale or trade per 6 month period. You may post twice per six month period to sell individual clubs.

That is 2 full sets per year, and 4 drivers or putters.

I wish limits were not nessesary.

I will stand by this policy, but on a "judgement call" basis. I have been struggling with a solution. I want very much to keep it free. This just gives me a number I can point to if someone gets out of hand, or if I get any complaints. If I do not have a limit set (as before) it is too easy to abuse. Exceptions can be made to anything to accomodate circumstances, just ask.

If you are buying / selling a set clubs more than these rules allow, I feel it is more likely a hobyist clubmaker selling off his experiments than a player trying to find his game. That may not be true in some cases, but I have to play the percentages here. Besides if it is the latter, the player would benefit more from lessons. As I said there is always ebay.

This is a FREE service... within limits. Another option is pay as you go. Anyone interetsed in that?

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 03:47 PM

Dan, you know when I sell a club or set of clubs on this board most often the money I get from the sale is recycled in the stores of your advertisers.
The people who sell the most clubs on this board are probably the ones who support your advertisers the most, because we buy the most equipment. In my opinion that IS pay as you go.
Personally I think if someone is complaining about others selling too many clubs on the board they should get a life. There are bigger problems in the world than myself, Rico, Big Easy and others changing iron sets more than twice a year.

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 03:54 PM

The only one's that will be hurt are the buyers; potential new golfers or those just looking for some quality clubs without paying a lot.

Not at all. The sellers who use this board to move product will be most affected by this. That is by design. Many of you are completely unaware of the number of clubmakers who try to use this board for free advertising. Some of it gets stopped, and they argue that there are no set limits. Now there are.

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 04:04 PM

The people who sell the most clubs on this board are probably the ones who support your advertisers the most

You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with protecting my advertisers. It is about keeping the purpose of this forum pure. It IS NOT for dealers and clubmakers to post thier wares. It IS for people to exchange clubs. Limits have been set that will only affect a VERY small handfull of habitual traders (sorry guys) and ALL the dealers who look at this board as a free ride.

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 04:07 PM

I agree Dan that one of us is missing the point. But I don't think it's me.

**RICO** · 04-03-2003 04:10 PM

Your website - your rules!

However I do not appreciate the veiled accusation that I and other equipment freaks using this board are either really in business, or worse be told by you that we shouldn't be buying all this stuff but should take lessons instead. How arrogant!

Do me a favour and remove all my posts. If you can't or won't do that, I'll remove all content myself.

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 04:11 PM

It is a shame that some abusers have spoiled it for the good guys. You should try moderating a popular forum someday. Tough decisions have to be made on what is and is not allowed. This does not happen if there are no problems to solve.

**Michael** · 04-03-2003 04:15 PM

Why not post the names of the people you know who are dealers and clubmakers that are taking advantage of the site. As someone has stated earlier, what is stopping them from just subscribing again under a new name???

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 04:15 PM

shouldn't be buying all this stuff but should take lessons instead. How arrogant!

No offence intended. I was not trying to be arrogant. It is a fact that many people who look for game improvement would benefit more from lessons than new equipment.

I am not mentioning ANY names here. The only time names will ever be mentioned are those who have had suffiicient justifiable complaints by multiple buyers. So far that has happened 2 times in the history of this forum (both in the last 4 months). These would be considered extreme cases.

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 04:26 PM

Dan, just to make one thing perfectly clear. I do not believe that new equipment will make anyone a better golfer and I don't think too many other regular equipment traders feel that way either.
I just like trying and playing different equipment and I think they do too. It's one of the ways guys like Rico, Andre and myself can gain the knowledge about the various types of equipment so that we can answer questions about equipment posted in your other forums.
You've undoubtably noticed as have I that the folks on this board who buy and sell the most equipment are often also the most regular participants in the discussion forums as well. That's because we love golf, and the equipment that goes along with it - not necessarily because we are looking for the magic bow and arrow.
Too bad, this was a fun place to hang out. Now I guess it's back to the Golf Equipment Afficionados forum...

**cruxradio** · 04-03-2003 04:35 PM

I'd like to ask specifically what complaints people have had to bring about this policy?

Personally I like logging on here every couple of days and seeing a multitude of new golf equipment ads to browse through. I want to judge for myself what is or isn't worthwhile.

By rigidly enforcing these restrictions we're going to end up seeing only 1 or 2 new posts per day. That being said, it is at the discetion of the forum moderators on how much to enforce these limits.. that can be a good thing or a bad thing.

This may seem harsh right now, but in a couple of months time everything should seem back to normal with fewer problems for the mods resulting.

**Chieflongtee** · 04-03-2003 04:42 PM

Dan. With all due respect I believe this new rule to be a deterrent and not the solution. I also know that you put in an awful lot of hours 7 days a week and it is not always easy to please everyone and all.
I do not have stats on the following statement but I would say that 90% of the posters on this forum first registered because they had one set of clubs to sell or to buy and then became "posters" after a while.
I also believe this forum to be viable mainly because of advertisers and "posters". No traffic no posters less advertisers and so on.
This new rule will in my opinion encourage multiple identities. Here is why and how. 1)I have a set to sell I calll up my buddy and ask him to register and put up a classified.2) I create an identity at home one at work.3) I can use and create as many email adresses as I want.
I could also edit my post as much as I want and add to it as long as it is not locked(still within the new rules).
Do you see the dilemna? I know the next statement won't be popular with others but I believe there is only one solution besides banning. There should be an initial fee to post a classified for non-members of Ottawagolf. So long. André.

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 04:43 PM

I'd like to ask specifically what complaints people have had to bring about this policy?

This is not public information. When I get a private message it is held in confidence.

By rigidly enforcing these restrictions we're going to end up seeing only 1 or 2 new posts per day. That being said, it is at the discetion of the forum moderators on how much to enforce these limits.. that can be a good thing or a bad thing.

As I said, this rule will not be rigidly enforced. I am planning on dealing with issues that come up on a case by case basis, and this gives me a tool to use if circumstances warrant. That is all.

I look at it like a "rolling stop at a stop sign" Most of the time you will not get charged for this sort of thing. If you cause an accidednt, the rolling stop will count against you.

This may seem harsh right now, but in a couple of months time everything should seem back to normal with fewer problems for the mods resulting.

I hope so.

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 04:53 PM

Do you see the dilemna?

Not sure how I could miss it.

I know the next statement won't be popular with others but I believe there is only one solution besides banning. There should be an initial fee to post a classified for non-members of Ottawagolf

I have tossed this idea around and I firmly believe that this would do more damage to this forum than the new rule we are discussing.

**Chieflongtee** · 04-03-2003 04:56 PM

Are we keeping you busy? Why not run a poll on the the initial fee?

**Kilroy** · 04-03-2003 05:03 PM

17 posts in one thread in an hour and a half. It seems I have stirred up a fuss.

Private Classified ads on OG are and will remain FREE, within limits.

**jeffc** · 04-03-2003 05:04 PM

but I don't see why there needs to be a limit. Maybe I am missing something here, but the vast majority of the people on here are legit...buying and trying clubs is a hobby. For a few bad apples and a lot of raised backs, I'm not sure this is worth it.

I also like looking through the reems of clubs available as I hate paying full price + taxes for anything. If I can get it used all the better.

If this is going to drive people away (which it appears it has) then I suggest re-thinking your policy.

**The Shtick** · 04-03-2003 05:05 PM

ok.... my 2 cents and my 2 cents only.....

I do not buy, sell, or trade clubs here. So, from an outsiders view what I think Dan has done with this forum is very good. Sure, people have their right to their own opinion on how to get this to work, but Dan is a person who is very open to suggestions and he trys to accomodate every person who visits OttawaGolf.com.

Have a heart and let rules be rules. If you don't like it then you do have your options...

**jeffc** · 04-03-2003 05:07 PM

we do have options...but to be honest, driving away the people that make the site what it is shouldn't be one of them. I'm sure Dan's intentions are good, but this seems to have struck a nerve.

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 05:10 PM

To The Schtick:

"I do not buy, sell, or trade clubs here."

Well that would make your opinion on the classified rules pretty much useless then wouldn't it because the new rules don't affect you at all...

"If you don't like it then you do have your options..."

I agree, and voicing our opinions and concerns is one of those options, which is exactly what we are doing.

**Chieflongtee** · 04-03-2003 05:15 PM

Dan. Why don't you go home and have a

. Even if I don't like the new ruling this forum is still the greatest golf forum of all.

:

**The Shtick** · 04-03-2003 05:15 PM

...as a member of this site I do get to voice my opinion.

**1972Apex** · 04-03-2003 05:18 PM

Never said you couldn't voice your opinion Shtick, just that I did not think it was valid.

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